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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/9/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Labour apart from God is evil and vanity.
Eccl. 4:8 "The is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother, yet there is no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, 'for whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good?' This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore (ra) travail."
Eccl. 3:10 "I have seen the "travail", which God hath given to the son's of men to be exercised in it."
Both passages speak of the labour of mankind being the "ra" task God gives to mankind to humble him with. The labour of man under heaven and under the sun which is apart from God is earthy and fleshy and therefore evil in God's eyes becasue our righteousness is as filthy rags.
The "ra" task that men do is translated as:
grievous task
heavy burden
sore travail
unhappy business
miserable business
tragic existence
hard work
burdensome task
sad travail
grievous occupation
by the different versions of Ecclesiates 1:13 that I posted earlier. NONE of these teams of Hebrew experts translated it as "evil".
You have neither provided a translation that states our labor is evil, nor have you explained why the labor that God commands of us is evil.
Exodus 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work" | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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| Posted 8/9/2004 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Labour apart from God is evil and vanity.
Eccl. 4:8 "The is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother, yet there is no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, 'for whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good?' This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore (ra) travail."
Eccl. 3:10 "I have seen the "travail", which God hath given to the son's of men to be exercised in it."
Both passages speak of the labour of mankind being the "ra" task God gives to mankind to humble him with. The labour of man under heaven and under the sun which is apart from God is earthy and fleshy and therefore evil in God's eyes becasue our righteousness is as filthy rags.
The "ra" task that men do is translated as:
grievous task
heavy burden
sore travail
unhappy business
miserable business
tragic existence
hard work
burdensome task
sad travail
grievous occupation
by the different versions of Ecclesiates 1:13 that I posted earlier. NONE of these teams of Hebrew experts translated it as "evil".
You have neither provided a translation that states our labor is evil, nor have you explained why the labor that God commands of us is evil.
Exodus 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work"
SOC-
The Hebrew word used in Ex. 20:9 translated labor is abad, which is not the subject of Eccl. Eccl. 1:13 addresses man's inyan or business apart from God. Eccl. 4:8 declares that man's labour is vanity. The message of Eccl. is that all of man's business apart from God is vanity, or earthy, and will vanish with the earth.
My case has never been to prove that seeking wisdom is evil, nor has it been to prove that labor is evil, nor has it been to prove that God is evil.
My case, as it pertains to the subject is that God has control over all and influences all, and that would include evil. The following passages in the KJV state that God brings about evil when it is necessary to accomplish His purposes...
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Duet. 6:22 "And the Lord showed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Pharaoh, upon his household, before our eyes."
2 Sam. 24:15 "So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning to the time appointed and there died of the Peolple from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men."
Ps. 71:20 "Thou hast shown me great and sore troubles; Shalt quicken me again and Shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth."
Ps. 78:49 "He cast upon them the fierceness of His anger, wrath, and indignation and trouble by sending evil angels among them."
Ps. 107:39 "Again they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction and sorrow."
Eccl. 7:14 "In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider God also hath set the one against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.
Jer. 18:11(b) "Thus saith the Lord; Behold I frame evil against you and devise a devise against you."
Ezek. 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord God, 'How much more when I send My four sore judgements upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?'"
Amos 3:6(b) "Shall there be evil in the city and the Lord hath not done it?"
Job 2:10 "But he said unto her, 'Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? Shall we recieve good at the hand of God and shall we not recieve evil?"
If one does not believe God has control over Satan's actions should read the first couple chapters of Job. As I have said before, I have an advantage of those teams of Hebrew experts because my theology does not limit God's control over evil in the world.
SOC-if you disagree with me that is your right and just as Paul declared to the Corinthians that "no doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval" (i Cor. 11:19), but please stop taking my posts and twisting them to say different then what is intended.
Lock
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/9/2004 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | I would guess that Lee Merrill might be a bit disappointed that his proposed topic has boiled down to basically a discussion of one verse -- even one word. Universalism is an important issue. But its odd, in evangelical circles it very VERY rarely is ever discussed seriously.
I personally don't find the "God's will can't be thwarted" stuff to be particularly strong. (Been around THAT issue 10 million times on this site... lets move on). But the universalistic "sounding" passages (e.g. as ALL were in Adam ALL are in Christ) are very strong. All the passages about God's DESIRE for all to be saved are strong, especially those that suggest he will NEVER give up till he "finds the one lost sheep." These verses are also intuitively strong (e.g. isn't this what perfect love would do?). And to the degree that one's own heart is conformed to Christ, one DESIRES this to be true. How can one not at least HOPE universalism is true?
The obstacle, of course, is all the teaching on "eternal" punishment. And so, it seems to me, the discussion ought to revolve around THIS. What does the word "Aionion" mean? If it can be proven that "aionion" in the relevant passages does NOT mean "eternal" but rather means "age-long," then, it seems to me, the case is closed. At the very least, I would think we would have warrant for accepting that what we HOPE to be true IS in fact true.
So, anyone want to take up the "aionion" issue?
Greg
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 1:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
SOC-if you disagree with me that is your right and just as Paul declared to the Corinthians that "no doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval" (i Cor. 11:19), but please stop taking my posts and twisting them to say different then what is intended.
You paraphrased Ecclesiates 1:13 incorrectly:
quote:
Eccl. 1:13 states that God uses evil to humble mankind
Ecclesiates does NOT say that, otherwise you would have quoted it instead of putting in your own words.
That's the only point I was making. Man's "employment, business, affair, task, occupation, job" is God given and is not evil.
http://www.biblequery.org/ecc.htm
http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=ecc&chapter=5
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=06045
labor == job == occupation == employment == business == service
Exodus 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work" | | Back to Top | | |
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apple
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Total Posts : 6
| Posted 8/10/2004 2:11 AM (GMT -6) | | If universalism is true and "eternal" punishment really means "age-long" than our "eternal" life as believers would have to mean "age-long" too --right?
Also, what do we do with verses like these:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right! truly, truly...
Blessings,
apple | | Back to Top | | |
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apple
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Total Posts : 6
| Posted 8/10/2004 2:50 AM (GMT -6) | | interesting link/articles -- I may have answered some of my questions all by myself 
http://tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
be sure to scroll down
peace,
apple | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by apple
interesting link/articles -- I may have answered some of my questions all by myself
http://tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
Thanks for the link, apple.
Also, thanks for giving Newton that idea.
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Bobber
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Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/10/2004 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
What does the word "Aionion" mean? If it can be proven that "aionion" in the relevant passages does NOT mean "eternal" but rather means "age-long," then, it seems to me, the case is closed. At the very least, I would think we would have warrant for accepting that what we HOPE to be true IS in fact true.
I had a look at some of the Universal Web sites and no I can't see their position as being very substantial. Yes there is an odd place where the word 'hell' should maybe have been translated death, or the grave, but all places no. If im not mistaken Universalists do not believe in hell? Well one web site I looked at was trying to put forth that the account Jesus gave of the rich man in hell, and Lazurus, that it was merely a parable. While its true Jesus said in other places there was a certain man who had two sons, the parable of the wayward son, the account however that Jesus talks about hell, the rich man and Lazurus [the poor man] it actually gives the persons name.
Plus it doesn't start of in saying that he taught them in parables saying. So because of Jesus giving the actual name of a person I hardly think it could be said to be a parable. Greg you stated At the very least, I would think we would have warrant for accepting that what we HOPE to be true IS in fact true. I wonder if maybe we should say we look forward to the day when we understand justice in the way that God sees it. To say we hope that God doesn't actually allow people to be in forever hell would suggest our vision of what justice is is better then God. Maybe once we get on the other side we will see all points and angles the way that God see's them? 
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feelinahole
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| Posted 8/10/2004 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | | | We should HOPE for the truth as God sees it, not the things we FEEL should be true. Too many times eternal punishment is about how we feel about it, not what the scriptures may or may not say. As with the wiping out of different tribes in the OT, we should learn to trust the God we don't always understand to be just, true and loving. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/10/2004 3:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
Thanks for your reply, Dr. Boyd!
quote:
Greg Boyd: the universalistic "sounding" passages (e.g. as ALL were in Adam ALL are in Christ) are very strong. All the passages about God's DESIRE for all to be saved are strong, especially those that suggest he will NEVER give up till he "finds the one lost sheep." These verses are also intuitively strong (e.g. isn't this what perfect love would do?). And to the degree that one's own heart is conformed to Christ, one DESIRES this to be true. How can one not at least HOPE universalism is true?
I agree!
Luke 15:5 And when he finds it…
Not "if he finds it"… And God does want everyone to be saved, Paul was certainly praying in God's will, when he prayed in Romans 9 and 10 for those whom God had passed over. And "love never fails" (1 Cor. 13:8).
quote:
Greg Boyd: The obstacle, of course, is all the teaching on "eternal" punishment…
Time to address some verses! I would rather not qualify "eternal," myself…
MK 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
I hope no one ever does this. Paul says he was the "worst of sinners" (1 Tim. 1:16). So if anyone commits the unpardonable sin, I think we have to say Paul was worse than that. But we know Paul was saved, thus we have reason to hope that nobody will actually commit this sin.
MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
First let's notice that the righteous had eternal life before they went into eternal life. Thus "eternal life" here may be referring to the kingdom of God as a place here, as everlasting punishment seems to be referred to as a place. Thus "eternal" may refer more to the description of the place here than it refers to an unchanging destiny of the people.
Also, let us notice that hell was created for the devil and his angels. Thus if people, in some sense, don't belong there, then we may possibly hope that they won't stay there. And "eternal" here need not imply "eternal for everyone sent there," any more than the "bottomless pit" implies no chance of coming out after being thrown in there (Rev. 20:3).
JUDE 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
I would respond with a verse, in this connection:
EZE 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them...
2TH 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction... (NASB)
Now if they can indeed pay this penalty, in some sense, I think we may hope the destruction is eternal, and the penalty, but that still the people can be saved. And if people in hell must pay an eternal penalty, then justice is never done! It's being done, but it's never all paid. Thus there is always some injustice…
quote:
Bobber: If im not mistaken Universalists do not believe in hell?
I do believe in hell, and in God's judgment, and hope that people there can still repent. I think hell is punitive, not a place where people pay for their sins, but perhaps where the "sinful nature" is destroyed.
quote:
Bobber: Maybe once we get on the other side we will see all points and angles the way that God see's them?
I agree! I think there will be destruction that ends, and eternal punishment, and God "all in all."
"Heaven will solve our problems, but not, I think, by showing us subtle reconciliations between all our apparently contradictory notions. The notions will be knocked from under our feet. We shall see that there never was any problem" (A Grief Observed).
So we will all be right, and we will all be wrong! That's what I believe. But people do say it is impossible for all to be saved, so I work on that side of the issue.
Almost the last verse in the Bible is the glorified church, on her wedding day, inviting those who are thirsty. And she's not inviting herself!
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/17/2004 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
SOC-if you disagree with me that is your right and just as Paul declared to the Corinthians that "no doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval" (i Cor. 11:19), but please stop taking my posts and twisting them to say different then what is intended.
You paraphrased Ecclesiates 1:13 incorrectly:
quote:
Eccl. 1:13 states that God uses evil to humble mankind
Ecclesiates does NOT say that, otherwise you would have quoted it instead of putting in your own words.
That's the only point I was making. Man's "employment, business, affair, task, occupation, job" is God given and is not evil.
http://www.biblequery.org/ecc.htm
http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=ecc&chapter=5
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=06045
labor == job == occupation == employment == business == service
Exodus 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work"
Then you are missing the point of Eccl, which is that all that is done apart from God is vanity, and this is the "ra" task God has given to mankind to humble them.
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/17/2004 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Then you are missing the point of Eccl, which is that all that is done apart from God is vanity, and this is the "ra" task God has given to mankind to humble them.
http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?header=on&book=ecc&chapter=1
52 tn The phrase ur` /y~n+u! (’inyan ra’, "rotten business, grievous task") is used only in Ecclesiastes (1:13; 2:23, 26; 3:10; 4:8; 5:2, 13; 8:16). It is parallel with lb#h# (hevel) "futile" in 4:8, and describes a "grave misfortune" in 5:13. The noun /y~n+u! (’inyan, "business") refers to something that keeps a person occupied or busy: "business; affair; task; occupation" (HALOT 857 s.v. /y`n+u!; BDB 775 s.v. /y`n+u!). The related verb hn~u* (’anah) means "to be occupied, to be busy with" (with the preposition B=, bet), e.g., Eccl 1:13; 3:10; 5:19 (HALOT 854 s.v. III hn`u*; BDB 775 s.v. II hn`u*). The noun is from the Aramaic loanword an`y`n+u! (’inyana’, "concern, care"). The verb is related to the Aramaic verb "to try hard," the Arabic verb "to be busily occupied; to worry to be a matter of concern," and the Old South Arabic root "to be troubled; to strive with" (HALOT 854 s.v. III hn`u*).
God gave us work to occupy us, not evil.
You paraphrased Ecclesiates 1:13 incorrectly. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/17/2004 6:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Almost the last verse in the Bible is the glorified church, on her wedding day, inviting those who are thirsty. And she's not inviting herself!
This doesn't present a problem to those of us who don't see the Book of Revelation as a handbook of bible prophecy, but rather as a revelation of CHRIST THE KING and the spiritual reality of the kingdom of heaven coming down to earth. Even if one views the book in futuristic terms, the verse you cite could reasonably be thought of as a final call addressed to those presently reading the book, not to those who have ultimately rejected Christ at the end of the age.
The flow of thought of the chapter seems to strongly argue against the idea you propose, that God is somehow giving a second chance to those in hell:
Rev. 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/18/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
What does the word "Aionion" mean? If it can be proven that "aionion" in the relevant passages does NOT mean "eternal" but rather means "age-long," then, it seems to me, the case is closed. At the very least, I would think we would have warrant for accepting that what we HOPE to be true IS in fact true.
I had a look at some of the Universal Web sites and no I can't see their position as being very substantial. Yes there is an odd place where the word 'hell' should maybe have been translated death, or the grave, but all places no. If im not mistaken Universalists do not believe in hell? Well one web site I looked at was trying to put forth that the account Jesus gave of the rich man in hell, and Lazurus, that it was merely a parable. While its true Jesus said in other places there was a certain man who had two sons, the parable of the wayward son, the account however that Jesus talks about hell, the rich man and Lazurus [the poor man] it actually gives the persons name.
Plus it doesn't start of in saying that he taught them in parables saying. So because of Jesus giving the actual name of a person I hardly think it could be said to be a parable. Greg you stated At the very least, I would think we would have warrant for accepting that what we HOPE to be true IS in fact true. I wonder if maybe we should say we look forward to the day when we understand justice in the way that God sees it. To say we hope that God doesn't actually allow people to be in forever hell would suggest our vision of what justice is is better then God. Maybe once we get on the other side we will see all points and angles the way that God see's them?
I felt the same way able Lazarus and the rich man until I read in the Companion Bible that Dr. Lightfoot, when researching the Talmud, found many similar stories in the traditions of the pharisees. It was the pharisees that believed that 2 men were partnered up in life; one rightoues and the other a sinner, and that they could see each other in afterlife. The concept of Abraham's bosom is not found in the Old Testament scriptures. Jesus was using the pharisees' own traditions to teach that even after the actual resurrection of Lazarus (John 11)and more importantly, Jesus' resurrection, they (the pharisees) still would not believe what was already tought in the Old Testament scriptures.
Lock
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Tom
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| Posted 8/18/2004 2:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Haven't read this thread at all. Sorry. Just wanted to interject this.
I'm wondering whether determinists (who believe God unconditionally determines some to hell and some to heaven) and univeralists (who believe God eventually saves all) make the same fundamental assumption about God. One believes God's POWER is undefeatable. The other believes God's LOVE is undefeatable. Same fundamental assumption about God, namely, that he is undefeatable.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 8/18/2004 4:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: Almost the last verse in the Bible is the glorified church, on her wedding day, inviting those who are thirsty. And she's not inviting herself!
Jee: … the verse you cite could reasonably be thought of as a final call addressed to those presently reading the book, not to those who have ultimately rejected Christ at the end of the age.
It could also be thought of the bride not inviting herself!  I think that's the better interpretation…
quote:
Rev. 22:11,14 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. … Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city…
This doesn't say "let him be unjust forever," though. And if people may be spoken of as entering the gates, and the city is the glorified church, then I think that speaks of people repenting then, and not before.
quote:
Tom: The other believes God's LOVE is undefeatable. Same fundamental assumption about God, namely, that he is undefeatable.
There's a verse like that, though!
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails.
quote:
Jee: and thus man's free will amounts to nothing of real significance, in both systems of thought.
I believe that God's children can really choose, though! And choose more and more, and they are able to bear more responsibility:
Matthew 25:21 His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
Blessings,
Lee
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Tom
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| Posted 8/18/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: The other believes God's LOVE is undefeatable. Same fundamental assumption about God, namely, that he is undefeatable.
Lee: There's a verse like that, though! 1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails.
Tom: “Like,” but not to the point. I take “Love never fails” to mean that blame for the consequences of our evil is never to be laid at Love’s door. Love never fails to do all love can to win the day. That doesn’t mean it always gets what it wants. Remember, same chapter: "Love does not insist on its own way"--(A categorical denial of universalism? I wonder.)
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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| Posted 8/18/2004 5:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Tom: The other believes God's LOVE is undefeatable. Same fundamental assumption about God, namely, that he is undefeatable.
Lee: There's a verse like that, though! 1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails.
Tom: “Like,” but not to the point. I take “Love never fails” to mean that blame for the consequences of our evil are never to be laid at Love’s door. Love never fails to do all love can to win the day. That doesn’t mean it always gets what it wants. Remember, same chapter: "Love does not insist on its own way"--(A categorical denial of universalism? I wonder.)
Tom
I do not see universalism as God forcing His love on us but instead I see how Paul says that the grace of God overwhelms (1 Timothy 1:14) and in Luke 7:41-50, Jesus says there are two debtors who owe a certain creditor. The one owed 500 denarii, the other only 50 denarii. The creditor deals graciously with both. Then Jesus asked the Pharisee, "Which of them, then will be loving him more?" Simon, the Pharisee, of course says the one who the creditor deals more graciously. The Jesus using the woman who is washing His feet as an example says that she loves much, becasue she was pardoned much.
Lock
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Tom
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| Posted 8/19/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | lock: I do not see universalism as God forcing His love on us...
Tom: I wasn't suggesting universalism argue this. The more persuasive universalists I know believe simply, as you say, that persons eventually "WILL" choose. But (to use good old openness logic), what GROUNDS this "will" if the choice is libertarian? If agents remain (even in hell) libertarianly free, then what now grounds the truth that they "will" choose Christ?
lock: ...but instead I see how Paul says that the grace of God overwhelms (1 Timothy 1:14)...
Tom: God's grace is overwhelming, but overwhelmingLY WHAT? Overwhelming is an adjective. Until you get to the modified NOUN you don't really know what you're arguing. So if overwhelming means I'm not free to choose otherwise, then overwhelming is equivalent to forcing. That's what 'forcing' would preusumably mean--to exert influence on another person in such a way as to illimminate all outcomes but that outcome desired by the one doing the influencing.
lock: ...and in Luke 7:41-50, Jesus says there are two debtors who owe a certain creditor. The one owed 500 denarii, the other only 50 denarii. The creditor deals graciously with both. Then Jesus asked the Pharisee, "Which of them, then will be loving him more?" Simon, the Pharisee, of course says the one who the creditor deals more graciously. The Jesus using the woman who is washing His feet as an example says that she loves much, becasue she was pardoned much.
Tom: This supports universalism? How? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 5:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
lock: I do not see universalism as God forcing His love on us...
Tom: I wasn't suggesting universalism argue this. The more persuasive universalists I know believe simply, as you say, that persons eventually "WILL" choose. But (to use good old openness logic), what GROUNDS this "will" if the choice is libertarian? If agents remain (even in hell) libertarianly free, then what now grounds the truth that they "will" choose Christ?
lock: ...but instead I see how Paul says that the grace of God overwhelms (1 Timothy 1:14)...
Tom: God's grace is overwhelming, but overwhelmingLY WHAT? Overwhelming is an adjective. Until you get to the modified NOUN you don't really know what you're arguing. So if overwhelming means I'm not free to choose otherwise, then overwhelming is equivalent to forcing. That's what 'forcing' would preusumably mean--to exert influence on another person in such a way as to illimminate all outcomes but that outcome desired by the one doing the influencing.
lock: ...and in Luke 7:41-50, Jesus says there are two debtors who owe a certain creditor. The one owed 500 denarii, the other only 50 denarii. The creditor deals graciously with both. Then Jesus asked the Pharisee, "Which of them, then will be loving him more?" Simon, the Pharisee, of course says the one who the creditor deals more graciously. The Jesus using the woman who is washing His feet as an example says that she loves much, becasue she was pardoned much.
Tom: This supports universalism? How?
Tom:
When Paul stated that the grace of God overwhelms, he was speaking of his own conversation. If that be the case, then you would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion. As far as they that are pardoned much, in turn love much, one of the objections to universalism is that people do not think that they should share their heavenly inheritance with the likes of Hitler and Manson or Judas or Pharoah for that matter. Now if these men stand before the white throne and are judged according to their acts, then for sure, they will face righteous judgment from God. Through this righteous judgment these men will understand the severity of their acts. Then they will be cast in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Then, at the consummation of the ages (1 Cor. 15:22-28) when death is abolished and these men are made alive in Christ and see that they too have been redeemed by the cross of Christ, will not their love for God be stronger then ours becauses He have dealt more graciously with them?
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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