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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/12/2004 11:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I was emphasizing abusive relationships; damaging relationships - not relationships that get a little rough now and then, or require work.
This song seems to be talking more about people who use each other, get what they want, then make like a banana and split (pun intended)  (trying to be funny).
Jo-Anne
Someone from the “free love” generation might disagree with you if they had been used by someone for a good time and dumped. They might feel a deep need for more then just a little work. They might have found it to be very damaging and abusive and it could actually be part of their current marriage problems. Mater of fact, I think pre-marital sex can be very damaging and most Christians regret and repent of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/12/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | I do not judge anyone who seeks a divorce, (even if it was my own wife). I forgive and love like God forgives and loves me. I take issue with those that advocate divorce for others as being Biblical. It is not so much the sin of missing the mark (divorce) that I take offense with, (we are not superheroes) what offends me is those that advocate the changing of the target (which is to love). I will let the Biblical truths be revealed by our own God giving conscience, the Spirit will convict us. As Christian leaders, we are responsible to speak these truths so couples can not plead ignorance to God. I think it should be let known that it is wrong to divorce; it is the devil himself sabotaging your marriage by even playing the card as an option. Most people do not wake up one morning and out of the blue decide to get a divorce. Most likely the seed was planted by the devil long before and has been played out in their mind over and over again until they finally bite into the apple, buy into the lie. If it is God’s will for us to stay married, what do you think the enemy wants?
Blessings to all,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/12/2004 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
I do not judge anyone who seeks a divorce, (even if it was my own wife). I forgive and love like God forgives and loves me. I take issue with those that advocate divorce for others as being Biblical. It is not so much the sin of missing the mark (divorce) that I take offense with, (we are not superheroes) what offends me is those that advocate the changing of the target (which is to love). I will let the Biblical truths be revealed by our own God giving conscience, the Spirit will convict us. As Christian leaders, we are responsible to speak these truths so couples can not plead ignorance to God. I think it should be let known that it is wrong to divorce; it is the devil himself sabotaging your marriage by even playing the card as an option. Most people do not wake up one morning and out of the blue decide to get a divorce. Most likely the seed was planted by the devil long before and has been played out in their mind over and over again until they finally bite into the apple, buy into the lie. If it is God’s will for us to stay married, what do you think the enemy wants?
Blessings to all,
Mark
Mark,
You know that I have a great deal of respect for your insights. I hear your heart about marriage and divorce. I know that the very best in God's eyes is a marriage that "stands the test of time".
You are so right Mark. Most people do not wake up one morning, and decide to get a divorce; unless of course they have been struggling for a very long time, and finally make that decision one morning when they wake up. I do not believe (most times) that it is made without a lot of angst. I do not believe that going for a divorce is what God designed or desired - but then we really have messed up His design and desire with free will. You cannot make another person change, and depending on the marriage, you possibly should not stay with the marriage because divorce is not designed or desired by God. God did not desire to destroy Sodomn and Gommorah either. It was not His design to destroy the people of Ninevah, and thankfully He didn't have to. I believe that the Father understands; is far more compassionate than we will ever be, in understanding marriage and divorce. We need to be careful that we do not judge people because they had to leave a marriage, or even divorce. I know you're not the judgemental type.
I think what you are doing, if I may say this, is trying to protect the sanctity of marriage - to underline that, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is a covenant relationship; a sacred trust. But sometimes there are situations that are beyond one person's control in a marriage; the covenant is broken, and it is not always restored. Alas, the incredible gift, and painful reality of free will.
I know that I know, that I know - that He (my Father) will never divorce me. He is ABLE to keep that which He has committed until that day when we will be joined with Him as His bride. HE is ABLE. We are not always able, and I do not believe that means we have failed necessarily. It may mean that in order to be safe, or to keep those we love safe (physically and/or emotionally safe), that we must make a choice that would be less than ideal if the marriage were not in the state it was in. If a relationship is abusive - the ideal is separation and divorce, unless the one who is hurting sees what he/she is doing in the marriage, and repents. Not only is it ideal in that case, but the Father would approve of that decision. He would tenderly care for each person; the abused and the abuser, and perhaps even restore the marriage, or better yet; transform it.
The Father always upholds His covenant with us, and we are to covenant with Him. He knows that we are not always able, or that we should not always hold to a covenant relationship that is damaging both people, and perhaps children at all. In that case, the covenant has already been broken. I am an optimist. I believe in forgiveness, in faithfulness, longsuffering...probably to a fault. I understand your plea to remember the sacredness of the marriage covenant - but remember, it is not always possible - and we should never feel that we have missed God's "best" for our lives if we cannot "make a marriage work." I believe that the Father can heal, restore, transform - but He does not do those things without our co-operation. Real love is not coerced; either in our covenant with the Father, or in a marriage relationship. It needs to be freely given, and received - or it is not love.
Please hear what I'm saying here Mark. I don't think you would disagree if you were face to face with a friend in an abusive relationship. And I know that you would want them to know that the Father was not angry because they needed to leave. We do not have a Father like that. He looks just like Jesus.
The song by Paul Simon is an extreme, careless attitude toward relationships. It is sad, but much of the world views relationships from what they can get - not what they can give.
I'm not a superhero. But I am, and always will be a child of the King.
 Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/12/2004 5:28 PM (GMT -6) | | The greatest love stories ever told are the ones that had so much to overcome.
GLORY TO GOD! It was only through my brokenness -- that I learned what it means to be WHOLE.
No, God does not throw away what is broken. He does not throw away the handicapped, the old, the sick, the sinners nor broken hearted lovers. He uses them all. He mends, He heals, He restores, He fixes. He blows life into the dead, He is the God where all things are possible. Never give up hope, keep faith alive - keep love alive.
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1Heart
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Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/12/2004 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
The greatest love stories ever told are the ones that had so much to overcome.
GLORY TO GOD! It was only through my brokenness -- that I learned what it means to be WHOLE.
No, God does not throw away what is broken. He does not throw away the handicapped, the old, the sick, the sinners nor broken hearted lovers. He uses them all. He mends, He heals, He restores, He fixes. He blows life into the dead, He is the God where all things are possible. Never give up hope, keep faith alive - keep love alive.
I agree. He does not throw away the divorced either. We are precious to Him. It is not what we do, or don't do, that makes us righteous. He is all our righteousness. He is able to restore. He is the God where all things are possible, but He is also the God where all things may not be possible - because of free will.
I appreciate your thoughts, your insights, and your heart in this. I guess I would like to put a word in for those who have tried, and have had to separate; not wanting to. We need to remember them. We could be one of them. How would we want to be view; to be treated?
You've given me more to think about - but I think you may misunderstand what I'm saying about this; but that's alright - it's about "ideas, not people" right (if that's possible)?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/13/2004 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast,
quote:
Previous post by GregBoyd:
Brandon, I think the attempt to identify divorce as adulterous in an of itself is clever, but unsuccessful. Consider that Jesus says:
Matt. 5:31-32 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Its about sex with someone other than the first partner.
On the "exception" clause, its interesting to note that Mark doesn't include it. Many scholars have argued that the reason Matthew DOES is because his audience is the most Jewish. The debate of the day was about the grounds for a "justified" divorce. The conservatives said only adultery was a ground. The liberals said it could be anything. It would be uncharacteristic of Jesus to side with one school against another, without saying so, and then speaking against divorce in unqualified terms by going back to the beginning (Adam and Eve) and concluding "let no man..." The only way to see Jesus as doing what he did everywhere else -- viz. showing that both sides of a dilemma were sinful -- is if the "unchasity" (pornea) he is referring to had to do with the betrothal period.
In ancient Judaism, a husband and wife were legally married about a year before they consumated the marriage. It was the betrothal period. During this time, a man or woman could annul their marriage (as Joseph was going to do ) if they were unfaithful.
In this light, we might hear Jesus saying that all divorce and remarriage involves sin -- except, of course, if one of the partners is unchaste (which can mean anything from full sex to anying morally indecent) during the betrothal period.
I suspect this is the best reading. ALL divorce, once the marriage is consumated, is sin, and all remarriage involves adultery. It happens because of the hardness of people's hearts.
Yet, Jesus is not thereby trying to tighten the belt on the OT permission to divorce and remarry. He is saying, to both the conservative and liberals parties... "don't feel justified in divorce or remarriage. If it happens, it 's always a break from God's ideal."
I think there is another solution besides Greg's which puts Christ at odds with both the conservatives and the liberals. What if Christ is saying that the conservatives were right about fornication being the only Mosaic grounds for divorce, but even they were wrong for not realizing that divorce on those grounds (fornication) was STILL due to hardness of heart - because even such divorce indicates an inability to forgive. For Christ made it clear that, "show no mercy, receive no mercy."
This reading seems less strained to me and makes the same point. To suppose that we are to infer something about the betrothal period from the text seems like a stretch.
Of course, the account of Joseph and Mary indicates that the betrothal point is a valid one.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 8/13/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | .
I hear you, Brother.
sparknheart wrote: quote:
The greatest love stories ever told are the ones that had so much to overcome.
GLORY TO GOD! It was only through my brokenness -- that I learned what it means to be WHOLE.
.
May God bless & protect you; and,
those you love....
<><
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/16/2004 8:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
sparknheart wrote: [quote]
The greatest love stories ever told are the ones that had so much to overcome.
.
Something to think about...there is more than one way to be an overcomer. Sometimes being an overcomer means knowing when to "fold 'em" as Kenny Rogers would say. I'm not being facitious, or taking responsibility or committment lightly, but recognizing that we do not live in an ideal world, where people respond. Sometimes, by the grace of God, we need to take the escape route He has offered - without guilt or condemnation. My mother was one of those courageous women who did that. If she hadn't, I might not have been sitting here typing today.
(She's in heaven now).
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
I realize that I probably shouldn't have used those words from a Kenny Rogers' tune: "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em..." I should know better. That is the world's view of relationships; it's just that I've seen such pain when people should have separated - but didn't - "for the sake of the children" or for...
I've also heard, as well as experienced the well meaning advice, or insights, of believers - who really did want to help, but actually ended up hurting more than helping. Sometimes we really do need to be quiet and just listen, or to realize that each circumstance; each marriage is so individual - that we cannot assume that everything can be fixed (or that it can't); that one person isn't trying (or that they are)...
I think I am realizing more and more, that judgement just doesn't help anyone - that judgement isn't our "role." We really are there to walk along side those who are hurting, and to remind them of how loved they are by the Father, and by ourselves, to listen, to be a friend, to "bind up the brokenhearted" and to fan into flame, even a spark in their relationship with the Father. The Holy Spirit is very capable of convicting of sin, of transforming lives. He is able.
Forgive me for using that phrase, "know when to fold 'em". It is too flippant for a subject like this, and that is not my heart. I take marriage very seriously, and that is not what I meant to communicate.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 8/17/2004 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | .Amen, Amen, Amen.
Truly, Jo-Anne -- your use of the lyrics "Know when to fold 'em" was a (gentle & lovingly used) reality-check.
There are marriages that simply must be escaped, for the physical safety (or emotional health) of a spouse, or children.
May God Bless you, for always having to the courage to speak out
for what is ethical & just -- with your special brand of compassion, and love...
<><
Sahid wrote:
quote:
Jo-Anne, you always speak in love, so it's hard to take what you say the wrong way.
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 8:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
.Amen, Amen, Amen.
Truly, Jo-Anne -- your use of the lyrics "Know when to fold 'em" was a (gentle & lovingly used) reality-check.
There are marriages that simply must be escaped, for the physical safety (or emotional health) of a spouse, or children.
May God Bless you, for always having to the courage to speak out
for what is ethical & just -- with your special brand of compassion, and love...
<><
Sahid wrote:
quote:
Jo-Anne, you always speak in love, so it's hard to take what you say the wrong way.
.
Thank you both for the encouragement. I think there are a lot of understanding hearts on the board. It's a good place to be here.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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barryatk
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 8/20/2004 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
sparknheart wrote: [quote]
The greatest love stories ever told are the ones that had so much to overcome.
.
Something to think about...there is more than one way to be an overcomer. Sometimes being an overcomer means knowing when to "fold 'em" as Kenny Rogers would say. I'm not being facitious, or taking responsibility or committment lightly, but recognizing that we do not live in an ideal world, where people respond. Sometimes, by the grace of God, we need to take the escape route He has offered - without guilt or condemnation. My mother was one of those courageous women who did that. If she hadn't, I might not have been sitting here typing today.
(She's in heaven now).
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
I realize that I probably shouldn't have used those words from a Kenny Rogers' tune: "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em..." I should know better. That is the world's view of relationships; it's just that I've seen such pain when people should have separated - but didn't - "for the sake of the children" or for...
I've also heard, as well as experienced the well meaning advice, or insights, of believers - who really did want to help, but actually ended up hurting more than helping. Sometimes we really do need to be quiet and just listen, or to realize that each circumstance; each marriage is so individual - that we cannot assume that everything can be fixed (or that it can't); that one person isn't trying (or that they are)...
I think I am realizing more and more, that judgement just doesn't help anyone - that judgement isn't our "role." We really are there to walk along side those who are hurting, and to remind them of how loved they are by the Father, and by ourselves, to listen, to be a friend, to "bind up the brokenhearted" and to fan into flame, even a spark in their relationship with the Father. The Holy Spirit is very capable of convicting of sin, of transforming lives. He is able.
Forgive me for using that phrase, "know when to fold 'em". It is too flippant for a subject like this, and that is not my heart. I take marriage very seriously, and that is not what I meant to communicate.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Barryatk says:
My first post to this sight was on this exact subject. Now I am again blessed to hear so many good hearts speaking with love. The fact that they have varied opinions os acceptable. Where I get into some problem is when anyone announces "Divorce is Breaking a scriptural command". I am in a difficult marriage and it's not made any calmer by bible-thumpers who think they have this one down, wanting to thump me in advance for even imagining I may one day seek a divorce. I wish there was a class in the church along the lines of when to seek a dovorce. I do agree with Dr. Laura Schlessinger who says three reasons are addiction, adultery, or abuse. She speaks not as a bible scholar, but as a very moral and concerned and experienced counselor. Who of us hasn't known one or some people that were living in a nearly literal hell, and holding the thought that God hates divorce (and maybe would hate me if I got one), while being ebcouraged to stay right there, trying to pray and believe and claim that God would change things for the better? I sure claim no expertise here. Just some hard experience. Some church friends I've known...some being pressured to stay in it and others resisting what seemed to me right attempts to encourage them to get out. Now one pastor's daughter has finally decided to get divorced after being impregnated four times...and facing a life as single mom with far reduced chances of being able to even survive financially, much less to gain her visions of ministry. I can only wish, she had had someone of influence speak into her life years ago and help her wake up to really see how her husband was being abusive. I do pray that God would bless this lady. I know He can and wants to. I know she'll be facing some in the church world who will reject and critcize, maybe even condemn her even though she seems so completely victimized. I pray too that my attitude toward those divorced would be gentle and loving, not judgmental or accusatory.
Blessings All,
Barryatk | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/20/2004 6:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Every great love story has within it, the element of antagonism. There is always something or someone that seeks to separate, or keep the lovers apart. There is always some obstacle the lovers must overcome in order to be together.
The greatest love story ever told also contains the element of tragedy; something terrible happened in the story! The first hint of tragedy occurs in John 111 which says, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." Luke tell us that the babe was born in a manger, wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in manger because there was no room in the inn! The tragic element reaches it’s climax when Jesus is crucified by the very ones he came to save! This love story, the greatest love story ever told, also contains the element of sacrifice. Sacrifice is that element exemplified by the giving up of something for the sake of the love! God gave His Son! He was willing to give Jesus because of His love for man! The record says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave. . . " Oh! What a sacrifice it was! He gave! It was a personal gift; He gave "His." The Son and the Father had never been separated, but He gave "His." The Father did not take from someone else to give; He gave His own! It was a unique gift, in that it was the only one of it’s kind. There was and there is no other like Jesus! It was the ultimate gift, in that it was His best. In Jesus, God gave His own, His only, His best and His all! And that’s the way true love is! True love involves sacrifice!
In some eyes, love’s sacrifice is marriage. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/20/2004 8:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Every great love story has within it, the element of antagonism. There is always something or someone that seeks to separate, or keep the lovers apart. There is always some obstacle the lovers must overcome in order to be together.
The greatest love story ever told also contains the element of tragedy; something terrible happened in the story! The first hint of tragedy occurs in John 111 which says, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." Luke tell us that the babe was born in a manger, wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in manger because there was no room in the inn! The tragic element reaches it’s climax when Jesus is crucified by the very ones he came to save! This love story, the greatest love story ever told, also contains the element of sacrifice. Sacrifice is that element exemplified by the giving up of something for the sake of the love! God gave His Son! He was willing to give Jesus because of His love for man! The record says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave. . . " Oh! What a sacrifice it was! He gave! It was a personal gift; He gave "His." The Son and the Father had never been separated, but He gave "His." The Father did not take from someone else to give; He gave His own! It was a unique gift, in that it was the only one of it’s kind. There was and there is no other like Jesus! It was the ultimate gift, in that it was His best. In Jesus, God gave His own, His only, His best and His all! And that’s the way true love is! True love involves sacrifice!
In some eyes, love’s sacrifice is marriage.
Mark,
Absolutely. Love involves sacrifice. But abuse is not love, and someone who is truly being abused in a relationship needs to love themselves first; which means finding a place of safety - so they can love their spouse. I was reading something the other day about codependancy. I have a friend who is in a codependant relationship. The thing that really struck me in what I was reading is that it is not just the codependant person that is being hurt, but the abuser as well, because they are never called to be accountable for their behaviour. They are allowed to go on hurting, and that is not love either. Jesus' love is one that calls people to be accountable for their behaviour. It does not condone abuse. Being abused is not sacrificial love - it is codependancy. Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life. He did it willingly, and for a purpose - to restore, to redeem. He was God, as well as fully human. He endured this pain and suffering for the joy set before Him. I don't believe you can equate staying in an abusive marriage to this kind of sacrifice. That is not sacrificial love.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
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| Posted 8/21/2004 2:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Mark,
Absolutely. Love involves sacrifice. But abuse is not love, and someone who is truly being abused in a relationship needs to love themselves first; which means finding a place of safety - so they can love their spouse. I was reading something the other day about codependancy. I have a friend who is in a codependant relationship. The thing that really struck me in what I was reading is that it is not just the codependant person that is being hurt, but the abuser as well, because they are never called to be accountable for their behaviour. They are allowed to go on hurting, and that is not love either. Jesus' love is one that calls people to be accountable for their behaviour. It does not condone abuse. Being abused is not sacrificial love - it is codependancy. Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life. He did it willingly, and for a purpose - to restore, to redeem. He was God, as well as fully human. He endured this pain and suffering for the joy set before Him. I don't believe you can equate staying in an abusive marriage to this kind of sacrifice. That is not sacrificial love.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Ann,
Some people use the word “abuse” rather loosely. One could claim to be abused if their spouse has an on going platonic relationship with the opposite sex. One could claim abuse if their spouse took long trips without them. Some spouses could claim abuse if their partner communicated divorce as an option to resolve conflict.
How can you say after just seeing the movie the Passion that, “Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life.” Wow, talk about emotional abuse, he was sweating blood; and the beating he suffered was quite the demonstration of physical abuse. If you know someone that is being abused more then Jesus, please by all means help him or her seek a divorce.
“Co-Dependency” is a term over used and abused in marriage relationship discussions. It derived from dysfunctional families that have chemical dependent individuals. Family members can suffer a “co-dependency”. I’m happy  to say I have a healthy “co-dependency” with the Triune God and my wife.
Peace
Mark
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/21/2004 9:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Mark,
Absolutely. Love involves sacrifice. But abuse is not love, and someone who is truly being abused in a relationship needs to love themselves first; which means finding a place of safety - so they can love their spouse. I was reading something the other day about codependancy. I have a friend who is in a codependant relationship. The thing that really struck me in what I was reading is that it is not just the codependant person that is being hurt, but the abuser as well, because they are never called to be accountable for their behaviour. They are allowed to go on hurting, and that is not love either. Jesus' love is one that calls people to be accountable for their behaviour. It does not condone abuse. Being abused is not sacrificial love - it is codependancy. Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life. He did it willingly, and for a purpose - to restore, to redeem. He was God, as well as fully human. He endured this pain and suffering for the joy set before Him. I don't believe you can equate staying in an abusive marriage to this kind of sacrifice. That is not sacrificial love.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Ann,
Some people use the word “abuse” rather loosely. One could claim to be abused if their spouse has an on going platonic relationship with the opposite sex. One could claim abuse if their spouse took long trips without them. Some spouses could claim abuse if their partner communicated divorce as an option to resolve conflict.
How can you say after just seeing the movie the Passion that, “Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life.” Wow, talk about emotional abuse, he was sweating blood; and the beating he suffered was quite the demonstration of physical abuse. If you know someone that is being abused more then Jesus, please by all means help him or her seek a divorce.
“Co-Dependency” is a term over used and abused in marriage relationship discussions. It derived from dysfunctional families that have chemical dependent individuals. Family members can suffer a “co-dependency”. I’m happy to say I have a healthy “co-dependency” with the Triune God and my wife.
Peace
Mark
I'm referring to ongoing verbal/emotional abuse which has been proven to be as damaging as physical abuse...then of course there is physical abuse, which no one questions is wrong, and even spousal rape, which no one would dare talk about - especially in Christian circles.
I know what abuse is Mark. It is not going on long vacations without your spouse (though that may indeed be one form of abuse, depending on the couple). I'm not using the term loosely. I've been involved in pastoral care for far too long to do that.
And when I said that Jesus didn't suffer abuse as we know it, I conceed...He was abused. It was different in that He intentionally went through this for us. We were the "joy set before Him." So, in that sense it wasn't abuse, but laying His life down. It wasn't done TO Him, as much as He walked through it willingly for our sake.
Abuse however involves a victim and a victimizer. The victim didn't purpose to be abused for someone elses sake, though having said that - that probably happens to: for example, a mother who takes a beating so her child won't.
I grew up in a codependant situation Mark. I understand that as a child that is merely survival, but as an adult - it does not help the one who is codependant or the other person who is not held accountable for their behaviour. I am no longer in a codependant relationship with my family member. Since I drew that boundary, there isn't much of a relationship. I could have chosen to go on being abused, but I decided to stop it, and hopefully it helped him as well. I pray for him.
Abuse is wrong. God does not approve of abuse. My question is: How do you determine when it has crossed that line, and you need to stop it. At what point? Far too many men/women go too far - to the point where they no longer have the self worth to be able to step out of an abuse relationship, to the point where they are killed (in extreme cases)...
I'm not talking about some tough times in a marriage. I'm talking about unquestionable abuse - which most churches/church people will not touch "with a ten foot pole"
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 8/24/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Mark,
Absolutely. Love involves sacrifice. But abuse is not love, and someone who is truly being abused in a relationship needs to love themselves first; which means finding a place of safety - so they can love their spouse. I was reading something the other day about codependancy. I have a friend who is in a codependant relationship. The thing that really struck me in what I was reading is that it is not just the codependant person that is being hurt, but the abuser as well, because they are never called to be accountable for their behaviour. They are allowed to go on hurting, and that is not love either. Jesus' love is one that calls people to be accountable for their behaviour. It does not condone abuse. Being abused is not sacrificial love - it is codependancy. Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life. He did it willingly, and for a purpose - to restore, to redeem. He was God, as well as fully human. He endured this pain and suffering for the joy set before Him. I don't believe you can equate staying in an abusive marriage to this kind of sacrifice. That is not sacrificial love.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Ann,
Some people use the word “abuse?rather loosely. One could claim to be abused if their spouse has an on going platonic relationship with the opposite sex. One could claim abuse if their spouse took long trips without them. Some spouses could claim abuse if their partner communicated divorce as an option to resolve conflict.
How can you say after just seeing the movie the Passion that, “Jesus was not being abused when He sacrificed His life.? Wow, talk about emotional abuse, he was sweating blood; and the beating he suffered was quite the demonstration of physical abuse. If you know someone that is being abused more then Jesus, please by all means help him or her seek a divorce.
“Co-Dependency?is a term over used and abused in marriage relationship discussions. It derived from dysfunctional families that have chemical dependent individuals. Family members can suffer a “co-dependency? I’m happy to say I have a healthy “co-dependency?with the Triune God and my wife.
Peace
Mark
I'm referring to ongoing verbal/emotional abuse which has been proven to be as damaging as physical abuse...then of course there is physical abuse, which no one questions is wrong, and even spousal rape, which no one would dare talk about - especially in Christian circles.
I know what abuse is Mark. It is not going on long vacations without your spouse (though that may indeed be one form of abuse, depending on the couple). I'm not using the term loosely. I've been involved in pastoral care for far too long to do that.
And when I said that Jesus didn't suffer abuse as we know it, I conceed...He was abused. It was different in that He intentionally went through this for us. We were the "joy set before Him." So, in that sense it wasn't abuse, but laying His life down. It wasn't done TO Him, as much as He walked through it willingly for our sake.
Abuse however involves a victim and a victimizer. The victim didn't purpose to be abused for someone elses sake, though having said that - that probably happens to: for example, a mother who takes a beating so her child won't.
I grew up in a codependant situation Mark. I understand that as a child that is merely survival, but as an adult - it does not help the one who is codependant or the other person who is not held accountable for their behaviour. I am no longer in a codependant relationship with my family member. Since I drew that boundary, there isn't much of a relationship. I could have chosen to go on being abused, but I decided to stop it, and hopefully it helped him as well. I pray for him.
Abuse is wrong. God does not approve of abuse. My question is: How do you determine when it has crossed that line, and you need to stop it. At what point? Far too many men/women go too far - to the point where they no longer have the self worth to be able to step out of an abuse relationship, to the point where they are killed (in extreme cases)...
I'm not talking about some tough times in a marriage. I'm talking about unquestionable abuse - which most churches/church people will not touch "with a ten foot pole"
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Dear Jo-Anne and Mark and all,
I do think there's a place for we Christians to understand codependency. I have a friend who had gone to a health-care professional. He listened to her talk of her son and the trouble. Then he gave a scenario. If you and you son were walking down a path, and he stuck out his foot, tripped you, and you fell flat on your face, your concern would be for your son...you would wonder what had happened to him to make his foot fly in front of your ankle? I know this sounds ludicrous. I also know if we'd read of accounts of child abuse and spouse abuse victims, we'd come to understand their minds nearly always become convinced that they deserve the abuse. They also nearly always end up repeating the abusive situation, either as victim or perpetrator. These seem just obvious facts to those in the trenches. I do surely agree that one can go overboard with psychology...but it seems many Chrsitians jsut deny to the nth degree that this stuff is real. I grieve over the ignorance in those even in my immediate Christian circles. Could this not be one of those areas in which "My people perish for lack of knowledge"? I know God's main intent was knowledge of His Word. Isn't it possible He also stays concerned that we study the human condition, asking HIs help and for wisdom on how to bring healing? As always, I have books including the Bible, but also others that are by believers and non-believers that have and are going through these trials...Pia Mellody and Melody Beatty...check them out...Oh and Dan Allender..an associaite of Larry Crabb.
ALways realize, God can heal anything...and it helps if we know we need His Help!
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/26/2004 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I do think there's a place for we Christians to understand codependency.
Hello barryatk,
I also think Christians should have a better understanding of co-dependency, click on link below. 
How the Co-dependency Movement
Is Ruining Marriages
quote:
Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's, that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate, has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point, it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.
quote:
The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems.
In my judgment, the co-dependency movement, which began with such valuable insight, has become a monster. In over-reaching, it has subjected healthy people to the same norms as unhealthy people, and in so doing, has caused much more harm than good. Married couples should be on guard from the ruinous effects of the co-dependency movement on marriage, especially if one of them suffers from anxiety or depression.
Peace,
Mark
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/27/2004 2:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Not following this closely, let me just say that the matter that divorce is allowed in some circumstances appears to be the topic. Biblically and ecclesiologically this is plainly true. But, it helps us a lot to keep it within a 'biblical' framework of Creation / Fall / Redemption.
Marriage is created by God "good" -- make that "very good."
Sin twists all of creation. What is considered for divorce "isn't the way its supposed to be." Divorce does not "make it right." Sin and its damage remain.
Redemption is not in divorce. After divorce lots of damage needs addressing. Remarriage, under the therapy of spiritual guidance ("penance" is not punishment, but therapy) and watchful oversight, time, healing, growth, and strengthening of relationship with God and familial bonds with those co-damaged, can take place.
That's our picture, "from Lake Wobegon":
Creation / Fall / Redemption / and Heaven
(wither here on earth or "then")
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 8/27/2004 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I do think there's a place for we Christians to understand codependency.
Hello barryatk,
I also think Christians should have a better understanding of co-dependency, click on link below.
How the Co-dependency Movement
Is Ruining Marriages
quote:
Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's, that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate, has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point, it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.
quote:
The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems.
In my judgment, the co-dependency movement, which began with such valuable insight, has become a monster. In over-reaching, it has subjected healthy people to the same norms as unhealthy people, and in so doing, has caused much more harm than good. Married couples should be on guard from the ruinous effects of the co-dependency movement on marriage, especially if one of them suffers from anxiety or depression.
Peace,
Mark
Hey Mark!
Thanks for the above link. I went there to discover it was by Bob Harley! A really good Christian psychologist (imho). I noticed how he runs through the codependency test, both as he now lives and again as though he lived with a alcoholic. I wonder how he'd answer if he was living with an abusive spouse? Anyway, I see his point... there is definitely a right kind of dependency. There is a reasonable amount in marriage, yes. I guess what I ask as does Moon river: how do you determine if the time is at hand to leave a marriage due to issues of abuse? I've read Harley's Love Busters and others. He forecasts about the marriages that come to him for help. He's able to predict with some accuracy the ones that will heal and those that won't. I'm sure he gets his share of surprises both ways. Yet, for the usual situations, I bet he's normally not surprised. So ,if one finds oneself in a marriage and all the "love busters" are happening, how long and how deeply need one suffer? I really feel many Christians hold on beyond the point most experienced counselors would advise. I know friends that to me seem to be going down hill fast, staying married in name only, and living a hellish existence. Could you not see that going in to see a seasoned counselor may help greatly in deciding together to work things out or the other, to let go of the marriage? To me it does boil down to the issue of abuse and the willingness of the partners to admit it and to work to get it stopped. After some years, I cannot see just wasting away in an abusive thing, having sought counsel, and having poured your heart into it.
Hope none of you have this or ever will. Hope too that when we know others having this that we don't pressure them into doing what seems right to us, but love them regardless of how they choose/
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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