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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:13 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Megan_Heuer
05/08/01 6:52 PM
Eternal Security
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I am wondering what people think about the idea of eternal security. I've never thaught about the ability of people falling out of Salvation, but after almost a semester of Dr. Greg Boyd's theology class it's very difficult not to think about many controversal topics, and try to make sense of it all. I've always just believed "once saved, always saved," but I never looked deeper into the topic. However, within the past semester one of my best friends has told me about a problem with her sister which made her question her sister's faith. My friend's sister grew up in a Christian home, and both my friend and her sister accepted Christ and were growing in their faith throughout childhood and into their college years. My friends sister seemed to be on fire for God, attended a christian college, taught bible study, etc. However reciently she has discovered (and/or decided) that she is has homosexual desires, and has chosen to make this her way of life. In that I mean, she has decided to move in with her girlfriend, and she has turned her back on God and Christianity. Perhaps this isn't her permanant mind-set, however if she truely was a christian why would she start to live in a sinfull lifestyle. I'm not saying that Christians don't sin, but I don't think that a Christian would conciously choose to live in a lifestyle of sin that she knows is not what God origninally had designed. My friend's sister originally decided that she would not act apon her desires for others of her gender, but eventually decided that she'd rather live a life of "fun" than to follow God's commands. Is someone like that eternally secure? Does her being a christian before her concious decision to turn away from God continue to make her saved? OR is it plausable to say that she was never sincerly rooted in the faith before this concious change? What do you think? I eagerly await comments, Megan
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Megan_Heuer
05/08/01 6:57 PM
Poll Question: Do you believe in Conditional or Eternal Security?
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I'm wondering which view is more commonly accepted: Conditional or Eternal Security?
Conditional Security
Eternal Security
View Poll Results
badlejeune
05/08/01 11:51 PM
RE: Eternal Security
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I can't say anything about your sister's friend, but I do believe that it is possible to fall away.
I attend a Prebyterian church, and my paster could never speak as Paul does concerning eternal security, and Paul never really speaks like my pastor. My paster speaks like John in that we already have eternal life. And that can be good because our situation is very different now. Some Christians today question their salvation because they have a sin. Not that they want to return to paganism or Judaism, but because they told a lie or some such. Certainly we need to be more secure than that!
But, I don't think you can argue eternal security from the letters of Paul. Galatians, Romans, and Corinthians all have warnings about falling away. In Galatians, the whole context is one big warning about falling away. An interesting verse is:
4:9 But now that you have come to know God (or rather to be known by God), how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless basic forces? Do you want to be enslaved to them all over again?
4:19 My children--I am again undergoing birth pains until Christ is formed in you!
He doesn't use the line "I guess you were never saved" and he sure sounds worried about something. He is worried that this group is being carried off by Judaizers.
In Romans 8, he says we were saved in hope; we hope for it and wait patiently for it.
then in 11, he says
Then you will say, "The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.
I know it's a metaphor, but it's not one that someone who believes in eternal security would ever make. Grafted in is saved; cut off is not saved. Israel thought they were unalterably the people of God; but those branches that didn't believe Jesus got cut off.
Lastly, when Paul addresses the Corinthians in regards to participating in pagan sacrifices he says this:
So I do not run uncertainly or box like one who hits only air. Instead I subdue my body and make it my slave, so that after preaching to others I myself will not be disqualified.
he continues using Israel's example:
For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness.
and
And let us not be immoral, as some of them were, and twenty-three thousand died in a single day. And let us not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes.
As I see it it, Paul had some very real concerns about the possibility of Christians in the churches under his care falling away. If they had been pagan, they might lapse back into paganism; if they had been Jewish or Jewish converts they may fall prey to the temple cult which was no better than paganism.
I know there is nothing new here, but I wanted to practice typing.
peace
lejeune
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/09/01 7:16 AM
RE: Eternal Security
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Here's my take...
Yes we are eternally secure and God has provided a means that will insure this end, plently of warnings. Those who are in Christ will pay attention to the warnings and continue to the end.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
badlejeune
05/09/01 8:56 AM
RE: RE: Eternal Security
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Don,
So if God keeps us secure by the various warnings, shouldn't we talk and act as if it's possible to fall? Shouldn't we say "be careful" rather than "it's not possible?" What benefit is there in thinking oneself eternally secure? If Paul believed as you do, where does he show it?
peace
lejeune
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Megan_Heuer
05/09/01 9:36 AM
RE: RE: RE: Eternal Security
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The Bible does emphasize that believers need to continually trust in Jesus Christ and walk with God to be saved. But the bible also says that we are able to do this because we are empowered by God to persevere in the faith. So since our foundation is God, not ourselves, why should we think that our salvation is conditional? Of course believers stumble in their walk, but since their heart is fully turned to God, why would they not return? Perhaps those who seem to have "fallen away" were never genuinely saved to begin with... For example: in 1 John 2:19, John says, "They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us." David in the Old Testament said, "Our steps are made firm by the Lord...though we stumble, we shall not fall headlong, for the Lord holds us by the hand." (Psalm 37:23-24) Therefore our confidence should be found in God's strength, and not our own. David again says how God "will not forsake his faithful ones," (Psalm 37:28) with I believe are the implications that the righteous shall be kept safe for ever.. We are "kept safe" we do not "keep ourselves safe." What do you think? In Christ, Megan
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/09/01 10:54 AM
RE: RE: RE: Eternal Security
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lejeune,
Jesus put it like this... "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." .
If you mean by "eternally secure" that I can live with disregard for the Masters voice, no, there is no benefit in thinking one is secure as it is only a delusion.
Have a look here :
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Security/security.htm
if another view of eternal security interests you.
Paul is the messenger of the warnings to be balanced on the scale with the writings of John.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
badlejeune
05/09/01 11:38 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eternal Security
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Don,
Thanks for the reply; the Pink link doesn't work though. I have not invested the time in John as I have in Paul, but it seems that balancing the two takes the fire out of Paul condiderably. I wonder if Paul was even aware of Johannine thought. I have no doubt that John was inspired, but I wonder do we have enought information to know what he meant. What is the immediate context of the John writings? Who was he writing to? What were their problems? I don't think we can recreate much of their situation from the texts. Maybe it's there and I just haven't taken the time to find it yet.
go to run
lejeune
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/09/01 1:15 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Eternal Security
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lejuene,
Cut and paste the link if your interested in what Pink has to say. Dr. Boyd has already poked at me about my love for the writings of Arthur Pink. Pink is quick to put hyper-calvinists in their place and will not stand for so-called christians that don't take the Word of God with the respect it's due.
One challenge that I was given, and I'll pass along, find me one person in the Word that we have a reasonable assurance that they were saved that eventually made it into hell. I couldn't find any.
Usually folks point out Judas. But a short study shows that even early in Christs ministry He knew that Judas was outta there. Check out John 6:70, Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
Notice, "is" , not might be or will be , Judas was never on Jesus' side.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Megan_Heuer
05/09/01 5:27 PM
RE: good point
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Don wrote: "One challenge that I was given, and I'll pass along, find me one person in the Word that we have a reasonable assurance that they were saved that eventually made it into hell." Good point Don. I think that is a valid challenge. Meg ...Sorry my lines are all smushed together...how do you make spaces inbetween your paragraphs on this web page?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/10/01 6:28 AM
RE: RE: good point
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Megan,
I've found that the use of the preview button removes any blank lines. If you do use the preview you have to add the lines back in. From my bad spelling and poor grammer you can tell I don't use the preview often.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GODesteem
05/16/01 9:06 PM
RE: Poll Question: Do you believe in Conditional or Eternal Security?
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You need a third option - namely, I believe in BOTH Conditional and Eternal Security. "Once saved/always saved" is a very poor definition of the doctrine. I prefer POPS - Preservation of Persevering Saints. In other words, God preserves His people, and His people evidence their faith by their perseverance. The condition for claiming security is continual faith in Jesus! (not perfection, but not abject rebellion either) Someone who "leaves" the faith never had true faith to begin with...
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
lamreb
05/17/01 2:16 AM
RE: RE: Poll Question: Do you believe in Conditional or Eternal Security?
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I agree with this third view in that I believe that GOd wants us to feel secure in our salvation. WE are not ment to be constantly walking on eggshells all the time and worrying if we hve maintained our salvation. Once we accept Christ we are par tof his kingdom. But unfortunatly there are and will always be those Christians who fall away and completely reject God. God being a righteous God can be the only one to determine the true heart of a person. But I do believe that a Christian must maitain a love and faith in God and Christ Jesus to hold steadfast to their salvation. I am not talking walking the perfect life becasue none of us are perfect. BU ti believe that in a relationship with CHrist we need to show him the love and reverence he deserves in return for his gift of eternal life. Sorry if this is rambling but I basically want to say that the ability to fall away does not mean CHristain should not have to live in fear of this or that they can not come back becuase GOd is eternally forgiving GOd as well.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/17/01 8:46 AM
RE: RE: Poll Question: Do you believe in Conditional or Eternal Security?
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GODesteem says: "Once saved/always saved" is a very poor definition of the doctrine. I prefer POPS - Preservation of Persevering Saints.
might-be-don affirms: This is basically Pinks' stance on the matter, and the one I hold. Preservance is the proof of a genuine conversion. We take the "confession of faith" to be the sign of a believer with way too much weight. A stoney heart replaced with one of flesh is a much better indicator of the true state of a person. Too bad ( maybe ) that we can't read the heart directly. We do have some indication, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" , but the same mouth can issue blessing and cursing. Leaves us with no way to be sure of others. Forces us to take seriously the requirement of the Lord to allow Him to " search our heart and see if there be any wicked way in it" and "to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
bdsahli
05/17/01 11:36 AM
RE: Eternal Security
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Let me first say that i do not want to cast judgement on anyone so it is not my place to say wether a person will go to heaven or not. only God knows the truth of a persons heart. it says in Phi 3:12-14 "Not that i have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but i press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing i do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." from this i take that we are not perfect and will struggle, but we are called to "press on," persevere with the love of Christ he has for us and in our faithfulness. we will struggle but this does not mean we will necessairly lose faith. in Ps 37:28 it says that God will not forsake those who are faithful. once we truly have faith, we will always know that it is there, and i dont feel it can be forsaken.
-bdsahli
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NateGus
05/18/01 12:30 AM
RE: Eternal Security
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I have always thought about this issue and I actually worried about it as a kid. Now after looking at the subject I think that there is only one way to loose your salvation and that is to outright deny God after you have lived a life for Him. I do think that there are instances where people supposedly say the prayer and accept Christ but go on living their lives the same way they did before. In this case I would say that the person did not truly accept Christ becuase if you do it will change your life. It may take a while to change your life depending on the issues in your life but if your heart is truly committed to God, he will change your life. I am still fleshing out this issue in my mind so if you can help me to see deeper into this issue please reply!
Thanks
Nate
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