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Roofus
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 8/31/2004 7:31 PM (GMT -6) |   |
I lumped these together because they speak of the same thing. It is also recorded in Mattew 12:24-32. Jesus has just cast out a demon and the people were started to think He may be the messiah. The Pharisees right away claim that Jesus casts out demons bythe power of beezeboul or Satan himself. That is where Jesus says they are blaspheming the spirit of God (of which He is castign out demons) and that this would not be forgiven in this aion nor in the aion to come(verse 32). If aion meant forever, how could there be a forever to come? Instead Jesus declares that this sin will not be forgiven during this current age nor inthe age to come (the millennial reign of Christ).
It could mean forever if the age to come is an age without end, right?
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/31/2004 7:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE-
The transaltion I used is the Concordant Literal New Testament.
quote:
quote:
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I still do not clearly see what you are saying. Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death.
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Yes, spiritual death.
Why do you think this refers to spiritual death? If it is spiritual death why does it not clearly state it here or another place in scripture?
Lock
Lock
If it refers to physical death or eternal death, then people would have to instantly die the first time they sinned.
why do you say that?
Because "the soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:4, 20). Reading the entire chapter of Ezek. 18 reveals that a sinner can repent and LIVE. If the death spoken of were physical, then there would have to be a physical resurrection in order for the sinner who repents could live. Try reading Ezek. 18 with physical death in mind, and then try reading it with spiritual death in mind, and see which one fits the context and doesn't contradict itself. (I guarantee you that "physical death" in this passage, as well as Romans 8, involves us in irresolvable contradictions, like physically dead people repenting, etc).
The new life believers experience in Christ, spoken of in Romans 6, refers to us as being "buried with Him in baptism into death, so that, JUST AS Christ was raised from the dead by teh glory of the Father SO we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom. 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Paul goes on to tell us to "reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God," etc., so the death spoken of as "dead in trespasses and sins" refers to the depraved state of living that all the unregenerate find themselves in. They are spiritually dead until they die to sin through being crucified with Christ.
Spiritual death is also the only kind of "death" that makes sense in Romans 8:
Romans 8:6To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
(The parallel seems to be spiritual death with spiritual life).
7For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Those whose mind is set on the flesh)
9 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
I submit that this passage makes no sense at all if we suppose physical death is what Paul is talking about.
11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
(Try reading Romans 8:1-14 placing "physical" in front of every occurence of "death" in the passage, and then read it again, inserting "spiritual" in the same places--I think what I'm saying will become plain).
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/1/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE-
After reading through Ezek. 18, I still do not see the bible teaching a “spiritual” death. I will try to present why as clearly, but also as concise as I can. I believe we have to start with the giving of the Law to Israel in Ex. 19. In verse 5 and 6 God tells Moses why He is giving the Law to Israel, “Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And ye shall be unto me a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and a holy nation. These are the words you are to speak unto the children of Israel.”
If Israel would have been able to keep God’s covenant, they would have become this kingdom of priests and would have took their place above all nations and would have fulfilled their role as priests and began to teach all nations. But Israel was unable to do this due to the weakness of the flesh (Rom. 8). But still, the requirement to enter this kingdom (which will be when Jesus returns) was to keep the commandments. Lev. 18:5, “Ye shall therefore keep My statues, and My judgments; which if a man do, he shall live in them; I am the Lord.”
This is what is being said in Ezek. 18. There are obvious parallels between Ezek. 18 and the Law given to Israel. If a man keeps the commandments, thus not sinning, he shall live, if not, then dying he shall die. This life is life during the age of the Messiah’s kingdom (see Rev. 5:10) and the age to follow. The death is spoken of here is forfeiture of the allotment in this kingdom and God’s rest that follows the New Jerusalem.
Notice when John the Baptist and Jesus came they declared, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” They did not speak of faith in Christ for entrance into the kingdom but instead Christ spoke of the requirements found in the law (Matt. 5, 6, and 7). When the rich young ruler asked what he needed to do that he should have eonian life, Jesus told him to keep the law (Matt. 19:16 -17).
Because it is impossible for anyone to keep the law due to the weakness of the flesh, Christ became flesh and kept the law in our place and died in our place. It wasn’t until after the death and resurrection of Christ that His disciples declared, “Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the pardon of your sins” (Acts 2:38). Now the righteous of God, which was required by the law, was available through faith in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:21-23).
I think the concept of “spiritual death” arises from the belief that man possesses an immortal soul. The bible teaches that God formed man from the dust of the earth, and then breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. The combination of the flesh with the spirit from God gives us our consciousness or soul. When we die the flesh returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God Who gave it (Eccl. 12:7). At resurrection God will give us a spiritual body combined with that same spirit of life (1 Cor. 15:53) and death will be swallowed up in victory. If man possessed an immortal soul already, then there would be no need for resurrection, just like when Satan told Eve she wouldn’t really die.
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Roofus
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 9/1/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
[quote]Originally posted by Roofus
I lumped these together because they speak of the same thing. It is also recorded in Mattew 12:24-32. Jesus has just cast out a demon and the people were started to think He may be the messiah. The Pharisees right away claim that Jesus casts out demons bythe power of beezeboul or Satan himself. That is where Jesus says they are blaspheming the spirit of God (of which He is castign out demons) and that this would not be forgiven in this aion nor in the aion to come(verse 32). If aion meant forever, how could there be a forever to come? Instead Jesus declares that this sin will not be forgiven during this current age nor in the age to come (the millennial reign of Christ).
It could mean forever if the age to come is an age without end, right?
[/quote]
But the age to come (the millennail reign of Christ) does come to an end! It will last a thousand years. At its conclusion, the heavens and earth as we know them today will be destroyed by fire. God will then create a new neavens and new earth. Also we see that the white throne judgment is between this two last ages or eons.
Thanks for the reply. I will think that over. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/2/2004 2:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Ezek. 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
Jee: So we can assume that you believe physically dead people can repent?
My 2c...
I believe that this passage speaks of physical life or death, because of the reference to a righteous man dying, yet he is still called a righteous man, though his deeds do not deliver him when he sins.
quote:
Lock: The combination of the flesh with the spirit from God gives us our consciousness or soul. When we die the flesh returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God Who gave it (Eccl. 12:7).
But the spirit from God is our spirit, the real human person, which can leave the body (2 Cor. 12:2), and can suffer the "second death," which I think does refer primarily to spiritual death. The spirit does return to God, but that doesn't imply a good outcome, necessarily!
Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But I do believe there are verses that give reason to hope that people can repent after death:
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Ezekiel 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom ...
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/3/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jee,
quote:
Ezek. 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
Lee: I believe that this passage speaks of physical life or death, because of the reference to a righteous man dying, yet he is still called a righteous man, though his deeds do not deliver him when he sins.
Jee: If that is the true sense of the passage, then we must believe that those who live righteously will never die physically.
No, I think this refers to an early death:
Psalm 102:24 So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days..."
quote:
What kind of death do you guys think Paul was referring to in Romans 8:1-14?
Physical death, again, I would say, a judgment for "a sin that leads to death" (1 Jn. 5:16, see also 1 Cor. 11:29-32).
Blessings,
Lee
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 6:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
What kind of death do you guys think Paul was referring to in Romans 8:1-14?
Physical death, again, I would say, a judgment for "a sin that leads to death" (1 Jn. 5:16, see also 1 Cor. 11:29-32).
Blessings,
Lee
Some problems I see with your view, Lee:
1. John expressly states in 1 John 5 that there is a sin NOT unto death, as well as a sin unto death. Therefore, physical death cannot be "the wages of sin," as Romans 6:23 says.
2. Additionally, since everbody dies physically, Paul's statement in Romans 8 makes absolutely NO sense at all, given your interpretation.
(Paul says, "If you live after the flesh, you shall DIE." The Romans read this and say, "Yeah, so? Doesn't everybody die?"
3. While it is certainly true that God in some cases chooses to execute someone (like Ananias & Sapphira, for example), the scarce occurence of this, even in the accounts related in the Scriptures, would seem to argue against the idea that the death spoken of in Romans 8 is of a physical nature.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/3/2004 6:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
2. Additionally, since everbody dies physically, Paul's statement in Romans 8 makes absolutely NO sense at all, given your interpretation.
(Paul says, "If you live after the flesh, you shall DIE." The Romans read this and say, "Yeah, so? Doesn't everybody die?"
JEE-
Moses wrote that if a man can keep the law then he will live by it (Rom. 10:5). That spoke of eonian life. You have to look at from the view of an Israelite. An Israelite's hope was to be a part of the kingdom age of the Messiah. The Saddusees believed that this was a one time shot, just during our lifetime. If Israel didn't fulfill their part of God's covenant during your lifetime thus ushering in the kingdom, then too bad! They did not see, along with David and Daniel, that God would ressurrect His elect so that they may enjoy their allotment of the kingdom. So you ask what life and death does this speak of? Life during the kingdom age of the messiah and the age that follows. You are correct to assume that the death is the second death of Rev. 20:14, but that does not make it a spiritual death. Those who suffer the second death will be raised from the dead for judgment but they will not be vivfied, thus the second death will be a physical death and they will be in a state of unconsciousness until the consummation of the eons.
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Roofus
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 9/4/2004 5:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
[quote]Originally posted by Roofus
I lumped these together because they speak of the same thing. It is also recorded in Mattew 12:24-32. Jesus has just cast out a demon and the people were started to think He may be the messiah. The Pharisees right away claim that Jesus casts out demons bythe power of beezeboul or Satan himself. That is where Jesus says they are blaspheming the spirit of God (of which He is castign out demons) and that this would not be forgiven in this aion nor in the aion to come(verse 32). If aion meant forever, how could there be a forever to come? Instead Jesus declares that this sin will not be forgiven during this current age nor in the age to come (the millennial reign of Christ).
It could mean forever if the age to come is an age without end, right?
[/quote]
But the age to come (the millennail reign of Christ) does come to an end! It will last a thousand years. At its conclusion, the heavens and earth as we know them today will be destroyed by fire. God will then create a new neavens and new earth. Also we see that the white throne judgment is between this two last ages or eons.
If all will be saved, why bother evangelizing? | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/4/2004 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jee,
quote:
1. John expressly states in 1 John 5 that there is a sin NOT unto death, as well as a sin unto death. Therefore, physical death cannot be "the wages of sin," as Romans 6:23 says.
It can be both! But not every sin carries an immediate death penalty. Some sins do, though.
quote:
Additionally, since everbody dies physically, Paul's statement in Romans 8 makes absolutely NO sense at all, given your interpretation.
Dying while serving God is different than dying in rebellion or because of selfishness, though.
People can die in different ways, just like they can live in different ways!
1 Timothy 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
And I think the mention of Ananias and Sapphira is appropriate here, everyone was afraid when they heard this, yet we are told not to fear death, if we are walking with God.
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/5/2004 1:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If all will be saved, why bother evangelizing?
Roofus-
Paul wrote that we should work to reclaim the current evil era (Eph 5:16, Col. 4:5). I look at it this way; There are two groups. One group will come to the realization of God's salvation through Jesus Christ during this era. These are those who will be resurrected and vivified when Jesus returns in glory. Once a person is vivified, they are immortal. God brings people to this realization through those who are evangelizing. The second group (unbelievers, those not a part of the elect) will not be raised up until the millennial age ends. They will stand before the white throne and recieve judgment according to their acts. They then will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death. At the consummation of the eons, this second group will be resurrected from the second death and vivified.
I, for one, would prefer to be a part of group number one, because not only do they avoid the white throne judgment (where there will be plenty of weeping and gnashing of teeth) but they also miss out on a part in the 2 glorious eons to come. I would also love to see as many of my family and friends as possible in Christ's presence at His return, so there is motivation to spread the good news.
Phil. 2:13 "For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well to work for the sake of His delight."
If God wants to spread His message of salvation through you, He will get it done!
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Roofus
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 9/16/2004 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
How do you read Hebrews 6 (impossible to renew......)? When I was studying universalism, that was was of the biggest problems that I found with it.
roofy | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/16/2004 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
If God wants to spread His message of salvation through you, He will get it done!
Exactly! Just like if He wants to clear the promised land of Amorites, He'll use Israel and get it done!
Er, wait a minute....
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/16/2004 6:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Did God give Himself a deadline?
Is Joshua still alive?
If all prophecies will be fulfilled when the world ends:
"Whoa unto you, Des Moines, for you shall be no more."
I'm a prophet.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/16/2004 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Roofus
Lock,
How do you read Hebrews 6 (impossible to renew......)? When I was studying universalism, that was was of the biggest problems that I found with it.
roofy
Roofus,
I think it is necessary to see the 2 evangels. Peter was entrusted with the evangel of the Circumscision (Gal. 2:8). This evangel mainly deals with Israel and the covenant they have with God. When John and Jesus declared, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" I believe they spoke of the kingdom of priests (Ex. 19:6) which also is the kingdom of the messiah (Dan. 2:44). This kingdom will be on earth (Rev. 5:10) when Jesus returns in glory. In order to enter the kingdom, one needs to be born again (John 3:3 also see Jer. 31:31-33). Only when one is born again are they able to keep (through the spirit of God) the requirements of the Law (God's covenant with Israel). That is why the believing Jews in the time of Acts still kept the Law. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fufill it. That is why James wrote to the dispersed of Israel that faith without works is dead.
Paul was entrusted the evangel of the Uncircumscision (Gal. 2:7). During the Acts period the gentiles were brought in to provoke Israel to jealousy (Rom.10:19). Tension was created when certain jewish leaders thought that the gentile believers needed to be circumcised and follow the law as well. That is why Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem (Acts 15). The counsel of Jerusalem decided not to trouble the gentiles, but did ask thatthey abstain from from pollutions of idols, fornication, and meats with blood (Acts 15:19-20). When Paul wrote to the gentile believers, he did speak of being born again, but he went beyond that and spoke of believers being a new creation. Paul speaks of the body of Christ. Paul speaks of justification through faith alone (where many people claim there is a contraction with James).
Hebrews 6 is written to the dispersed of Israel. Hebrews is relative to the evangel of the kingdom. It is possible for one to lose their place in the kingdom. I believe that the fires of Gehenna will burn the bodies of those who lose their place in the kingdom, due to their transgressions (Isa. 66:23-24). We see that people have their names blotted out of the book of life (which I believe pertains to the kingdom and Israel). It became apparent that Jesus' return would be delayed and the writer of Hebrews wrote to the believers among the dispersion, encouraging them to not fall back towards perdition, but ahead to maturity. I believe that this is relative to Israel and the kingdom of the Messiah, which is the hope of all Israel; to have an allotment in this kingdom. I believe that this kingdom is the 1000 year reign of Christ spoken of in Rev. 20.
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