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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > What is marriage? | Forum Quick Jump
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/9/2004 8:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | Well, didn't this topic explode?!
Uh, what do I want to say? How about this. I think everyone here agrees that homosexual sex is sin. I think the issue that divides us is whether we should outlaw sin. I say no. The standard should not be sin and holiness. If it was we would all be on death row. The standard should be: does the activity in question deprive another of freedom? Only activities that deprive others of freedom should we not be free to commit. But then again I'm a libertarian, and that means I'm nuts. If your a Republican, you probably think it's ok for the government to regulate your personal life. If your a Democrat, you probably think it's ok for the government to regulate your finances. I personally think both ideas are crazy, but that's just me.
I don't know who I'm responding to cause I'm too lazy to look back right now, but someone said something about allowing civil union but not marriage for gays. My question is would there be any difference between civil union and marriage? Is this separate but equal politics? I think our country has already gone over this. If one group wants to exclude another but give them "equal treatment", something is fishy.
I think there's a pattern in recent Western history. Freedom - prosperity - consolidated power - freedoms restricted - revolution - freedom... To me, it's pretty obvious we're in the freedoms restricted phase. I say we get out of the vicious circle. Let's use freedom wisely and not use it to restrict the freedoms of others, even if we think they are making the wrong choice. It's their choice to make. They are people too. Yeah, God gave us government. Let's govern the way He does. What is more right? Outlawing sin (decreasing our moral potential) or outlawing the taking of freedom (increasing our moral potential). Outlawing gay marriage or changing the constitution won't change hearts. At least not the ones that the amendment seeks to change.
I've got an idea. Let's make it unconstitutional to pray to the wrong way. We could make it illegal to pray to Allah. Then we will be a righteous country because sin is illegal. Religious liberty (which includes the ability to engage in homosexuality and be free to marry) sucks! Let's ditch it, and force people to be moral.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/10/2004 12:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Let's use freedom wisely and not use it to restrict the freedoms of others, even if we think they are making the wrong choice. It's their choice to make. They are people too. Yeah, God gave us government. Let's govern the way He does. What is more right? Outlawing sin (decreasing our moral potential) or outlawing the taking of freedom (increasing our moral potential).
Sahid, I like the way you think! Amen -- let's use freedom wisely and allow EVERYONE freedom to make the wrong choice just as God allows us freewill.
quote:
Jo-Anne (Official member of the "Judge not" crowd...er, at least I try )
John, the truth is that we all do judge and for those who have judged you while preaching not to judge, well, all I can say is that they too could learn to be cautious in how they approach those who think like you and others. The truth is, and I agree, we all need to be concientious of our judging mechanism. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 2:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Matthew 5:32 "but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
This is all Jesus said about divorce and there's not much "wiggle" room here.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/10/2004 4:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
....found it interesting that the original sin was judgement; eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Or so one person says. Get other opinions too. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/10/2004 4:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
This is all Jesus said about divorce and there's not much "wiggle" room here.
There is NO wiggle room.
But there is grace, within the structure of discipline that includes repentance and absolution, discipleship, etc. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 4:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
This is all Jesus said about divorce and there's not much "wiggle" room here.
There is NO wiggle room.
But there is grace, within the structure of discipline that includes repentance and absolution, discipleship, etc.
I think it's better to aim high and thus not need the grace.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/10/2004 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | That's dirty-mouthed, Zach.
Divorce is painful, and the serious hard work needed to both recover from it and to prepare for another are a huge task; one that needs a whole outward support to accomplish.
So, penance is "wiggle room?" I don't think so. Divorce and remarriage -- not easy everyone says. And ask the kids of divorce what its like. No light matter!
:-( | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/10/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I didn't say it was a light matter. You've treated it with more lightness than I. Seriously, ask the kids. Does remarriage help? Not in my experience.
Ooops. I stand corrected.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/10/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Matthew 5:32 "but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
This is all Jesus said about divorce and there's not much "wiggle" room here.
Even worse. My understanding is that the the "except for unchastity" bit refers to unchastity in the betrothal period not after the actual marriage.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/11/2004 1:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
This is all Jesus said about divorce and there's not much "wiggle" room here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is NO wiggle room.
Except for the first two divorces. But after that, then no wiggle room.
Oops! I forgot the Elizabeth Taylor and Mickey Rooney Exceptions.
Child Stars
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/11/2004 1:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast, sometime you should post pictures of you and Semeia's "jumping over the stick" ceremony.
That would be a culturally educational lesson for those of us stuck in the post-Agrarian age. 
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/11/2004 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
...the issue isn't whether sin should be outlawed. It's which sins are serious and which don't really matter.
I doubt that this is sound pastoral wisdom.
What sin's "DON'T...MATTER?"
Is that biblical? Show me where it is written? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/11/2004 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
I would say that homosexual sex is as much of a sin as divorced and remarried sex. And I agree that we should not outlaw sin. However, I am not sure that the issue at hand is whether we should outlaw sin. I think the issue is that some folks want to put homosexual sex in a completely different category than divorced and remarried sex. Nobody today says that divorced and remarried folks should split up and become celibate but that is exactly what they would say about a gay couple.
This, in my view, is hypocritical. Jesus is crystal clear about divorce and remarriage - it is the sin of adultery. But Jesus says nothing about homosexuality and not much is said in the rest of the bible either. There are references in the old testament along with all sorts of other rules nobody follows today and there is no prohibition about it in the new testament.
Iconoclast is being POLITICAL by ultimately suggesting that sins don't matter because there are lots of sins. Jesus says in the Gospels "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." But human politics says "Its not as bad as other things, or no worse, and anyways you can't be perfect: that's just an old testement view. But Christ came to fulfill the law and not to destroy it. and that often involves suffering: as in Bonhoeffer's statement that "When Christ calls a man He bids him come and die."
AND... there is no council by the Church that people who are married a second time should divorce (to cease sinning as Iconoclast is plainly claiming that they are doing by remaining married, and having sex). Their sin is over. Staying married and practicing their married life together is not sin. BUT... The Church plainly says that homosexual persons who are continuing in their sin are to stop sinning.
How can Iconoclast be sincere when he says: "about homosexuality ... not much is said in the rest of the bible either." The Bible says plenty in what it does say.
If one is a rule-onto-one's-self ("Did God really say that?") then one can allow anything.
:-( | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/11/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | PoW
AND... there is no council by the Church that people who are married a second time should divorce (to cease sinning as Iconoclast is plainly claiming that they are doing by remaining married, and having sex). Their sin is over. Staying married and practicing their married life together is not sin. BUT... The Church plainly says that homosexual persons who are continuing in their sin are to stop sinning.
Iconoclast
You say this as though the "Church" has more authority than what Jesus says or the bible.
But I don't even know what "Church" you are talking about. I mean whose "Church"? Your church? The Roman Catholic church? The ETS? The church of the Latter Day Saints?
And if you say Jesus' Church then I would interpret that to mean that you are really talking about all the things that the amalgam of churches have said that you agree with. But if this is so, why don't you just say that it is your opinion?
Jesus' words on the topic of divorce and remarriage are quite clear. Just because some group of folks get together, call themselves a church and then pronounce that something is not sin when Jesus says it is has not meaning to me except as another example of humans operating out of their own knowledge of good and evil.
Now, if these same humans want to allow some sin within their community because they feel it is more helpful than not - I think this is appropriate. This goes back to the question of what sins are we going to criminalize or simply look down on. But why isn't it then an appropriate analogy to compare the sin of divorce and remarriage (which is adultery, which has to do with sex, on-going sex in the relationship) which we choose to allow, with the sin of homosexual sex. Certainly this analogy at the very least shows that it is within the communities perview to look at this issue in terms of what is more helpful or less helpful rather than taking some absolutist stand based on a few verses of the old law in the bible. Especially when we have discounted so much of the old law already.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/11/2004 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia, Iconoclast and others,
What is your view of divorce with the exception of adultery and abandonment being the reason? Should or can a married couple get divorced if they tried professional counseling and are still very unhappy and miserable with each other? With no physical, but plenty of mental abuse, would you give them your blessing to seek a divorce in order to be set free from the pain? If very little love is shared, would it be just for the couple to be left to suffer?
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/11/2004 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid
It'd be interesting to know what leads you to think the except for unchastity thing is about betrothal.
Iconoclast
Here is a previous post by Greg Boyd on the topic:
Previous post by GregBoyd:
Brandon, I think the attempt to identify divorce as adulterous in an of itself is clever, but unsuccessful. Consider that Jesus says:
Matt. 5:31-32 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Its about sex with someone other than the first partner.
On the "exception" clause, its interesting to note that Mark doesn't include it. Many scholars have argued that the reason Matthew DOES is because his audience is the most Jewish. The debate of the day was about the grounds for a "justified" divorce. The conservatives said only adultery was a ground. The liberals said it could be anything. It would be uncharacteristic of Jesus to side with one school against another, without saying so, and then speaking against divorce in unqualified terms by going back to the beginning (Adam and Eve) and concluding "let no man..." The only way to see Jesus as doing what he did everywhere else -- viz. showing that both sides of a dilemma were sinful -- is if the "unchasity" (pornea) he is referring to had to do with the betrothal period.
In ancient Judaism, a husband and wife were legally married about a year before they consumated the marriage. It was the betrothal period. During this time, a man or woman could annul their marriage (as Joseph was going to do ) if they were unfaithful.
In this light, we might hear Jesus saying that all divorce and remarriage involves sin -- except, of course, if one of the partners is unchaste (which can mean anything from full sex to anying morally indecent) during the betrothal period.
I suspect this is the best reading. ALL divorce, once the marriage is consumated, is sin, and all remarriage involves adultery. It happens because of the hardness of people's hearts.
Yet, Jesus is not thereby trying to tighten the belt on the OT permission to divorce and remarry. He is saying, to both the conservative and liberals parties... "don't feel justified in divorce or remarriage. If it happens, it 's always a break from God's ideal."
Blessings
Greg
Iconoclast
I think this is a sound argument and reflects some of the issues and thinking on this thread. The betrothal period was consider to be an "official" marriage in that day. This thinking then supports the notion that Jesus sees the actual marriage as the two "becoming one flesh" when the marriage is consummated - not some "official" custom of the people at that time.
Thus, once the "two have become one" for whatever reason, they are one - joined together - and any break from that is a break from God's ideal - it is sin ("hamartia" - missing the mark).
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/11/2004 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
You say this as though the "Church" has more authority than what Jesus says or the bible.
Response: My point there, Icon, is that YOU set YOURSELF up as a church of one. Defying the Bible! John Earp supplied sufficient scriptural guidance, and you blew it off!
quote:
Originally posted by Iconoclast
Now, if ... humans want to allow some sin within their community because they feel it is more helpful than not - I think this is appropriate.
Response: The Community of Christ (The Church) calls all to repentance, and perfection in Christ. The standards are eschatological: seemingly unreachable in this life -- but proven to be reachable by those who have attained perfection, by the Spirit.
In the Church there is not cheep grace, just the Cross.
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