 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/3/2004 11:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sahidquote:
It seems to me Jesus is describing how things are, not telling us how to act. Of course this is not my own idea, but adapted from Dallas Willard
Thank you! God has a merciful heart toward the underdog.
Curiously, what would be a better way to pronounce the word, as not to drive people away? Should we say "blessed" with one syllable instead of "bless-ed" with two then? | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 3:05 AM (GMT -6) | | So we can all see what we're talking about...
HERE'S THE ENTIRE SERMON:
Matt.5
Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down his disciples came to him.
And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
[6] "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
[7] "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
{8} "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
[9] "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
[10] "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[11]
"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
[12] Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
[13]
"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men.
[14]
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.
[15] Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
[17]
"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
[19] Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[21]
"You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
[24] leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
[26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
[27]
"You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.'
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[29] If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
[30] And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
[31]
"It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[33]
"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[35] or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
[36] And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
[37] Let what you say be simply `Yes' or `No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
[38]
"You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[40] and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well;
[41] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
[42] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
[43]
"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
[45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
[47] And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
[48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
----------------------------------------------
Matt.6
"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
"Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[7]
"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
{8} Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
[16]
"And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[17] But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
[18] that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[19]
"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal,
[20] but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
[22]
"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light;
[23] but if your eye is not sound, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
[24]
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
[25]
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
[26] Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
[27] And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life?
[28] And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin;
[29] yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[30] But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith?
[31] Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'
[32] For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.
[33] But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
[34]
"Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day.
------------------------------------------
Matt.7
"Judge not, that you be not judged.
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
[6]
"Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.
[7]
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
{8} For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
[11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[13]
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[15]
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
[17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
[18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
[21]
"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
[24]
"Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
[25] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
[26] And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
[27] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it."
[28]
And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
[29] for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Why are the beatitudes so often read as goals that we should strive for? They aren't spoken in the imperative voice but the indicative.
Look at the WHOLE thing. Is it still true???
The entire second section of Deitrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship is on those three (3) chapters of the Sermon on the Mount.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 4:21 AM (GMT -6) | |
Semeia had a WONDERFUL post.
I hope she puts it up again. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Anyone interested in looking up what Deitrich Bonhoeffer had to say. A whole section of "The Cost of Discipleship" addressed it:
quote:
Therefore Jesus calls his disciples blessed, he spoke to men who had already responded to the power of his call. And it is that call that he has made them poor, aflicted and hungry. He calls them blessed not because of their privation, or their renunciation they have made for these are not blessed in themselves. Only the call and promise, for the sake of which they are ready to suffer poverty and renunciation, can justification the beatitudes.
. . .
All are called to be what in the reality of God they are already. The disciples are called blessed because they have obeyed the call of Jesus. And the people as a whole because they are heirs of the promise.
. . . . .
It is only the call of Jesus which makes it a solution where faith is possible. Secondly, a situation where faith is possible can never be demonstrated from human side. Discipleship is not an offer a man makes to Christ. It is only the call of which creates the situation. Thirdly, this situation never possesses any intrinsic worth of merit of its own. It is only through the call that it receives its justification. Last but not least, the situation in which faith is possible is itself rendered possible through faith.
FOOTNOTE #1 IN THE BEATITUDES CHAPTER IS WONDERFUL AND POWERFUL. ANYONE HAVE THE BOOK?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/4/2004 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I think Bonhoeffer is wrong. The Beautitudes are the first part of one of Jesus' first public addresses. But Jesus is not telling the crowds to strive for the attributes He lists; He is telling those you already posses those attributes not to lose hope. Things will be set right. Look at the entire sermon. Jesus knows how to use the imperative. He knows how to tell people what to do. But He doesn't do that here. In the beatitudes He does not say, "Be merciful, so that you will obtain mercy." Jesus says that elsewhere, but not here. Look at Matt 5:11. If we reword it and take it as a command, we are commanded to pick fights. How about v.4? We should not rejoice in the Lord always, but rather mourn? Or look to Luke's version. Luke 6:22, if it is a command, is a command to create hatred, disunity, insults, and to spoil one's reputation.
It was not Jesus' call that made them poor and hungry. Look at where Jesus was born. His dad was even employed; there were plenty of people worse off. Jesus' call doesn't necessarily create poverty the way Bonhoeffer describes it. God is our provider. The people were already hungry. Jesus brought them hope.
I think the beatitudes are the gospel. "You're in trouble and in need of salvation, and I've come to give you that salvation."
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid: Jesus' call doesn't necessarily create poverty the way Bonhoeffer describes it.
PoW: Who says he describes that?
Cost of Discipleship: Footnote #1 -- There is no justification whatever for setting Luke's version of the beatitudes over against Matthews's. Matthew is not spiritualizing the beatitudes, and Luke giving them in their original form, nor is Like giving a political twist to an original form of the beatitude which aplied only to a poverty of diposition. Privation is not the found of the beatitude in Luke, nor renunciation in Matthew. On the contrary, both gospels recognize that neither privation nor renunciation, spiritual of political, is justified, except by the call and promise of Jesus, who alone makes blessed those whom he calls, and who is in his person the sole ground of their beatitude. Since the days of the Clementines, Catholic exegesis has applied this beatitude to the virtue of poverty, the paupertas voluntaria of the mnoks, or any kind of poverty undertaken voluntarily for the sake of Christ. But in both cases the error lies in looking for some kind of hman behavior as the ground for the beatitude of the call and promise of Jesus alone.
D.B.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 9:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Archibaldo
The footnote you posted is #2 in my version.
Archy, my man!!! ....................YOU TAKE THE BATON!.......
(That means you dig up stuff from Bonhoeffer now. I gotta go.) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Bonhoeffer: "Therefore Jesus calls his disciples blessed, he spoke to men who had already responded to the power of his call. And it is that call that he has made them poor, aflicted and hungry."
Bonhoeffer: "...the call and promise of Jesus, who alone makes blessed those whom he calls..." AND "...his person (is) the sole ground of their beatitude..."
It is the CALL that makes them blessed, Bonhoeffer says. Have a copy?
I'm fine with BOTH of these -- they're pretty much the same.
But are you comfortable? And why?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/5/2004 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Why are the beatitudes so often read as goals that we should strive for? They aren't spoken in the imperative voice but the indicative (that's the English, don't ask me the Greek). It seems to me Jesus is describing how things are, not telling us how to act. Of course this is not my own idea, but adapted from Dallas Willard.
And another thing. It always sounds dumb when people pronounce it "bless-ed". It sounds churchy, but often times churchy sounding words drive more people away then they attract.
I have not read any of the books being discuss but I thought I would through in a little tidbit to chew on. Romans 15:8 says Jesus is the servant of the circumcision and He declared Himself that he was sent only to Israel. Just as John did before, Christ came preaching that the kingdom is at hand. This kingdom is the millennial kingdom of Christ. Much of Matt. 5, 6 and 7 alludes to this coming kingdom and the "time of trouble" for Israel that occurs just before Christ returns. This view would explain the "mourning", the persecuting, "lead us not into evil, but deliver us, for thine is the kingdom, take no thought for your life, beware of false prophets, not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, etc. This message (even though we, as gentiles, can learn much from it)is for the Israelites and concerns the coming "time of trouble" and millennial kingdom of the messiah.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
But if disciples are made of all nations, should all nations apply Jesus' teaching? I think the beatitudes teach, to put it very simply, that there is hope for the hopeless. I think that applies to all races.
But, as we see in the first few chapters of Acts Peter and the Apostles did not go to the nations (gentiles). Blessing for the rest of the world is to come through Israel and the kingdom to come. Peter needed a special revelation to go to Cornelius, and these Gentiles were brought into the picture to provoke the Israelites to jealousy (Rom. 10:19). In Romans 11 and Acts 28 we see that God has locked Israel up in stubborness so that the evangel could go out to the nations not using Israel as the channel (Rom. 11:25). When Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom, then Israel will takes it rightful place as the priests of God to the nations.
After Israel was set aside, Paul wrote, "YET NOW, in Christ Jesus, YOU, who once were a far off, are become near by the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2:13) and during this current age of grace the distinction between jew and gentile is nullified through the cross of Christ. Matt. 5,6 and 7 is a message for the Circumcision and the kingdom of the Messiah which is to come and which will be here on the earth. We, as gentiles, can learn much from them, but our allotment is heavenly (Eph. 1:3).
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/8/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But, as we see in the first few chapters of Acts Peter and the Apostles did not go to the nations (gentiles). Blessing for the rest of the world is to come through Israel and the kingdom to come. Peter needed a special revelation to go to Cornelius, and these Gentiles were brought into the picture to provoke the Israelites to jealousy (Rom. 10:19). In Romans 11 and Acts 28 we see that God has locked Israel up in stubborness so that the evangel could go out to the nations not using Israel as the channel (Rom. 11:25). When Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom, then Israel will takes it rightful place as the priests of God to the nations.
After Israel was set aside, Paul wrote, "YET NOW, in Christ Jesus, YOU, who once were a far off, are become near by the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2:13) and during this current age of grace the distinction between jew and gentile is nullified through the cross of Christ. Matt. 5,6 and 7 is a message for the Circumcision and the kingdom of the Messiah which is to come and which will be here on the earth. We, as gentiles, can learn much from them, but our allotment is heavenly (Eph. 1:3).
But none of this deals with the idea that the Beatitudes are descriptive, not prescriptive. And nothing you've said leads to the Beatitides being untrue for gentiles.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 6:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
But, as we see in the first few chapters of Acts Peter and the Apostles did not go to the nations (gentiles). Blessing for the rest of the world is to come through Israel and the kingdom to come. Peter needed a special revelation to go to Cornelius, and these Gentiles were brought into the picture to provoke the Israelites to jealousy (Rom. 10:19). In Romans 11 and Acts 28 we see that God has locked Israel up in stubborness so that the evangel could go out to the nations not using Israel as the channel (Rom. 11:25). When Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom, then Israel will takes it rightful place as the priests of God to the nations.
After Israel was set aside, Paul wrote, "YET NOW, in Christ Jesus, YOU, who once were a far off, are become near by the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2:13) and during this current age of grace the distinction between jew and gentile is nullified through the cross of Christ. Matt. 5,6 and 7 is a message for the Circumcision and the kingdom of the Messiah which is to come and which will be here on the earth. We, as gentiles, can learn much from them, but our allotment is heavenly (Eph. 1:3).
But none of this deals with the idea that the Beatitudes are descriptive, not prescriptive. And nothing you've said leads to the Beatitides being untrue for gentiles.
The Beatitudes were originally proclaimed to the people of Israel as necessary for entrance into the Kingdom of heaven, in which Christ will set up when He returns (Rev. 20). I agree with you that the Beatitudes are descriptive for gentile believers during this current age of grace. And actually they will also be descriptive for the people of Israel when Jesus returns because it is then that God will give them a new heart (Jer. 31:31-34)and there will be no need for anyone to teach them anymore. Please excuse my wordy-ness at times.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/9/2004 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I shared that point at the beginning.
But, even so, there are a lot of prescriptive statements in the sermon as a whole. | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:55 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|