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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/5/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone,
Here are some thoughts about whether all may be saved...
If God has a purpose to save all men (2 Pt. 3:9; Lk 19:10; Jn. 3:17; 1 Jn. 4:14), and if God's purposes are always accomplished (Job 42:2; Pr. 16:4; Pr. 21:30; Isa. 14:27; Jer. 1:12; Eph. 1:11), then we may hope that God will accomplish his purpose to save all men.
If God has a desire for all men to repent (Eze. 18:23; Eze. 33:11; Lk. 15:6-10,23-24; 1 Tim. 2:4), and if all of God's desires will be fulfilled (Ps. 115:3; Ps. 135:6; Isa. 46:10), then we may hope God's desire for all men to repent will not be frustrated.
If God could not choose a way to have all of his desires fulfilled, then he must be said to experience some measure of frustration, and he must also have had to compromise, when he made the world. Also, if God knew all of his desires would not be met before he created the world, how did God create this world freely? If God had to choose against some of his desires, was not the choice of this particular world forced, in some of its aspects?
If God commands all men to repent (Isa. 45:22; Eze. 18:32; Acts 17:30; Acts 26:20), and if part of the purpose of God giving the command is to have that command obeyed (Dt. 4:5; 5:33; Ex. 18:30,32; Rom. 16:26), then his word must accomplish its purpose (Isa. 55:11).
If all the law will be fulfilled (Mt. 5:18), and if the law is fulfilled by people becoming more obedient (Rom. 3:31; Rom. 8:4), then for the law to be completely fulfilled, then people must all become obedient.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
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| Posted 8/6/2004 2:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
if all of God's desires will be fulfilled
1 Samuel 8:
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;
5 and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."
6 But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
8 "Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.
1 Samuel 10
19 "But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, 'No, but set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans."
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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/7/2004 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Ross,
Thanks for the pointer! I have read some of Tom Talbott's writings, and he does have some strong points (some of which I mentioned in the first post), and some not so strong, I think.
It seems that the discussion in the link from this forum focused on the classic verses, which I usually try to avoid, since that ground is well-trodden, it usually winds up with "all-means-some!" "no, all-means-all!" But I can't use my usual points here! So I can try and address some of the Scriptures...
Verses that give hope:
MT 19:25-26 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
All people may be saved is possible? I think this verse says yes.
ISA 45:22-25 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, 'In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.' " All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. But in the Lord all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
Here is the corollary to Phil. 2:10, and this is a command to be saved! Not a request. And "put to shame" is not incompatible with salvation:
Ezekiel 16:63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.
And the Philippians passage is not about the victory of the sword, but the victory of the cross.
LA 3:31-32 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love.
Here's a Tom Talbott point:
MT 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
Can we not say that God loves everyone, from this command? Wants their best, I mean? Doesn't the love for our enemies come from him, even? And "love never fails" (1 Cor. 13:8).
And one more verse:
JN 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
Not "who trys to take it away."
I'll stop here!
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lee,
I looked at those verses you claimed indicated that the non-elects' suffering was related to some post-ressurection good. I couldn't see anything like that from the contexts. I don't even see any scripture that says the pre-conversion sufferings of the ELECT have any post-ressurection value.
You said, also, that a soldier dying in the "war" was a futile loss in the OV position. That's not true. Sufferings for Christ and for righteousness sake will be rewarded in the ressurection. You said that the OV requires that God minimize evil. I don't believe that God necessarily minimizes evil; nor does such a belief follow from a minimal definition of the OV.
You also asked for a verse that says a suffering had no good purpose. I'll try to think of one outside of the equivocal Galatians verse, but I would note, for now, that it is the intuitively default position that we need evidence FOR a suffering's post-ressurection purpose - not the other way around.
Jefscott,
Eccl. 1:13 states that God uses evil to humble mankind
Romans 11:32 states that God locks ALL up in stubborness, so that He can be merciful to ALL.
ALL of mankind is God's creation. God is in the process of forming mankind into His image, and the final product is in Christ. When you speak of elect and non-elect you are speaking of "aionion" life, which is life during the glorious eons of the eons; the millennial kingdom of Christ and the new heavens and new earth, not mankind's ETERNAL destiny. After these two glorious eons we have the consummation of 1 Cor. 15. My point is that all is of God and He will use all to form His clay (ALL MANKIND) into His likeness and image which we see in Christ, His annoited. Just as ALL die in Adam, ALL will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22)
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/8/2004 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Eccl. 1:13 states that God uses evil to humble mankind
Ecclesiates 1:13
And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
lock, I can see why, instead of quoting ecclesiates 1:13, you just really, really, really, really, really paraphrased it. It doesn't say what you really, really, really, really, really paraphrased.
Solomon is just saying that exploring wisdom is a difficult task. Point out the word "evil" in that passage.
Or do you believe "grieving" is evil? Do you laugh at funerals?
James 1:17
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Eccl. 1:13 states that God uses evil to humble mankind
Ecclesiates 1:13
And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
lock, I can see why, instead of quoting ecclesiates 1:13, you just really, really, really, really, really paraphrased it. It doesn't say what you really, really, really, really, really paraphrased.
Solomon is just saying that exploring wisdom is a difficult task. Point out the word "evil" in that passage.
Or do you believe "grieving" is evil? Do you laugh at funerals?
James 1:17
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
SOC- It is always best to go to the original language. I will reference the English word from the KJV because that is easiest to reference to My Strong's and Young's concordances.
The Hebrew word translated "sore travail" or as you quoted "grievous task" is ra. It is almost always translated evil. Even in Eccl. it is translated evil 12 out of 14 times as oppossed to the 2 times here in 1:13 and 4:8 where the KJ translators and the edition you quoted, choose to translate it differently.
The Hebrew word for "exercised therewith" or as you quoted "afflicted with" is anah. "Afflicted with" is a good translation but it lacks the idea of affliction towards being humbled. Anah is used in Deut. 8:15-16 (KJV)
"Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there is no water; Who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint; Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that He might humble thee, and that He might prove thee, to thee good in the latter end."
Like I said above, it is best to to check the original language. My bible has the KJV but it makes corrections in the margin (such as is needed in Eccl. 1:13 to keep a consistent translation for the Hebrew word ra).
Yes, I do grieve at funerals and no, I try not to laugh at them. I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently and thanks for checking up on me.
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/8/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
SOC- It is always best to go to the original language. I will reference the English word from the KJV because that is easiest to reference to My Strong's and Young's concordances.
The Hebrew word translated "sore travail" or as you quoted "grievous task" is ra. It is almost always translated evil.
Except the Hebrew experts who translated the bible into English didn't use "evil" here, did they?
I'll trust the large team of Hebrew-English experts that translated this rather than you.
I'm sure if they had ascertained that "ra" meant "evil" here, they would have used "evil" here.
What's "evil" about seeking and exploring wisdom?
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 8/8/2004 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | lock:Like I said above, it is best to to check the original language.
Except you're using how they translated a word in another passage to override how they translated the word in this passage.
If a word has different translations, and they use the different translations in different passages, it is disengenuous to override one translation with that from another passage.
What are your Hebrew->English translation credentials?
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 5:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Jefscott,
quote:
Eccl. 1:13 states that God uses evil to humble mankind
The question I was asking Lee is whether there is a verse that shows that all suffering of the non-elect will have some good purpose in their supposed ressurection. As I said, I don't even know of any verse that would indicate that the elects' pre-conversion sufferings have any post-ressurection signifance of value.
Paul says that bodily exercise profiteth in this life, whereas godliness profits in this life AND the coming life. I would take that to indicate that sufferings like being beat up by a thug have no profit in the life to come (unless the suffering is for righteousness sake). Their simply tragic.
Jefsott-
I can see what your are saying, but I look at Romans 8:28, "Now we are aware that God is working ALL together for the good of those who are loving God" and I see God using ALL (which would include evil)for the good of the elect. As far as the non-elect I read Romans 11:36, "out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL" and think that if the non-elect (which would be included in the ALL) is for God then He must use their suffering as well for some purpose, but besides in Eccl., I have yet to find a passage that clearly states it as I assume you are requesting fro Lee.
God may even use evil and suffering to keep them from believing and thus take them through His judgements only to show them supreme mercy at the consummation. I can see the purpose in rolling my ankle while playing basketball, because it humbles my old, feeble flesh !
Lock
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
lock:Like I said above, it is best to to check the original language.
Except you're using how they translated a word in another passage to override how they translated the word in this passage.
If a word has different translations, and they use the different translations in different passages, it is disengenuous to override one translation with that from another passage.
What are your Hebrew->English translation credentials?
My credentials are that I have a bible, concordances, and time. The advantage I have over some of these Hebrew/English experts is that I am not persuaded by theology when translating. William Bullinger (the Companion Bible, a Hebrew and Greek expert) felt a more consistent translation was needed. The expert team of translators at the Concordant trust also translate ra more consistently and you can look at their website to see their credentails and process of translation. Ra is translated evil more then 200 times in the Old Testament. Just becasue a group of experts decide to change it in these 2 passages doesn't make it right. As far as using the other passages, the bible is the best tool to use when translating a word consistently.
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 8/9/2004 1:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
lock:Like I said above, it is best to to check the original language.
Except you're using how they translated a word in another passage to override how they translated the word in this passage.
If a word has different translations, and they use the different translations in different passages, it is disengenuous to override one translation with that from another passage.
What are your Hebrew->English translation credentials?
My credentials are that I have a bible, concordances, and time.
What's evil about seeking and exploring wisdom?
Ecclesiates 1:13
And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
Because God commands us to seek wisdom, it isn't an evil task. Hence the experts didn't translate it as evil.
If you're going to build a case that God is evil, you're going to need better evidence.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 8/9/2004 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Ecclesiastes 1:
NIV
13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men!
NASB
13 And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
KJV
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
ESV
13 And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven. It is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with.
ASV
13 And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven: it is a sore travail that God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.
MSG
13 I looked most carefully into everything, searched out all that is done on this earth. And let me tell you, there's not much to write home about. God hasn't made it easy for us.
AMP
13 And I applied myself by heart and mind to seek and search out by [human] wisdom all human activity under heaven. It is a miserable business which God has given to the sons of man with which to busy themselves.
NLT
13 I devoted myself to search for understanding and to explore by wisdom everything being done in the world. I soon discovered that God has dealt a tragic existence to the human race.
NLV
13 And I set my mind to look for wisdom to learn about all that has been done under heaven. It is a hard work which God has given to the sons of men to be troubled with.
CEV
13 With all my wisdom I tried to understand everything that happens here on earth. And God has made this so hard for us humans to do.
NKJV
13 And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.
YLT
13 And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It [is] a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.
DARBY
13 And I applied my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: this grievous occupation hath God given to the children of men to weary themselves therewith.
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Similitude
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| Posted 8/9/2004 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
quote:
Jefsott-
I can see what your are saying, but I look at Romans 8:28, "Now we are aware that God is working ALL together for the good of those who are loving God" and I see God using ALL (which would include evil)for the good of the elect. As far as the non-elect I read Romans 11:36, "out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL" and think that if the non-elect (which would be included in the ALL) is for God then He must use their suffering as well for some purpose, but besides in Eccl., I have yet to find a passage that clearly states it as I assume you are requesting fro Lee.
God may even use evil and suffering to keep them from believing and thus take them through His judgements only to show them supreme mercy at the consummation. I can see the purpose in rolling my ankle while playing basketball, because it humbles my old, feeble flesh!
"For those who are loving God" is the key. And I've already agreed that some suffering, like bodily exercise, profits in THIS life. Lee's point has not been established. From the OV, it need not be established. From his Calvinistic point of view, it is problematic.
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lock
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| Posted 8/9/2004 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
lock:Like I said above, it is best to to check the original language.
Except you're using how they translated a word in another passage to override how they translated the word in this passage.
If a word has different translations, and they use the different translations in different passages, it is disengenuous to override one translation with that from another passage.
What are your Hebrew->English translation credentials?
My credentials are that I have a bible, concordances, and time.
What's evil about seeking and exploring wisdom?
Ecclesiates 1:13
And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
Because God commands us to seek wisdom, it isn't an evil task. Hence the experts didn't translate it as evil.
If you're going to build a case that God is evil, you're going to need better evidence.
My case is not that God is evil. My case is that God is above all and in control of all. The "evil" or "grievous" task that God gives to mankind to humble them is not seeking out wisdom. Verse 13 begins with the writer saying that he set his heart to seek and search out wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven. Verse 14 states that the writer has seen all the works that are done under the sun and behold , all is vanity and vexation of spirit. In verse 3 the writer asks, "What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?" The labour that is done "under heaven" and "under the sun" refers to all that is connected with earthly things as such, and with man apart from God (Companion Bible note on verse 3). It is this labour which God gives to mankind to humble them. If you feel that it is better to translate it as a "grievous" task that God gives mankind to humble them, it still fits the structure. I feel that anything apart from God, especially that which is done in the flesh alone, is evil, and in the long run grievous and as the writer infers by calling it vanity, it will soon vanish. Even though it is vanity, God can use it to complete His purpose for mankind.
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 8/9/2004 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
My case is not that God is evil. My case is that God is above all and in control of all. The "evil" or "grievous" task that God gives to mankind to humble them is not seeking out wisdom.
It's the seeking and exploring of wisdom that Solomon found grievous, burdensome. Not "not seeking out wisdom". You got that backwards as well.
If I commit evil, am I evil?
If Satan commits evil, is he evil?
If God commits evil, is He evil?
Maybe if you could find a translation that has Eccl. 1:13 saying that the "seeking and exploration of wisdom" is evil AND explain why exploring wisdom is evil when God commands us throughout scripture to explore wisdom. Then you might have a case.
Proverbs 4:
5 Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding!
Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.
6 "Do not forsake her, and she will guard you;
Love her, and she will watch over you.
7 "The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom;
And with all your acquiring, get understanding.
8 "Prize her, and she will exalt you;
She will honor you if you embrace her.
9 "She will place on your head a garland of grace;
She will present you with a crown of beauty."
10 Hear, my son, and accept my sayings
And the years of your life will be many.
11 I have directed you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in upright paths.
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lock
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| Posted 8/9/2004 8:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
My case is not that God is evil. My case is that God is above all and in control of all. The "evil" or "grievous" task that God gives to mankind to humble them is not seeking out wisdom.
It's the seeking and exploring of wisdom that Solomon found grievous, burdensome. Not "not seeking wisdom". You got that backwards as well.
If I commit evil, am I evil?
If Satan commits evil, is he evil?
If God commits evil, is He evil?
Maybe if you could find a translation that has Eccl. 1:13 saying that the "seeking and exploration of wisdom" is evil AND explain why exploring wisdom is evil when God commands us throughout scripture to explore wisdom. Then you might have a case.
Proverbs 4:
5 Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding!
Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.
6 "Do not forsake her, and she will guard you;
Love her, and she will watch over you.
7 "The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom;
And with all your acquiring, get understanding.
8 "Prize her, and she will exalt you;
She will honor you if you embrace her.
9 "She will place on your head a garland of grace;
She will present you with a crown of beauty."
10 Hear, my son, and accept my sayings
And the years of your life will be many.
11 I have directed you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in upright paths.
It is man's labour here on earth (under heaven and under the sun) that is the grievous or evil task God gives mankind to humble them. The first half of verse 13 speaks of Solomon and his seeking, the second half speaks of mankind and his labour under the sun which is vanity. Please FULLY read my last post.
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 8/9/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
It is man's labour here on earth (under heaven and under the sun) that is the grievous or evil task God gives mankind to humble them.
Man's labour here on earth is not evil.
We're commanded to labor:
Exodus 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work"
If we're not willing to work, we shouldn't eat:
2 Thessalonians 3:
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.
10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.
13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.
Verse 13, this disciplined life of labor is described by Paul as "doing good".
So build a case that labor is evil. But post the scripture, don't just rewrite it in your own words.
If you think labor is evil, was God committing evil when He labored for the six days of creation?
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lock
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| Posted 8/9/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
It is man's labour here on earth (under heaven and under the sun) that is the grievous or evil task God gives mankind to humble them.
Man's labour here on earth is not evil.
We're commanded to labor:
Exodus 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work"
If we're not willing to work, we shouldn't eat:
2 Thessalonians 3:
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.
10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.
13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.
Verse 13, this disciplined life of labor is described by Paul as "doing good".
So build a case that labor is evil. But post the scripture, don't just rewrite it in your own words.
If you think labor is evil, was God committing evil when He labored for the six days of creation?
Labour apart from God is evil and vanity.
Eccl. 4:8 "The is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother, yet there is no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, 'for whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good?' This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore (ra) travail."
Eccl. 3:10 "I have seen the "travail", which God hath given to the son's of men to be exercised in it."
Both passages speak of the labour of mankind being the "ra" task God gives to mankind to humble him with. The labour of man under heaven and under the sun which is apart from God is earthy and fleshy and therefore evil in God's eyes becasue our righteousness is as filthy rags.
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