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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:07 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Wislawa
06/02/01 7:41 PM
Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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Here’s a question that I got from reading Albert Schweitzer (sp?).
Jesus family was pretty middle-class was it not? The way that I’ve always imagined things was that Mary and Joseph were sort of lower income blue collar type folks or whatever the historical economic equivalent was.
Schweitzer questions how the gifts Mary received from the wise men, the gold, frankincense, and I don’t know how to spell the ‘M’ one, didn’t automatically elevate Mary and Joseph to the economic equivalent of royalty. After all they were gifts fit for a king. So the question is: were they poor after this or not?
Any thoughts?
Wislawa
P.S. Schweitzer also questions the sacramental status of the Eucharist. Did Jesus mandate that the Last Supper be repeated? When He said ‘Do this in remembrance of me’ could He have meant it only for that particular instance? When exactly did He say we should do it often, or even ever again? Do we have it on record that any of the Disciples or apostles repeating the action? Does anyone know the history of the post-first-Last-Supper-Eucharist? (haHA!) I love the Eucharist and all, I just think it is a legit question on his part.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
06/02/01 9:19 PM
RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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Wislawa: excellant questions! You are very thought provoking! I have read where some scholars believed that Mary and Joseph used the gifts to finance their flight to Eygpt and back so that might to where the money went and why they were still working class.
As far as the last supper, it is quite possible that Jesus didn't mean it for us to do, but rather his immediate disciples...which wouldn't surprise me that people would blow something all out of proportion. I, too, like the taking of the bread and wine, but so many people make more of it than what is scriptural. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
06/02/01 9:30 PM
RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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Actually, I don't think Jesus ever said, "Do this in remembrance of Me," in the Gospels. Only Paul in 1 Cor. 11:25 says that Jesus said this. And Paul quotes Jesus as saying, "do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me," which implies doing it repeatedly in my opinion. Verse 26 solidifies this opinion.
Now you may argue that Paul was taking liberty when he said this since it's not recorded in the Gospels this way, but if you have a commitment to Scripture as a whole being inspired of God, you must accept that Jesus wanted this to be done repeatedly.
IntentOnTruth
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
06/03/01 2:02 AM
RE: RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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Hey IOT your right about that Paul thing. That shows you how poorly I know the Bible, I totally forgot that Paul took it up! So I don’t know how Schweitzer dealt with it being a matter of Paul quoting Jesus instead of an eye-witness quoting Jesus but Paul is good enough for me. ‘P’ is for Paul and that’s good enough for Cookie Mosnter. Still there does seem to be a jump made here. God must be one of the most misunderstood folks around. But He can’t blame us can He? I mean He must know how confused we get, and to my mind the burden of understanding lies on the one who knows that and to get the one who knows less to understand you. What is that famous prayer? “Let me seek to understand first and not to be understood.” I’ve always took that to mean understanding other people but maybe they meant it to be understanding God? Anyway its about 2 AM, I haven’t slept for a couple days, and my posts are starting to get a little loopy. Thanks for pointing out what I overlooked. (Gwosh I feel so stupid! Stupid stupid stupid!!!! How could God love me when I’m so stupid?)
Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
TGB
06/03/01 9:19 AM
RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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Wislawa-
I only have quick, gut-level answers today!
Jokingly, I wouldn't be surprised if the gold, frankinsense, and M-? were stored in a secret vault in Washington D.C. alongside the ark of the covenant and other artifacts stolen by Harrison Ford.
Seriously...
You're married, right? Check with you're wife on this one. You too, but mostly her. She a) had an angelic visit announcing the the birth of a "Son of God" through HER!, and b) graduates of Princeton, Gordon-Conwell, and Dallas Theo. Seminary show up with gold, frank., and M-?. Memories, right? And what memories! Would your wife sell 'em to finance a trip to Egypt? Besides, if they did then they got ripped off. If the gifts were enough to make them "royalty" and they only managed a tour of Egypt out of 'em...they got ripped off.
My hunch is Mary would have rathered died then part with those gifts.
When I run out of theological explanations, I ask Anita what she thinks!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
06/03/01 11:40 PM
RE: RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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TOm: I would disagree. Mary acted like the disciples, sometimes seemingly to know what was going now and, at other times, very dense. Given that and the trouble Jesus caused them, I highly doubt that Mary would have been hanging on to gold, franken and the M. Gold was currency, which would have been of little sentimental value, and the other two were highly prized. Plus, we here in the 21th century have the luxury of hanging on to stuff in our homes. They did not. And where did they get money on their trip to and from Eypgt and during their stay there? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
06/04/01 12:26 AM
RE: RE: RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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writerdad-
I totally understand. Still...
Show me a verse that suggests to you Mary was "like the disciples...dense."
Where did they get the money to travel to Egypt? For that matter, where did they get money to do anything (like travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem) before the wise men came? Joseph was a working man after all. There's no need to view them as street urchins begging passers-by. They may have been poor, but they don't seem to have been penniless beggars.
And who are we in the 21st century to declare with confidence that a gold "gift" to a child (it's not about the "gold" itself) could not hold great sentimental value for a mother in this situation?
My idea doesn't require Mary to grasp theologically who Christ was, or to have a great understanding of his mission/teaching. All she has to have respect for is what happened to HER. The angel appeared to her and announced that she as a virgin would give birth in a very unusal way to a person who was sent by God to do something special.
And besides, we are repeatedly reminded that Mary "kept these things in her heart." She's not an "Esau." She's not the sort of person who would not treasure what's valuable.
In the end, who cares? Is there some interpretive key lurking somewhere here in the shadows?
Blessings,
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
06/04/01 9:38 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Were Mary and Joseph Rolling With the 'Bling Bling?'
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Yeah, that is probably true. But when Jesus was 12 he said, why are you worried about me...later, Mary was with Jesus' brothers when they were going to take possession of him because he was crazy (can't remember the verses). I am sure Mary saved up all things in her heart, but I believe that was just like all mothers tend to do. It is my own humble opinion, though, that Mary is overly elevated in Christendom (particularly by Catholics) given the amount (or lack thereof) that the Bible actually deals with her. Still, I think it would be hard for Joseph to get true work in Eypgt, as a foreigner. But as you said, whats the point...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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