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Armchair Theologian
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Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/19/2004 6:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
When Paul stated that the grace of God overwhelms, he was speaking of his own conversation. If that be the case, then you would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion. As far as they that are pardoned much, in turn love much, one of the objections to universalism is that people do not think that they should share their heavenly inheritance with the likes of Hitler and Manson or Judas or Pharoah for that matter. Now if these men stand before the white throne and are judged according to their acts, then for sure, they will face righteous judgment from God. Through this righteous judgment these men will understand the severity of their acts. Then they will be cast in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Then, at the consummation of the ages (1 Cor. 15:22-28) when death is abolished and these men are made alive in Christ and see that they too have been redeemed by the cross of Christ, will not their love for God be stronger then ours becauses He have dealt more graciously with them?
If they didn't accept Christ's salvation before their punishment, in order to escape punishment, why would they accept it after they're done with their punishment?
It's grace if it allows you to avoid punishment.
"Salvation" means "saved from <something>".
After they've been punished by God for their sins, Jesus offering to stand in their place so they aren't punished for their sins seems kind of meaningless....
"The LORD said to her,
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Armchair Theologian
quote:
Originally posted by lock
When Paul stated that the grace of God overwhelms, he was speaking of his own conversation. If that be the case, then you would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion. As far as they that are pardoned much, in turn love much, one of the objections to universalism is that people do not think that they should share their heavenly inheritance with the likes of Hitler and Manson or Judas or Pharoah for that matter. Now if these men stand before the white throne and are judged according to their acts, then for sure, they will face righteous judgment from God. Through this righteous judgment these men will understand the severity of their acts. Then they will be cast in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Then, at the consummation of the ages (1 Cor. 15:22-28) when death is abolished and these men are made alive in Christ and see that they too have been redeemed by the cross of Christ, will not their love for God be stronger then ours becauses He have dealt more graciously with them?
If they didn't accept Christ's salvation before their punishment, in order to escape punishment, why would they accept it after they're done with their punishment?
It's grace if it allows you to avoid punishment.
"Salvation" means "saved from <something>".
After they've been punished by God for their sins, Jesus offering to stand in their place so they aren't punished for their sins seems kind of meaningless....
1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all should be made alive."
Through Christ we (the elect) will not stand before the white throne because His (Jesus) blood is a propitation for our sins. That is part of the mercy given us in eonian life (better translation for aionion). Those who are judged before the white throne are npt puishmented for their sins in not the lake of fire and brimstone, if that were the case then what is the need for judgment? Their sentence is carried out before God on the day of judgment. The lake of fire and brimstone (the second death) is merely a huge crematorium for them while they are in the unconscious state of death. At the consummation, they will be made alive in Christ.
Lock
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Armchair Theologian
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Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/19/2004 8:27 AM (GMT -6) | | "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment,
but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life" (Matt. 25:46)
Either both the punishment of the damned is eternal and the life of the righteous is eternal OR
The punishment of the damned is a short holiday and the life of the righteous is a short holiday.
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
aion - , - age, world
"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
aionion, aionios - - eternal
"aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
Eis tous aionios ton aionion - - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
"unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
So God's eternity lasts only for "an age"?
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/19/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Nice talking to ya Lock.
Lock: When Paul stated that the grace of God overwhelms, he was speaking of his own conversation. If that be the case, then you would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion.
Tom: Not so. I don't define overwhelming in the sense you do. I'm saying that with respect to our choosing Christ, if 'overwhelming' means "left without real options" (as you seem to define it) then YOU would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion. I don't believe Paul was forced into conversion, so I don't think Paul was without options on the road to Damascus, nor do I assume 'overwhelming' in such instances entails one and only one option.
I have no doubt that those who are forgiven much love much. Unfortunately, nothing can be concluded from this about universalism.
I don't have any problems sharing heaven with the likes of Hitler or Manson. I'm sure heaven will be full of scumbags who during their lives were worse than me (and some who were far better). No problem whatsoever. If such people embrace grace in this life, it will be my joy to share heaven with them. Are you implying that those who reject universalism are motivated by a prejudice against very sinful people? Do you believe those who reject universalism enjoy God's judgment of others?
Lock: Now if these men stand before the white throne and are judged according to their acts, then for sure, they will face righteous judgment from God. Through this righteous judgment these men will understand the severity of their acts. Then they will be cast in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Then, at the consummation of the ages (1 Cor. 15:22-28) when death is abolished and these men are [will be] made alive in Christ and see that they too have been redeemed by the cross of Christ...
Tom: Again, what condition now grounds the truth-value of the proposition: "...the judged wicked 'WILL' be made alive in Christ"?
Lock: ...will not their love for God be stronger then ours becauses He have dealt more graciously with them?
Tom: I'm sure it would be very great indeed. How is this an argument FOR universalism?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 12:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Armchair Theologian
"And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment,
but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life" (Matt. 25:46)
Either both the punishment of the damned is eternal and the life of the righteous is eternal OR
The punishment of the damned is a short holiday and the life of the righteous is a short holiday.
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
aion - , - age, world
"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
aionion, aionios - - eternal
"aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
Eis tous aionios ton aionion - - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
"unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
So God's eternity lasts only for "an age"?
In Matthew 13:39, 40 we see that an "aion" comes to an end. How can forever come to an end? The unpardonable sin of Matthew 12:32 will not be forgiven in this "aion" or in the "aion" to come. How can a period of endlessness come after a period of endlessness if the first does not end? With that in mind why would you need "and ever" to follow after forever? It is the incorrect rendering of "aion". Robert Young consistantly translates "aion" as age and "aionion" as age-abiding or pertaining to an age. To say that God should have glory throughout the ages of the ages (which would be the millennial kingdom of Christ and the new heavens and new earth) does not take any glory away from Him. You are correct when you say that "aionion" damnation will last as long as "aionion" life because this damnation and this life pertains to the ages of the ages.
Lock
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 12:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Nice talking to ya Lock.
Lock: When Paul stated that the grace of God overwhelms, he was speaking of his own conversation. If that be the case, then you would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion.
Tom: Not so. I don't define overwhelming in the sense you do. I'm saying that with respect to our choosing Christ, if 'overwhelming' means "left without real options" (as you seem to define it) then YOU would be implying that Paul was forced into conversion. I don't believe Paul was forced into conversion, so I don't think Paul was without options on the road to Damascus, nor do I assume 'overwhelming' in such instances entails one and only one option.
I have no doubt that those who are forgiven much love much. Unfortunately, nothing can be concluded from this about universalism.
I don't have any problems sharing heaven with the likes of Hitler or Manson. I'm sure heaven will be full of scumbags who during their lives were worse than me (and some who were far better). No problem whatsoever. If such people embrace grace in this life, it will be my joy to share heaven with them. Are you implying that those who reject universalism are motivated by a prejudice against very sinful people? Do you believe those who reject universalism enjoy God's judgment of others?
Lock: Now if these men stand before the white throne and are judged according to their acts, then for sure, they will face righteous judgment from God. Through this righteous judgment these men will understand the severity of their acts. Then they will be cast in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Then, at the consummation of the ages (1 Cor. 15:22-28) when death is abolished and these men are [will be] made alive in Christ and see that they too have been redeemed by the cross of Christ...
Tom: Again, what condition now grounds the truth-value of the proposition: "...the judged wicked 'WILL' be made alive in Christ"?
Lock: ...will not their love for God be stronger then ours becauses He have dealt more graciously with them?
Tom: I'm sure it would be very great indeed. How is this an argument FOR universalism?
Tom
Tom-
I did not put these foward to prove universalism, I put them forward to explain that even though I believe that God influences our choices, especially when it comes to His salvation, I don't see it as Him forcing anything on us. He allows me to see His salvation, in which I do not need to do anything, and I cannot help but to be overwhelmed by it and love Him for it.
In what sense do you see "overwhelmed" being used in Paul's conversion?
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/19/2004 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Tom: The other believes God's LOVE is undefeatable.
Lee: There's a verse like that, though! 1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails.
Tom: “Like,” but not to the point. I take “Love never fails” to mean that blame for the consequences of our evil is never to be laid at Love’s door. Love never fails to do all love can to win the day.
Let's look at the contrast, though:
1 Corinthians 13:8 But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
This is not saying "prophecies and knowledge don't always exert themselves, and don't always do their best." It's saying they will stop and end, in a sense. But love doesn't! And I don't think "love never ends" is the best translation, either, though that still argues for all to be saved, if God loves everyone forever.
quote:
Tom: That doesn’t mean [love] always gets what it wants. Remember, same chapter: "Love does not insist on its own way"
That's a good point! "Love is not self-seeking," I would say, as the NIV has it here. But God's love doesn't compromise!
quote:
WBB4: So love never fails to force itself on others?
isn't that.... rape?
No, it's not forcing love, it's giving love, like when parents love their baby, they aren't forcing love on it. And babies love back because of that, and they don't love unless you love them.
1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us…
And we have the concept of Cupid shooting his arrows! That's not rape. "A match made in heaven," "They were meant for each other."
Song of Solomon 8:4 Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.
quote:
ACT: After they've been punished by God for their sins, Jesus offering to stand in their place so they aren't punished for their sins seems kind of meaningless…
God does punish even when he forgives, though:
2 Samuel 12:10 "Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house…"
2 Samuel 12:13-14 "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die."
quote:
ACT: Even those who reject Christ will one day be "alive in Christ".
That makes Jesus death on the cross worthless and meaningless.
Not at all! All must come through faith in Christ, by his death on the cross. And everyone coming means "much more," instead of "much less":
Romans 5:20-21 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
quote:
ACT: "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment,
but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life" (Matt. 25:46)
Either both the punishment of the damned is eternal and the life of the righteous is eternal OR
The punishment of the damned is a short holiday and the life of the righteous is a short holiday.
But as Lock said, then there can be the next age, where God is "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28). And hell was created for the devil and his angels, and God didn't make a mistake when he created hell, thus in some sense, people don't belong there. And therefore we may hope they won't stay there…
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/20/2004 1:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
quote:
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Lee: Almost the last verse in the Bible is the glorified church, on her wedding day, inviting those who are thirsty. And she's not inviting herself!
Jee: … the verse you cite could reasonably be thought of as a final call addressed to those presently reading the book, not to those who have ultimately rejected Christ at the end of the age.
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It could also be thought of the bride not inviting herself! I think that's the better interpretation…
quote:
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Rev. 22:11,14 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. … Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city…
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This doesn't say "let him be unjust forever," though. And if people may be spoken of as entering the gates, and the city is the glorified church, then I think that speaks of people repenting then, and not before.
On what hermeneutical grounds do you come to these conclusions. I have repeatedly brought attention to the fact that God says DO NOT ADD to His words. If we look at the contexts above from that conservative point of view, John seems to have the most reasonable take on those verses. If you were to find out after the ressurection that universalism was not true, how would that affect your view of God's righteousness?
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Armchair Theologian
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Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/20/2004 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting topic, I've never encountered it before. How about these "age-long" items:
Romans 16:26
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith
God is only "age-long"?
Hebrews 9:
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal (aionios) redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aionios) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Jesus' redemption is only good for an "age"?
The Holy Spirit is only "age-long"?
2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal (aionios) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Jesus' kingdom will only last one (1) "age"?
2 Corinthians 5:
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal (aionios) in the heavens
Enjoy that heavenly body for the short time you'll have it.
"The LORD said to her,
'Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body'" | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/20/2004 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Armchair Theologian
quote:
Originally posted by lock
In Matthew 13:39, 40 we see that an "aion" comes to an end. How can forever come to an end? The unpardonable sin of Matthew 12:32 will not be forgiven in this "aion" or in the "aion" to come. How can a period of endlessness come after a period of endlessness if the first does not end?
Because aion means "age". So an "age" can end.
But aionion, aionios means "eternal".
So you have an "eternal" God, Romans 16:26 "aionons God".
And an "eternal" Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14 "aionons Spirit"
And an "eternal" Kingdom, 2 Peter 1:11 "aionios kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"
And "eternal" life for some and "eternal" punishment for others:
Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into aionion punishment,
but the righteous into aionion life"
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
Maybe a Greek scholar can explain what the ending on  does to 
Armchair-
Go to godstruthfortoday.org, then go into the Main Library and read Louis Abbott's essay (it's the first one listed) about aion and aionion and aionios and see what the Greek scholars he sites say.
Lock
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/20/2004 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Armchair Theologian
Interesting topic, I've never encountered it before. How about these "age-long" items:
Romans 16:26
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith
God is only "age-long"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The bible speaks of time and the eons. We get very little information about what happened before the eons (2 Timothy 1:9) and we get a lettle information of what happens after the consummation of the eons (1 Cor. 15:22-28). To say that God is the "eonian" God means that He is the Creator or He orchestrates the eons.
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Hebrews 9:
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal (aionios) redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aionios) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Jesus' redemption is only good for an "age"?
The Holy Spirit is only "age-long"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The redemption spoken of here will cover the sins of the faithful elect of the Hebrews (whom the letter was written to)and grant eonian life during the two eons to come; the kingdom of the Messiah and the new heavens and new earth.
The eonian spirit is spoken of in Joel 2:28-32 and Jesus during the gospels and His disciples during Acts give us a taste of what this will entail.
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2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal (aionios) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Jesus' kingdom will only last one (1) "age"?
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Jesus' Kingdom will last for the eons of the eons, which are the last two and the most glorious of all the eons and until He has subject all under Him (1. Cor. 15:25). Then at the consummation the Son willgive up His authority and be subject to the Father so that God will be All in All (1 Cor. 15:28).
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2 Corinthians 5:
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal (aionios) in the heavens
Enjoy that heavenly body for the short time you'll have it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This heavenly body will be our habitation during the eons of the eons. This does not mean that it will no longer be our habitation after the consummation when all will be made alive in Christ.
I hope this has helpful.
Lock
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/20/2004 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Jee: … the verse you cite could reasonably be thought of as a final call addressed to those presently reading the book, not to those who have ultimately rejected Christ at the end of the age.
Lee: It could also be thought of the bride not inviting herself! I think that's the better interpretation…
Rev. 22:11,14 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. … Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city…
Lee: This doesn't say "let him be unjust forever," though. And if people may be spoken of as entering the gates, and the city is the glorified church, then I think that speaks of people repenting then, and not before.
Jeff: On what hermeneutical grounds do you come to these conclusions. I have repeatedly brought attention to the fact that God says DO NOT ADD to His words. If we look at the contexts above from that conservative point of view, John seems to have the most reasonable take on those verses.
Well, I do believe that the bride not inviting herself is better, and that people coming into the glorified church, on or after her wedding day, is quite reasonably taken to be salvation after death. The alternative of people coming into the gates of the New Jerusalem now, is the less reasonable alternative, this has the city going into the city…
quote:
If you were to find out after the resurrection that universalism was not true, how would that affect your view of God's righteousness?
I think I will be surprised, for sure! I think we all will be. But if all are not saved, then certainly there will be answers to my questions. But I can ask them now! And see what fits the Bible best.
How is there justice, if people have a punishment that lasts forever? Doesn't that mean justice is never satisfied, and thus there is really injustice, and not full justice?
quote:
ACT: aionion, aionios means "eternal".
It may not always means that:
"Eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time." (UBS)
"Lasting for an age, ever-lasting, eternal" (Liddel-Scott)
Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past…
Jude 1:7 … just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
The fire that consumed Sodom did not last forever. But even if this is not referencing that fire, I think we may still hope for Sodom…
Ezekiel 16:53 "Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters…"
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/21/2004 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
Well, I do believe that the bride not inviting herself is better, and that people coming into the glorified church, on or after her wedding day, is quite reasonably taken to be salvation after death. The alternative of people coming into the gates of the New Jerusalem now, is the less reasonable alternative, this has the city going into the city…
From Rev. 21:2,9 it seems that the bride is just the city (New Jerusalem) itself, in which case the invitation is to PEOPLE to come and live in it by enduring in righteousness to the end. Thus, when you add on the "let him be unrighteousness STILL" phrase, your argument is simply too speculative.
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If you were to find out after the resurrection that universalism was not true, how would that affect your view of God's righteousness?
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I think I will be surprised, for sure! I think we all will be. But if all are not saved, then certainly there will be answers to my questions. But I can ask them now! And see what fits the Bible best.
How is there justice, if people have a punishment that lasts forever? Doesn't that mean justice is never satisfied, and thus there is really injustice, and not full justice?
Now we're getting somewhere! I think there is good REASON to believe that punishment is not eternal. I do NOT see, however, good reason to believe in universalism. And since the injustice problem is solved by finite punishment alone, why the need for universalism? It doesn't solve anything unless you ASSUME that somehow it rights the supposed wrongs of all the sufferings God, per your calvinistic view, has brought about on the human race. OV doesn't have that problem, and, thus, allows for a conservative and perspicuous reading of scripture.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/21/2004 6:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Jee: In my view, it's not "the bride inviting herself," it's the bride (the Church) inviting others to join her, as part of the summary poetic/prophetic call to worship and know God that the last section of the book is made up of.
But I think the bride speaking pinpoints the time. If we had instead here "the Spirit says come," only the Spirit speaking, then I would agree with you.
quote:
Jee: As many scholars have pointed out, the book is not written in a linear-time format, but rather in a Hebraic apocalyptic/prophetic format. Thus, the phrase need not refer to an event after the Second Advent…
I agree that time shifts around within the book of Revelation, that the order of verses is not necessarily an order in time, and that the epilogue of "if anyone takes away from these words" is not to be assigned a time at all. But the appearance of this invitation in the middle of the description of the consummation of history speaks for it being given at this time, even if it applies to today as well. And again, the bride is speaking, are you saying she will not ever actually say this on her wedding day? That it's a theoretical speech?
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Jeff: From Rev. 21:2,9 it seems that the bride is just the city (New Jerusalem) itself, in which case the invitation is to PEOPLE to come and live in it…
But the city is the bride!
Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Jesus is not going to marry a glass and gold city!
quote:
Lee: How is there justice, if people have a punishment that lasts forever? Doesn't that mean justice is never satisfied…
Jeff: I think there is good REASON to believe that punishment is not eternal. I do NOT see, however, good reason to believe in universalism. And since the injustice problem is solved by finite punishment alone, why the need for universalism?
Because of other verses! I agree that this question does not call for universalism, but I think there are other verses that do give us reason to hope that all will be saved:
Exodus 15:15 ... all the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.
Zephaniah 2:5 O Canaan, land of the Philistines. "I will destroy you, and none will be left."
Psalm 87:4 "I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me-- Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush--and will say, 'This one was born in Zion.'"
Destruction, and yet salvation...
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
Registered Member
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| Posted 8/21/2004 8:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
quote:
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Jeff: From Rev. 21:2,9 it seems that the bride is just the city (New Jerusalem) itself, in which case the invitation is to PEOPLE to come and live in it…
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But the city is the bride!
Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Jesus is not going to marry a glass and gold city!
John was taken to see the bride. Rev. 21:10 and thereafter show that he was referring to the city. It may include the inhabitants to buttress your objection, but it doesn't change John's point. It is, by that view, the redeemed exhorting the readers of John's epistle that they can be part of that company IF they endure to the end - an unproved hypothetical at that point in time.
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Lee: How is there justice, if people have a punishment that lasts forever? Doesn't that mean justice is never satisfied…
Jeff: I think there is good REASON to believe that punishment is not eternal. I do NOT see, however, good reason to believe in universalism. And since the injustice problem is solved by finite punishment alone, why the need for universalism?
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Because of other verses! I agree that this question does not call for universalism, but I think there are other verses that do give us reason to hope that all will be saved:
Exodus 15:15 ... all the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.
Zephaniah 2:5 O Canaan, land of the Philistines. "I will destroy you, and none will be left."
Psalm 87:4 "I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me-- Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush--and will say, 'This one was born in Zion.'"
Destruction, and yet salvation...
If God is not CONSISTENTLY and CONTINUOUSLY advocating men's repentance (until His wrath is provoked by them, at least), whence your hope in universalism? You are trying to save God's benevolence from a calvinistic view of scripture alone, and I don't see how that can work logically. It seems to me, that we KNOW God is benevolent FIRST, and then we inductively approach the scripture with that in mind. But that would rule out the calvinistic approach, apriori. For all it does is complicate matters.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/22/2004 12:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Lee,
In view of the close proximity of these verses, I don't find your universalistic reading of v.17 to be reasonable.
Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
quote:
But the appearance of this invitation in the middle of the description of the consummation of history speaks for it being given at this time, even if it applies to today as well.
But the fact is that this statement does not appear "in the middle of the description of the consummation of history. It occurs one verse prior to the curse pronounced on those who would take words out of the book.
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And again, the bride is speaking, are you saying she will not ever actually say this on her wedding day? That it's a theoretical speech?
"Her wedding day?" Where does it say in this passage that this is speaking of her wedding day? Are you saying that anyone other than the Bride will be redeemed?
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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/22/2004 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Revelation 21:9 "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Lee: Jesus is not going to marry a glass and gold city!
Jeff: John was taken to see the bride. Rev. 21:10 and thereafter show that he was referring to the city. It may include the inhabitants to buttress your objection, but it doesn't change John's point. It is, by that view, the redeemed exhorting the readers of John's epistle that they can be part of that company IF they endure to the end - an unproved hypothetical at that point in time.
But the church today, is not the bride, nor was it in John's day:
2 Corinthians 11:2 I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
So the invitation given by believers, for others to come and believe, is not "the Spirit and the bride say 'Come!'", I would expect.
quote:
Jeff: If God is not CONSISTENTLY and CONTINUOUSLY advocating men's repentance (until His wrath is provoked by them, at least), whence your hope in universalism?
He is advocating repentance all the time, though:
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
quote:
Jeff: You are trying to save God's benevolence from a calvinistic view of scripture alone, and I don't see how that can work logically. It seems to me, that we KNOW God is benevolent FIRST, and then we inductively approach the scripture with that in mind. But that would rule out the calvinistic approach, apriori.
I don't think God's benevolence rules out God saving everyone, though. I think it actually argues for it. And if it is indeed God's decision that is primary in conversion, then that make the argument stronger, I think…
quote:
Jee: In view of the close proximity of these verses, I don't find your universalistic reading of v.17 to be reasonable.
Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
That's a good point! But we have to qualify this somewhere. You can decide that verses 18-19 is an eternal judgment, that once it's lost, it can never be regained, but this must come from other verses. Or you can decide that verse 17 is an invitation that stands as is, and say that verses 18-19 are not forever, or even that maybe no one has taken away from the book of Revelation. We still have it, actually…
quote:
Lee: But the appearance of this invitation in the middle of the description of the consummation of history speaks for it being given at this time, even if it applies to today as well.
Jee: … this statement does not appear "in the middle of the description of the consummation of history. It occurs one verse prior to the curse pronounced on those who would take words out of the book.
That is true, actually, the description is interspersed with some independent statements throughout.
quote:
Lee: And again, the bride is speaking, are you saying she will not ever actually say this on her wedding day? That it's a theoretical speech?
Jee: Where does it say in this passage that this is speaking of her wedding day? Are you saying that anyone other than the Bride will be redeemed?
Well, a woman is only a bride on her wedding day. And yes, I guess my view here does imply that people other than the Bride will be redeemed. I don't mind! Who will the overcomers rule, I would ask?
Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations…
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/22/2004 10:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
quote:
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Revelation 21:9 "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Lee: Jesus is not going to marry a glass and gold city!
Jeff: John was taken to see the bride. Rev. 21:10 and thereafter show that he was referring to the city. It may include the inhabitants to buttress your objection, but it doesn't change John's point. It is, by that view, the redeemed exhorting the readers of John's epistle that they can be part of that company IF they endure to the end - an unproved hypothetical at that point in time.
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But the church today, is not the bride, nor was it in John's day:
2 Corinthians 11:2 I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
So the invitation given by believers, for others to come and believe, is not "the Spirit and the bride say 'Come!'", I would expect.
Consider this verse that your quoted: Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations… It, as well as the warnings in the messages to the seven assemblies, imply that their election had yet to be proved. So the invitation can STILL mean what I was saying in context.
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Jeff: If God is not CONSISTENTLY and CONTINUOUSLY advocating men's repentance (until His wrath is provoked by them, at least), whence your hope in universalism?
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He is advocating repentance all the time, though:
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
But calvinism says if they don't repent it's because God determined that they not repent. That's the problem.
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Jeff: You are trying to save God's benevolence from a calvinistic view of scripture alone, and I don't see how that can work logically. It seems to me, that we KNOW God is benevolent FIRST, and then we inductively approach the scripture with that in mind. But that would rule out the calvinistic approach, apriori.
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I don't think God's benevolence rules out God saving everyone, though. I think it actually argues for it. And if it is indeed God's decision that is primary in conversion, then that make the argument stronger, I think…
If you only argued for God's decision in election you might have a point. But you argue that it is God's decision that people end up in the lake of fire, too. Again, that's the problem - it nullifies your hopefulness in a consistent benevolence of God.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 8/24/2004 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: But the church today, is not the bride… So the invitation given by believers, for others to come and believe, is not "the Spirit and the bride say 'Come!'", I would expect.
Jeff: Consider this verse that you quoted: Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations… It, as well as the warnings in the messages to the seven assemblies, imply that their election had yet to be proved. So the invitation can STILL mean what I was saying in context.
That's a long way to go for some context, though! But still, the important decision is "who is the bride?" I don't think Rev. 2:26 helps us make that decision.
quote:
Lee: He is advocating repentance all the time, though:
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Jeff: But calvinism says if they don't repent it's because God determined that they not repent. That's the problem.
But if all will be saved, then these exhortations are all eventually (and continually, insofar as they accomplish their purpose at the moment) effective…
quote:
Lee: I don't think God's benevolence rules out God saving everyone, though. I think it actually argues for it. And if it is indeed God's decision that is primary in conversion, then that make the argument stronger, I think…
Jeff: If you only argued for God's decision in election you might have a point. But you argue that it is God's decision that people end up in the lake of fire, too. Again, that's the problem - it nullifies your hopefulness in a consistent benevolence of God.
Not if suffering is in God's plan, for a good purpose! All suffering…
Isaiah 25:8 The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces…
Blessings,
Lee
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