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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/28/2004 10:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | Can somebody provide me an exegetical argument FOR universalism (as opposed simply to exegetical arguments for why eternal punishment passages need not NECESSARILY be taken in the traditional sense)? I keep hearing these passages offered as evidence that every person will eventually be saved:
1Cor 15: “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive” and when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God the Father, even God shall be “all in all.”
Phil. 2: “For God has given him a name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”
Rom. 14: “For as it is written (Isa. 45)—‘Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess’”
Isa 45 (the OT passage quoted by Paul in Rm. 14 and Phil 2)
To quickly comment:
1) I respect universalists who are passionate about sharing the love and life of Christ with the world, agree that such passion can be consistent with holding to universalism, and agree that universalism (some forms at least) is a viable option evangelicals can take.
2) I disagree with the line universalists commonly use against those who believe Scripture teaches eternal torment, namely, that the gospel is reduced to fire insurance. So universalists claim to be motivated by the conviction that knowing and loving Christ now in this life is a supreme blessing which in and of itself warrants whatever sacrifices we make to spread the gospel even though all are eventually saved, whereas proponents of eternal torment cannot share this motivating conviction. That doesn’t follow.
3) 1Cor 15’s “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive” does not, in its context, posit universal salvation. As I read it, Paul’s concern is the physical resurrection of believers. Just as all those who stand under Adam as their defining head die, so also all those who stand in Christ as their head (not everybody) shall live (i.e., be physically resurrected, as the immediately following words show—each in their order, first…then who? Those who are in Christ. It would make no sense in the middle of an extended argument for the physical resurrection of believers to claim that all human beings will “live” spiritually.
4) God’s being “all in all” hardly requires universalism. The words hardly mean that nothing other than God will exist. Universalism apparently understand the words to mean the day will come when God will be known and loved as God everywhere in the universe. God will be universally victorious. But why should I believe God is the sort of God who must be universally victorious in every way? And why cannot the words “all in all” simply mean that the reality of God will be brought to all things and persons where all accounts are settled. All is reconciled in the sense that all inherit the consequences of their choices for good or for bad. God can be all in all in THAT too.
5) The “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess” also doesn’t require universal salvation. The argument is that the language Paul uses here is limited to the willing/loving acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord and not some forced subjugation. Perhaps there’s a third option. Consider what else Paul says. The same words in Rom. 14 (quoting Isa. 45) are set in the context of a discussion about judging others, something Paul forbids because we “each shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of ourselves” (which in context is what it MEANS to bow and confess). I don’t get the feeling that the acknowledgment of “bowing” and “confessing” requires loving acknowledgment. No, I don’t think Christ will shove his rod to the backs of the necks of the unsaved and forced them to bow ‘against their will’. I think they’ll do so “willingly” but not as an act of love or saving faith. Vassal states can willingly bow to the authority of their occupiers in recognition of their victory and power without any more being implied. So I don’t see an argument for universalism in Paul’s claim that “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.” In addition, the passage in Isa. 45 from which Paul quotes expressly admits that not every single person will conform. Not only does the context set the fulfillment of these words within the nations and peoples who were to witness the return of Jews to Palestine (in recognition that Israel’s God is “the” God, in which case the passage was not fulfilled if “every person without exception” is what’s intended), but after saying every knee will bow and every tongue confess the writer immediately qualifies the scope of the promise by noting that “those who are enraged will be put to shame.” So not even the original context of the passage Paul’s working from excludes the possibility that “some” will refuse to bow their knee and confess. Interesting.
All in all, there’s nothing in these passages that even remotely suggests universal salvation. If univeralists want to say, “Hey, look, universalism doesn’t come FROM exegesis; it’s a theological construct that we’ve come up with to deal with what seems TO US to be problems with the eternal torment view. The text doesn’t ask for universalism, but neither does it forbid it,” then fine; that’s cool. But I’ve heard universalists (off the subject a bit) criticize the gap theory for precisely this reason, viz., an exegesis of the text of Genesis doesn’t yield or require the gap theory. It’s just a theologically motivated understanding of the text. Hmmm. Kinda like universalism, eh?
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apple
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Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 8/29/2004 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting discussion. In regard to universalism, the one thing that really seems to matter is the way believing in it would change how we live our lives. For those that believe in eternal torment, how does that help you live now? For those that embrace universalism, same question. I'm in the process of trying on both. So far, I think I'm with Tom on this. I can't seem to walk in universalism fully because of verses in scripture that suggest we choose life (while it can be chosen)for a purpose (to live freely and in love now as well as eternally and to help others do the same) and that Jesus seems to constantly insist on the existence of something that opposes Heaven.
Luke 12:4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! 6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. 8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. 32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NASV
Isaiah 34:8-10; Daniel 12:2; Matthew 3:12; 18:8; 25:41,46; Mark 3:29; Luke 3:17; John 5:29; Hebrews 6:2; 10:28-31; Revelation 14:10,11; 19:3; 20:10 and on and on it goes.
If the hope of universal salvation profits us in some way, I say ok. If it is a panacea that helps us feel better about hell and move closer to God, I say ok too. Anything that does not push us away from Christ, I consider helpful in living life here and now. I don't think God is going to judge anyone for hoping all will be saved - even if they deny eternal torment.
On the other hand, if it makes us lazy (because essentially our work is done if all are saved) then I don't think it's helpful. Or, if in some way it pushes us away from Christ (because we are confused by the eternal torment references or whatever) then perhaps we should stick to the classical view of hell.
Or maybe everyone can move with me toward accepting annihilation 
I don't know.
~just adding my one cent :)
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apple
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Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 8/29/2004 5:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How do you reconcile your pragmatic approach to Christ's statement that it is the truth that sets us free. Was He talking only of one specific truth?
Hello Jee,
In short, I reconcile it by recognizing the fact that we are all called to seek and all promised we will find. If He was talking of one specific truth (ie. Himself) then I honestly think we will be lead to Him more effectively though the means of agape love than through anything else. If He was talking about truth (many- as in all theological truths) then I think we are all doomed. We cannot be "free" if we are required to be correct in everything we believe. That would bind us more than anything.
So, if the truth sets us free, I guess day by day and thought by thought I'll seek Him. If anything stands in my way and hinders that process... I'll get rid of it in order to keep moving toward Him.
How's that?
Bless You,
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/29/2004 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom-
quote:
3) 1Cor 15’s “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive” does not, in its context, posit universal salvation. As I read it, Paul’s concern is the physical resurrection of believers. Just as all those who stand under Adam as their defining head die, so also all those who stand in Christ as their head (not everybody) shall live (i.e., be physically resurrected, as the immediately following words show—each in their order, first…then who? Those who are in Christ. It would make no sense in the middle of an extended argument for the physical resurrection of believers to claim that all human beings will “live” spiritually.
1 Cor. 15:22 "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."
The phrase "For even as" marks a close parallel. The universality of death through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told "in Christ all shall be vivified."
quote:
Just as all those who stand under Adam as their defining head die, so also all those who stand in Christ as their head (not everybody) shall live (i.e., be physically resurrected, as the immediately following words show—each in their order, first…then who? Those who are in Christ.
You do not mention the third group, marked by the word "thereafter"
The Firstfruit, Christ
Thereupon those in Christ in His presence
1 Cor. 15:24 "thereafter the consummation"
This is when the third and final group of mankind will be vivified in Christ.
quote:
God will be universally victorious. But why should I believe God is the sort of God who must be universally victorious in every way? And why cannot the words “all in all” simply mean that the reality of God will be brought to all things and persons where all accounts are settled. All is reconciled in the sense that all inherit the consequences of their choices for good or for bad. God can be all in all in THAT too.
God created man in His own image. God wills all mankind to be saved (1Tim 2:4). Paul states that God is the Savior of all mankind (1 Tim 4:10). Paul states that God is reconciling the world through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:19). How could God truly be victorious unless His will is fulfilled in saving all? How can the victory of the cross be complete unless it saves the whole world? How can you claim that God will be victorious when a majority of mankind (whom He created in His image) will be seperated from Him for eternity?
quote:
If univeralists want to say, “Hey, look, universalism doesn’t come FROM exegesis; it’s a theological construct that we’ve come up with to deal with what seems TO US to be problems with the eternal torment view. The text doesn’t ask for universalism, but neither does it forbid it,” then fine; that’s cool. But I’ve heard universalists (off the subject a bit) criticize the gap theory for precisely this reason, viz., an exegesis of the text of Genesis doesn’t yield or require the gap theory. It’s just a theologically motivated understanding of the text. Hmmm. Kinda like universalism, eh?
John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God who is taking away the sins of the world."
Rom. 3:22 "yet, a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing" (Note the 2 groups, the all and on all who are believing)
Rom. 5:18 "AS it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying."
2 Cor. 5:14 "For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all[/i], consequently all died."
Col. 1:20 (b) "and through Him (Christ) to reconcile all to Him (The Father) making peace through the blood of His cross, through Him, whether those on the earth or thos in the heavens."
Eph. 1:10 (b) "to head up all in Christ-both that in the heavens and that on the earth."
I believe the exegesis of these verses make the reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ quite plain and evident. I believe that the theology of eternal torment in hell has been developed by a mistranslation of the Greek words aion, aionios and aionon. Both of these facts fortify my belief that God will reconcile all to Himself through Jesus Christ just as He has stated in the scriptures.
Lock
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/29/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by apple
Interesting discussion. In regard to universalism, the one thing that really seems to matter is the way believing in it would change how we live our lives. For those that believe in eternal torment, how does that help you live now? For those that embrace universalism, same question. I'm in the process of trying on both. So far, I think I'm with Tom on this. I can't seem to walk in universalism fully because of verses in scripture that suggest we choose life (while it can be chosen)for a purpose (to live freely and in love now as well as eternally and to help others do the same) and that Jesus seems to constantly insist on the existence of something that opposes Heaven.
Luke 12:4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! 6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. 8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. 32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NASV
Isaiah 34:8-10; Daniel 12:2; Matthew 3:12; 18:8; 25:41,46; Mark 3:29; Luke 3:17; John 5:29; Hebrews 6:2; 10:28-31; Revelation 14:10,11; 19:3; 20:10 and on and on it goes.
If the hope of universal salvation profits us in some way, I say ok. If it is a panacea that helps us feel better about hell and move closer to God, I say ok too. Anything that does not push us away from Christ, I consider helpful in living life here and now. I don't think God is going to judge anyone for hoping all will be saved - even if they deny eternal torment.
On the other hand, if it makes us lazy (because essentially our work is done if all are saved) then I don't think it's helpful. Or, if in some way it pushes us away from Christ (because we are confused by the eternal torment references or whatever) then perhaps we should stick to the classical view of hell.
Or maybe everyone can move with me toward accepting annihilation
I don't know.
~just adding my one cent :)
apple
Apple,
Thanks for adding to the discussion. I think you are correct that God will take us down the path that will keep us most faithful to His purposes and will.
quote:
Isaiah 34:8-10; Daniel 12:2; Matthew 3:12; 18:8; 25:41,46; Mark 3:29; Luke 3:17; John 5:29; Hebrews 6:2; 10:28-31; Revelation 14:10,11; 19:3; 20:10 and on and on it goes.
I do have to say that each one of these verses have to be taken out of context, or a mistrtanslation of the Hebrew "olam" or the Graak "aion" and their relative words in order to fit the concept of eternal torment in hell as the christian church sees it. Just food for thought  .
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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apple
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 8/30/2004 12:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Lock,
You said each of those verses had to be taken out of context in order to fit the concept of eternal torment. I say shucks, that's what I get for cutting "related verses" without taking extra time to look each one up!
I guess that shows how much I'm really concerned about this issue ;)
As more food for thought though, I'd love it if you would show me (specifically) the error of my ways by posting the true Hebrew and Greek translation of "forever and ever" and "eternal" in each verse and then illuminating the out of context usage. Here, I'll even get you started. Thanks!!
Matthew 25:41,46 "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ...46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
Daniel 12:2Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
Revelation 14:10they will also drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name
Isaiah 34:8For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of vindication by Zion's cause. 9And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch.10Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever
Hebrews 6:2 ...instruction about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin
Luke 12:10"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him. *this is just a bonus verse-I'm looking for your help because I don't get it.*
Matthew 18:8"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire
Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire
Luke 3:17 -identical to the mat. 3:12 ref.
John 5:29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment...
Revelation 20:10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Blessings,
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/30/2004 1:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
[/size=1]
John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God who is taking away the sins of the world."
Rom. 3:22 "yet, a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing" (Note the 2 groups, the all and on all who are believing)
Rom. 5:18 "AS it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying."
2 Cor. 5:14 "For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all[/i], consequently all died."
These verses only indicate universalism if the penal substitution/satisfaction theories of the atonement are presupposed. But Scripture reveals clearly that the atonement, in and of itself, saves no one, apart from their repentance and faith in it.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/30/2004 4:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock: 1 Cor. 15:22 "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." The phrase "For even as" marks a close parallel. The universality of death through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told "in Christ all shall be vivified."
Tom: All agree a close parallel is being made, Lock. What I’ve suggested doesn’t deny this. Just as all “in Adam” die (which is all of us universally) so all “in Christ” will be made alive (which is not all of us universally as Paul’s own explanation shows). Plus, if dying and being made alive here are physical death and physical resurrection (which the context appears to made obviously clear), then there’s nothing here to affirm or deny the claim of universal salvation. In short, you’re claiming “all” in both cases is the same group of people (all without exception) and you’re claiming that “being made alive” refers to being made spiritually alive, i.e., being granted salvation. But given the context, neither seems to be the case.
Lock: You do not mention the third group, marked by the word "thereafter"
The Firstfruit, Christ
Thereupon those in Christ in His presence
1 Cor. 15:24 "thereafter the consummation"
This is when the third and final group of mankind will be vivified in Christ.
Tom: But THIS passage cannot be used as evidence for this belief. Where does Paul here say that at the consummation a further group of people will be vivified in Christ? He doesn’t. He simply says “thereafter the consummation when Christ delivers the kingdom to the Father,” which to me would preclude any further work (regarding salvation or mission). Consummation is just that. If you’re tallying the score after the final buzzer, you don’t have people out on the floor still taking shots. It’s over.
Lock: God created man in His own image. God wills all mankind to be saved (1Tim 2:4). Paul states that God is the Savior of all mankind (1 Tim 4:10). Paul states that God is reconciling the world through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:19). How could God truly be victorious unless His will is fulfilled in saving all? How can the victory of the cross be complete unless it saves the whole world? How can you claim that God will be victorious when a majority of mankind (whom He created in His image) will be seperated from Him for eternity?
Tom: The same way I can claim Kasparov’s victory is real and complete even if he lost SOME pieces in the process of playing a match. I don’t find your notion of “victory” any different in the end than the determinists. There’s the same assumption that God always gets what he wants.
Lock: John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God who is taking away the sins of the world." Rom. 3:22 "yet, a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing" (Note the 2 groups, the all and on all who are believing) Rom. 5:18 "AS it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying." 2 Cor. 5:14 "For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died." Col. 1:20 (b) "and through Him (Christ) to reconcile all to Him (The Father) making peace through the blood of His cross, through Him, whether those on the earth or thos in the heavens." Eph. 1:10 (b) "to head up all in Christ-both that in the heavens and that on the earth."
I believe the exegesis of these verses make the reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ quite plain and evident.
Tom: The exegesis of these verses makes universalism a possible view at best.
Lock: I believe that the theology of eternal torment in hell has been developed by a mistranslation of the Greek words aion, aionios and aionon. Both of these facts fortify my belief that God will reconcile all to Himself through Jesus Christ just as He has stated in the scriptures.
Tom: So exegete them for me. You’ve posted them, but as I read ‘em I don’t see anything that entails universal salvation. Take me by the hand and show me where these verses each claim the universal salvation of every individual.
I'm on the road, but when I get a chance I'd like to post a comment or two on your understanding of "aion."
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scott_jorgenson
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 8/30/2004 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi all,
I don't have any direct comment on the issue of universalism at this time, but I was wondering something from the sidelines:
All of those engaged in this debate (and in most theological debates in Christianity) seem to presuppose that, in the case of most if not all questions, there is some uniform teaching in scripture which is discernible through exegesis.
I personally don't share that view, for reasons more fully explicated elsewhere in this forum. I think if it were true, then we wouldn't have to try so hard to exegete and harmonize. The full and complete truths would instead simply be plainly stated and repeated without tension wherever in the Bible the subject comes up. The very fact that we have, over the centuries, dozens of major Christian denominations, and hundreds or thousands of sects and particular doctrinal systems, should be an enormous clue to us that God has not given us a scripture which exegetically teaches uniformly and plainly on all things.
As far as I can tell, scripture only everywhere testifies to one almighty creator, God, who loves us but places moral incumbency on us against which we fall short, and who (in the New Testament uniformly) provides us Jesus Christ as a Savior in some way to reconcile us with God. Everything else is disputable and questionable because such secondary matters are witnessed-to divergently to greater or lesser degree, as far as simple literal (historical-grammatical) exegesis goes. This includes such major areas as the sovereignty and free-will debates, christology (what is Jesus' nature and in what way is he Savior), soteriology (who is saved and how), and etc; as well as subcategories such as (within soteriology) universalism. Scripture has universalist passages, and final-punishment passages, and these simply stand in tension. We can harmonize, but when we do, we theorize. Nothing wrong with that, except that we should not fool ourselves into thinking we are merely exegeting the plain uniform meaning across the whole biblical witness. This should give us some self-conscious humility and tentativeness in what we say (which is not to say that I perceive these qualities to be lacking here in this forum - far from it, in fact).
My two cents,
Scott
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/30/2004 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tom: So exegete them for me. You’ve posted them, but as I read ‘em I don’t see anything that entails universal salvation. Take me by the hand and show me where these verses each claim the universal salvation of every individual.
Tom-
I will attempt to do as you have requested by going through those posted by Apple.
quote:
Tom: All agree a close parallel is being made, Lock. What I’ve suggested doesn’t deny this. Just as all “in Adam” die (which is all of us universally) so all “in Christ” will be made alive (which is not all of us universally as Paul’s own explanation shows). Plus, if dying and being made alive here are physical death and physical resurrection (which the context appears to made obviously clear), then there’s nothing here to affirm or deny the claim of universal salvation. In short, you’re claiming “all” in both cases is the same group of people (all without exception) and you’re claiming that “being made alive” refers to being made spiritually alive, i.e., being granted salvation. But given the context, neither seems to be the case.
The verse does not read all those in Christ will be made alive. The all that are dying in Adam is the same all that will be made alive in Christ. Which eventually brings us to the All in All in verse 28.
quote:
Tom: But THIS passage cannot be used as evidence for this belief. Where does Paul here say that at the consummation a further group of people will be vivified in Christ? He doesn’t. He simply says “thereafter the consummation when Christ delivers the kingdom to the Father,” which to me would preclude any further work (regarding salvation or mission). Consummation is just that. If you’re tallying the score after the final buzzer, you don’t have people out on the floor still taking shots. It’s over.
At the consummation the last enemy will be abolished. This last enemy is death. Those who are in the lake of fire and brimstone are in the second death. The second death will be around during the new heavens and new earth. At the consummation, death will be abolished and those in the second death will be made alive in Christ.
quote:
There’s the same assumption that God always gets what he wants.
If the mistake I make is that I assume that God always gets what He wants, then I am 100% quilty. He is God. He will get what He wants. I can assume nothing less.
Lock
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/30/2004 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God who is taking away the sins of the world."
Rom. 3:22 "yet, a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing" (Note the 2 groups, the all and on all who are believing)
Rom. 5:18 "AS it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying."
2 Cor. 5:14 "For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all[/i], consequently all died."
These verses only indicate universalism if the penal substitution/satisfaction theories of the atonement are presupposed. But Scripture reveals clearly that the atonement, in and of itself, saves no one, apart from their repentance and faith in it.
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JEE-
I am not clear exactlty what the penal substitution/satisfaction theories of the atonement entail. Would you please clarify for me?
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
As more food for thought though, I'd love it if you would show me (specifically) the error of my ways by posting the true Hebrew and Greek translation of "forever and ever" and "eternal" in each verse and then illuminating the out of context usage. Here, I'll even get you started. Thanks!!
Apple-
Time restraints do not allow me to do this at this moment, but I will be happy to begin this task tonight. Please understand that my intention is not to attack you or your beliefs by showing you "the errors of your ways", I am only presenting what I believe is found in the scriptures which may not follow suit with christian theology. More food for thought; why have the phrase forever and ever? Will forever end and then a new ever begin? This does not make sense. The bible uses this type of phrase as to show something's standing when compare to others such as, King of kings, Lord of lords, Holies of Holies. The "aion"'s of "aion"'s are the 2 coming ages or eons (the millenial reign of the Messiah and the new heavens and new earth) that are more glorious than all others before them. More will follow tonight...
Lock
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Tom
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| Posted 8/30/2004 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock: The verse does not read all those in Christ will be made alive. The all that are dying in Adam is the same all that will be made alive in Christ. Which eventually brings us to the All in All in verse 28.
Tom: Well, I’d certainly disagree with this. As I pointed out, Paul interprets himself. Those who are made alive in Christ in v. 22 are described in v. 23 as those belonging to Christ. You posit a further “making alive” of those who are not Christ’s in v. 24 “at the end when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God,” words which make no mention whatsoever of “making alive” or “resurrection.”
Lock: At the consummation the last enemy will be abolished. This last enemy is death. Those who are in the lake of fire and brimstone are in the second death. The second death will be around during the new heavens and new earth. At the consummation, death will be abolished and those in the second death will be made alive in Christ.
Tom: I’m quite familiar with the timetable and claims. It’s evidence that I was looking for.
Lock: If the mistake I make is that I assume that God always gets what He wants, then I am 100% quilty. He is God. He will get what He wants. I can assume nothing less.
Tom: Then it's THAT ASSUMPTION that drives your exegesis. That’s all I was after. In the end universalism is theologically driven view. We have philosophical/theological reasons for believing God would not leave the wicked to suffer eternally. Hey, that’s cool. We all do some of this. I'm just looking for reasons for believing THIS ASSUMPTION about God is in fact correct. I've heard a lot about God's LOVE being indestructable. But then I recall verses like that of Paul's in 1Cor 13 in which he claims: "Love does not insist on its own way." Hmmm. But hey, if others are correct that Paul is sometimes theologically wrong, then what the hell (literally!)?
Perhaps you can understand why I question open theists who criticize determinists for assuming God is the sort of person who is incapable of NOT always getting what he wants, but then proceed to argue FOR universalism on the basis that God must get what he wants in this instance.
Lock: The "aion"'s of "aion"'s are the 2 coming ages or eons (the millenial reign of the Messiah and the new heavens and new earth) that are more glorious than all others before them.
Tom: Two things: (1) How would a universalist who was NOT a premillennialist argue the meaning of “aion of aion’s”? (2) If someone writing in Greek 2,000 years ago WANTED to claim that some state of affairs would continue on infinitely into the future without ever ending, how would he express it?
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JEE
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| Posted 8/30/2004 1:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God who is taking away the sins of the world."
Rom. 3:22 "yet, a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing" (Note the 2 groups, the all and on all who are believing)
Rom. 5:18 "AS it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying."
2 Cor. 5:14 "For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all[/i], consequently all died."
These verses only indicate universalism if the penal substitution/satisfaction theories of the atonement are presupposed. But Scripture reveals clearly that the atonement, in and of itself, saves no one, apart from their repentance and faith in it.
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JEE-
I am not clear exactlty what the penal substitution/satisfaction theories of the atonement entail. Would you please clarify for me?
Perhaps one of the most frequent illustrative devices used to explain it is that of "sin-debt payment," by which it is meant that on Calvary Jesus paid the debt of sin for the object of His redemptive purposes. Imputation is another way of expressing this, by which is meant that the believers' sins were all imputed/credited to Christ on Calvary, and Christ's righteousness is at the same time imputed to believers. If this theory is true, then universalism necessarily follows, for in stark contradistinction to classic Calvinism, the Bible plainly reveals that Christ tasted death for everyone, and that his death was the mercy-seat/propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
The problem both Calvinism and Universalism seem to ignore is that nowhere in Scripture is Christ's death spoken of as a payment of debt, a satisfaction of God's wrath, or as an imputative (quid pro quo) transaction. The Bible speaks of Christ's death as a ransom or redemption price, and everyone can see that there is a great difference between a debt paid and a ransom paid. If a ransom, then the conditionality of the freedom offered to all who will repent and believe is sustained.
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 2:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tom: Well, I’d certainly disagree with this. As I pointed out, Paul interprets himself. Those who are made alive in Christ in v. 22 are described in v. 23 as those belonging to Christ. You posit a further “making alive” of those who are not Christ’s in v. 24 “at the end when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God,” words which make no mention whatsoever of “making alive” or “resurrection.”
quote:
Tom: I’m quite familiar with the timetable and claims. It’s evidence that I was looking for.
After the statement that even as all are dying in Adam, thus also, in Christ shall all be made alive or vivified (CLNT), Paul states, "yet each in his own class". Paul continues to give the order and it is marked by certain words... the Firstfruit Christ, thereupon those who are Christ's at His presence, thereafter the consummation. The Greek word translated "thereafter"in the CLNT is eita. According to Thayer's Lexicon it "marks a sequence" and is also translated "after that" (it is translated "then" in the KJV). Paul uses the same word earlier in the chapter when he was marking the sequence of those who saw Cgrist after His resurrection.
1 Cor. 15:5 "And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve"
15:7 (a), "After that, He was seen of James..."
Each usage is making a sequence and that is Pauls intention in verse 24 when he marks the third class "made alive" in Christ.
quote:
Tom: Two things: (1) How would a universalist who was NOT a premillennialist argue the meaning of “aion of aion’s”? (2) If someone writing in Greek 2,000 years ago WANTED to claim that some state of affairs would continue on infinitely into the future without ever ending, how would he express it?
(1) I really can't answer that because I do not claim to be a universalist/unitarian. I claim only to be a student of the word.
(2)akataiputos "endless" (Heb 7:16)
aperantos "endless" (1 Tim. 1:4)
aci "ever" Mark 15:8 "Alway" or "always" (Acts 7:51, 2 Cor. 4:11, ETC)
pantote "always" (Mark 14:7)
eis to dienekes = that which is continuous ((Heb. 7:3)
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Tom
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| Posted 8/30/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Lock. I'm familiar with the sequence. What is not required by 'epeita' and 'eita' is that at the final in the sequence, i.e., "the end," resurrections also take place. Paul may just as well limit the resurrection in question to the second in the sequence (the resurrection of those who belong to Christ) and reserve the third to introduce a new item, in this case the consummation. And the fact that after introducing "the end" he describes items not discussed before suggests as much.
But my original point (which seems to have gotten lost) is that even IF it's true that the resurrection of believers takes place at his coming and the resurrection of unbelievers takes place later (i.e., at the end), it's still the case that this posits nothing but their physical resurrection. It doesn't entail their salvation. The passage thus understood (that is, agreeing that physical resurrection extends to the third items in the order) is perfectly compatible with eternal torment. Unbelievers are raised to judgment.
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Apple-
I will try to get through as many of these verses as I can tonight, but please bear with me if I can only get through some tonight and the others at another time. I will try to keep things short and to the point, so I may not quote every passage, but I am sure that you will check them for yourself.
quote:
Matthew 25:41,46 "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ...46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
First this judgement is the judgment of the nations (v. 32)when Jesus returns to set up the kingdom of heaven. Note that their are 3 distict groups spoken of here. (1) the "goat" nations (2) the "sheep" nations and (3) Jesus' brethern (Israel). The judgment of the nations is based on how they treat Israel during their time of trouble otherwise called the tribulation. Those nation that have treated Israel respectfully will be welcomed into the kingdom. On the other hand those nations that have mistreated the Lord's brethern will recieve "aionon" punishment. Robert Young translates "aionon" as age-abiding or pertaining to the age. Rev 19:15 tells us that Jesus will be shepardung the nations with an iron club (also read Joel 3 to see the Messiah judging the heathen nations in the valley of decision. This judgment pertains to the age of the millennial reign of Christ and takes place a full thousand years before the white throne judgment, cp Rev. 20:6). They are clearly 2 seperate judgments, and the "aion" or age spoken of here has a definite beginning and end and we are told it will last a thousand years.
quote:
Daniel 12:2Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
The first resurrection (to "olam" life) will take place when Jesus returns to set up the kingdom spoken of in Dan 2:44 and Rev. 20:4-6. The second resurrection (to shame and "olam" contempt) will take place at the white throne judgment(Rev. 20:5, 12-15). The Companion Bible defines the Hebrew word "olam" as follows- "the word is derived from alam (to hide) and means the hidden time or age." "Olam" is used to describe to time Jonah was in the whale and we know that was three days and three nights, not for ever.
quote:
Revelation 14:10they will also drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name
The smoke of their torment will go up for the eons of the eons (that is during the millennial reign of Christ and the new heavens and new earth). The no rest night and day refers to the following chapters in Revelations where the calamities are so sever that men wish they were dead and death eludes them. Especially the sores, these definitely will not allow those with the beast's mark to have rest day or night.
quote:
Isaiah 34:8For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of vindication by Zion's cause. 9And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch.10Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever
This judgment will last throughout the "olam"'s of the "olam"'s. This phrase is like King of kings or Lord of lords, or holies of holies. The olams of olams are the final 2 eons (the millennium and the new heavens and new earth)which are more glorious then the others before it.
quote:
Hebrews 6:2 ...instruction about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment
Hebrews is written to the despersion of Israel. This "aionon" judgment speaks of the age of the Messiah or His reign here on earth (Rev. 5:10) which Israel will participate in. Note that the writer is telling them to leave these basic principles behind to be brought on to maturity.
quote:
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin
Luke 12:10"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him. *this is just a bonus verse-I'm looking for your help because I don't get it.*
I lumped these together because they speak of the same thing. It is also recorded in Mattew 12:24-32. Jesus has just cast out a demon and the people were started to think He may be the messiah. The Pharisees right away claim that Jesus casts out demons bythe power of beezeboul or Satan himself. That is where Jesus says they are blaspheming the spirit of God (of which He is castign out demons) and that this would not be forgiven in this aion nor in the aion to come(verse 32). If aion meant forever, how could there be a forever to come? Instead Jesus declares that this sin will not be forgiven during this current age nor inthe age to come (the millennial reign of Christ).
quote:
Matthew 18:8"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire
This speaks of the fires of Gehenna and being that "aionon" means pertaining to an age, this judgment pertains to the age of the millennial reign of Christ or the kingdom out of the heavens mentioned in Dan. 2:44 and Rev. 5:10 and 20:4-6. Luke 12:5 and Isaiah 66:23-24 tell us that the dead bodies of those who transgress against the Lord will be burned in the valley of gehenna. Note that they are dead bodies, not alive and being tormented! Plus, this judgment takes place during the millennal reign of Christ which takes place before the white throne judgment; they are seperate judgments.
[quote]Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire
Luke 3:17 -identical to the mat. 3:12 ref.
This happens when Jesus returns to set up the kingdom. In Matt. 13:39-43 Jesus tells His disciples that "at the end of the aion" his angels will gather all the "darnel" from out of the kingdom and they will be burned up with fire. When the "darnel" percieve their fate, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but note they are burned up, not eternally tormented.
quote:
John 5:29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment...
This is the same as the Daniel 12:2 refernce above.
quote:
Revelation 20:10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
This is the only passage in scripture that clearly states who will be tormented day and night in the lake of fire and brimstone throughout the eons of the eons. It is clear that these 3 supernatural beings are the only ones tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone (Satan, the beast, and the false prophet) and it is fitting according ot their crimes. This is seperated from the rest of the dead which the lake of fire and brimstone for them is "the second death".
I hope this has been helpful and I apoligize for the legnth.
Lock
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Thanks Lock. I'm familiar with the sequence. What is not required by 'epeita' and 'eita' is that at the final in the sequence, i.e., "the end," resurrections also take place. Paul may just as well limit the resurrection in question to the second in the sequence (the resurrection of those who belong to Christ) and reserve the third to introduce a new item, in this case the consummation. And the fact that after introducing "the end" he describes items not discussed before suggests as much.
But my original point (which seems to have gotten lost) is that even IF it's true that the resurrection of believers takes place at his coming and the resurrection of unbelievers takes place later (i.e., at the end), it's still the case that this posits nothing but their physical resurrection. It doesn't entail their salvation. The passage thus understood (that is, agreeing that physical resurrection extends to the third items in the order) is perfectly compatible with eternal torment. Unbelievers are raised to judgment.
Tom
Tom-
I used to think that myself. But if this were only speaking of physical resurrection then it would create a contradiction because Paul claims Christ is the firstfruits. There were people in the bible physically raised from the dead before Christ. The difference between them and Christ is that they all eventually died again where as Christ lives. The key is in the Greek word zoopoieo which is translated in the CLNT "vivfied". Not only will we be physically raised from the dead but we will also be vivfied which is life beyond the reach of death, putting on the immortal, the incurruptable.
John 5:21 "for even as the Father is rousing the dead and vivifying, thus the Son is vivifying whom He will." Note the 2 groups here.
Rom. 4:17, 18 "...God Who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were."
Those who are raised to stand before the white throne are only physically raised for they will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Rev 20:11-15 speaks nothing of vivication. But the second death will be abolished at the consummation and those who are in the state of unconscious death will then be vivified in Christ.
Lock
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The problem both Calvinism and Universalism seem to ignore is that nowhere in Scripture is Christ's death spoken of as a payment of debt, a satisfaction of God's wrath, or as an imputative (quid pro quo) transaction. The Bible speaks of Christ's death as a ransom or redemption price, and everyone can see that there is a great difference between a debt paid and a ransom paid. If a ransom, then the conditionality of the freedom offered to all who will repent and believe is sustained.
JEE-
I still do not clearly see what you are saying. Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death. Romans 8 tells us that the disposition of the flesh is death (v. 6). The spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees us from the law of sin and death (8:2). For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh, that the just requirement of the law may be fufilled in us, who are not walking in accord with the flesh, but in accod with the spirit (8:2-4)
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JEE
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| Posted 8/30/2004 7:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I still do not clearly see what you are saying. Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death.
Yes, spiritual death.
quote:
Romans 8 tells us that the disposition of the flesh is death (v. 6).
What translation uses "disposition of the flesh?" All the ones I'm aware of say, "the minding of the flesh" or "the mind set on the flesh." Which of course, I agree with--the mind set on the flesh (selfishness, which is sin) means death.
quote:
The spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees us from the law of sin and death (8:2).
Amen, though again, what translation are you using? In any case, I'm very glad we agree that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us from the law of sin and death.
quote:
For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh, that the just requirement of the law may be fufilled in us, who are not walking in accord with the flesh, but in accod with the spirit (8:2-4)
From my understanding, the reason the flesh has been weakened is because of the physical depravity (lack of perfect physical health) we inherit from Adam, which powerfully incites infants to seek to please self to the extent that once they reach the age of moral accountability, they will in fact choose to violate the moral law that bears witness in their conscience (Romans 2). This, combined with the pervasive bad examples they see, serves to assure that a child will commit sin at a young age. Once this happens, as Jesus says, "he that committeth sin is the SLAVE of sin," and the child finds himself devoted to further and further selfishness, which, unless interposed upon by godly parental discipline, will continue to progress in moral depravity.
And so I agree with the FACT that all people, prior to their regeneration by the Spirit of God are "fast bound in sin," and without the influence of the Holy Spirit, they will not ever obey God. They cannot because they will not. What is needed is a profoundly powerful influence, like Christ's death on Calvary and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, to bring them to repentance and faith in Christ.
But this bondage to sin does not remain within those who are fully consecrated, regenerated, sanctified, and empowered by the Spirit of Christ, as the Romans 8 passage you cited so perfectly illustrates.
Rom 8:12 ¶ So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
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