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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/8/2004 6:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
What might help answer your question is seeing the differences between the 2 evangels in Galatians 2:7-10. The evangel to the Circumcision (Which John the Baptist and Jesus (Rom. 15:8) started, and then in Acts was entrusted to Peter) is different then the evangel to the Uncircumcision which was given to Paul.
I am sorry but I am a bit dense so I am not sure what you are saying. Could you explain it again for me? I'd appreciate it.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/8/2004 7:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid: ( ). You convinced me to share a little of what I am struggling with. Some say the Trinity is not required, others say it is, BUT it seems to me that part of our salvation is to know God (I am talking about the general way of salvation, those who have access to a Bible, can talk to others about God, etc. not the exception to the rule, such as those who have never heard of God, or are ignorant of the scriptures, which is a different subject).
Now John made the statement that to get our theology correct is a lifelong process, and I would agree to an extent. However, I view knowing God like knowing my wife: I may not know everything about her but I do know WHO she is.
Also John made the statement that we should know who the God of scriptures is, yet he seemed very hesitant to identify who, exactly, that person is.
It would seem that to know who God is, in some fashion, is important to salvation, because it seems very important to Jesus. However, I do not see much profit for me in this thread because I don't believe the answer is here for me. However, I don't mind if you guys take it over and go whereever you want with it. I may hang around or I may not.
I wonder though: if we, as Christians, cannot articulate in some concrete way who God is exactly, then I do truly wonder one of two things: either God has not revealed himself to us enough to get an actual vision of him to tell people about and two, God really doesn't matter that much in the course of salvation. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/8/2004 9:47 PM (GMT -6) | | To reiterate, I think that all that is necessary for salvation is to know that we have rejected love, know that God offers love, and accept that love. From God's point of view He knows we screwed up, but He loves us anyway. I think that's the minimum about God that we need to believe in for salvation. I don't think proper understanding of the Trinity is needed. Did Abraham believe in the Trinity? Probably not. At least not the way we believe in the Trinity. But He had faith. His faith demonstrated his belief that God loved him. He had faith in God, because God is deserving of our faith.
lock, this is dispensationalism, right? As opposed to many forms of dispensationalism, yours makes sense to me so far. To me there's two levels of making sense. The first is: is it not self-contradictory or obviously in contradiction with experience? What you've said so far passes that test, I think. The second level is: does it make the most sense given all the other alternatives? This is where I don't think I'll go with you. I'll think about what you've said and see what I think.
My "crisis of faith" looks pretty lame on the outside. I wasn't in a car accident and no one close to me died or anything. I was a Southern Baptist (still am to my embarrassment), and I was taking a class in the fall of 2002 called fundamentals of philosophy, but the class was mostly about religion. We read The Openness of God and talked a lot about Ex 32:14 and 1Sam 15:29. The book wasn't very good IMO, but it, along with the scripture, got me thinking about whether God knew the future. I thought if God didn't know the future, He wasn't much of a God, and if He did, why did He make the world so messed up? He knew we would sin; in fact He made us that way. At the same time one of my closest friends, who was a missionary kid and had renounced his faith, gave me The Jesus Mystery or something (I'm not sure that's the name of the book). Basically, a lot of what I took for granted about God was being challenged by people who made a lot of sense. I decided that I believed open theism, but not the way the book described it, but that wasn't as big a deal as the idea that the gospels got it wrong. I prayed and said, "I really don't know what to believe except that you're there because I can feel you there. I want the truth even if it's painful. I don't want to believe a lie. Please show me how you really are, because the way you've been described doesn't make sense." That was one of the most courageous moments of my life, I think. It's scary to open a door that could have anything behind it. I knew that some people were ostracized by their friends and family when they became Christians. Would something like that happen to me? I don't know how I came to the verses, but I found the opening verses of Luke. I related with him. He was just looking for the truth, and this is what he found. The people Luke got his info from were witnesses. They lived and died not for what they heard, but what they saw with their own eyes. Either these people are nuts, evil, or telling the truth. Kind of like the liar, lunatic, Lord thing only this isn't testimony about one's self. It's the testimony of two or three others. Doc says things very clearly in Letters from a Skeptic. N. T. Wright is also very good on this topic. These guys were great encouragement. I guess the Jesus seminar stuff was the crisis, and the open theism stuff just coincided with it. But I think God could see these things coming and had a purpose for putting the two together. Maybe it was more efficient to introduce the open theism while I was broken, sort of killing two birds with one stone. Anyway I think the open theist's God does more closely resembles Jesus than any other idea that I've seen.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/9/2004 1:03 AM (GMT -6) | | | Sahid: I don't believe Abraham needed to believe in the Trinity. He was responsible for the revelation of God that was given to him, just as we are. Do you see the difference? We are responsible for what we know, just as he was. We just know a little more. If we go on the basis of salvation by what Abraham knew, then the Jews would not need Jesus, but would just need faith. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/9/2004 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
If we go on the basis of salvation by what Abraham knew, then the Jews would not need Jesus, but would just need faith.
I bet I'm not understanding you, feelinhole. Abraham, and all jews, and all people absolutely need God to assume human form, and suffer, and die, and raise, and ascend to glory, and come again. Whether they ever hear the name Jesus or not. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/9/2004 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
If we go on the basis of salvation by what Abraham knew, then the Jews would not need Jesus, but would just need faith.
I bet I'm not understanding you, feelinhole. Abraham, and all jews, and all people absolutely need God to assume human form, and suffer, and die, and raise, and ascend to glory, and come again. Whether they ever hear the name Jesus or not.
Yeah, what he said. Do you mean would not need to know about Jesus or do you mean not need Jesus at all? We need to know that God loves us. I don't think Old Testament Jews needed to know this specific way that love was manifested, although it is the important way. They still do need Jesus whether or not they know it.
It just seems to me that if Jesus is the way their can't be other ways. So, there must be some core or minimum to salvation. I'm not sure at all that I've found it, but I'm pretty sure that knowledge of the Trinity is external to it. I think the way they executed heretics back in the day was more about church unity than it was about correct doctrine or rooting out lies.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/9/2004 1:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Sahid: (). You convinced me to share a little of what I am struggling with. Some say the Trinity is not required, others say it is, BUT it seems to me that part of our salvation is to know God (I am talking about the general way of salvation, those who have access to a Bible, can talk to others about God, etc. not the exception to the rule, such as those who have never heard of God, or are ignorant of the scriptures, which is a different subject).
Now John made the statement that to get our theology correct is a lifelong process, and I would agree to an extent. However, I view knowing God like knowing my wife: I may not know everything about her but I do know WHO she is.
God is infinitely more complex and vast than any wife or husband could ever be. It is obvious that throughout all the ages the redeemed will be continuing to learn new things about their Redeemer.
quote:
Also John made the statement that we should know who the God of scriptures is, yet he seemed very hesitant to identify who, exactly, that person is.
Not hesitant at all, fih. It's just such a HUGE question that it could not be adequately covered in a few posts. Massive volumes have been written on theology over the centuries, as you know.
Your question confuses the issue by referring to God in the singular as "who, exactly, that person is." God has revealed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, "one God in three persons," which statement I affirm without hesitation or qualification.
If you want a "short version" I unequivocally affirm the definition of the Trinity as found in the Nicene creed. However, I do not see affirmation of the Nicene Creed as a New Testament condition of salvation.
quote:
It would seem that to know who God is, in some fashion, is important to salvation, because it seems very important to Jesus. However, I do not see much profit for me in this thread because I don't believe the answer is here for me. However, I don't mind if you guys take it over and go whereever you want with it. I may hang around or I may not.
I wonder though: if we, as Christians, cannot articulate in some concrete way who God is exactly, then I do truly wonder one of two things: either God has not revealed himself to us enough to get an actual vision of him to tell people about and two, God really doesn't matter that much in the course of salvation.
I think this really has to do with the basic difference between knowing ABOUT God and KNOWING God personally. When at the tender age of five I asked Jesus to come into my heart, forgive my sins, and save my soul, He did not ask me to perfectly recite the creed, nor whether I understood the doctrine of the Trinity yet. And yet I what I experienced that day is as real to me now as it ever has been.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/9/2004 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | John: the example still holds, regardless of how complex God is. We either can or cannot know WHO God is, even if we don't know all of what God's personality entails. And if you read my post correctly, I specifically made the point that we are responsible for what we know. I also said this was about people who could read the Bible, discern, etc. So I have no doubt what you said is true about being five years old and all. But that is irrelevant to what I was talking about.
Lock: as with John, my point is about those who have the completed revelation of the New Testament. This discussion would not be relevant to the Old Testament believers.
John: we do continue to learn new things about God. And that would change how we view him. But it wouldn't change WHO he is. I sincerely doubt that the God of scripture is suddenly going to become more than one, or suddenly 20 persons, who something of that nature. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/9/2004 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid: I mean Abraham had faith and it was credited to him as righteousness. And yes, he needs Jesus. But he was not responsible for a full revelation of God because he was not given it.
The Jews need Jesus just as everyone does. I am saying that if we make Abraham the text for all of us, then all we would have to do is believe, we wouldn't have to accept Jesus. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/9/2004 8:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, I think I see what you mean. I think, churched or not, educated in theology or not, the standard for salvation is knowing we need and accepting God's love. Now, I think if we are talking about theologically educated people, belief in Jesus is necessary. The Jesus of the new testament who actually was born, lived, died, rose, and ascended. I think some things follow from believing in Jesus: we believe that He loves us (because He said so) and we believe that He tells us the truth (because He says so). Jesus considered the Father God. He considered Himself God. I don't know if I could point to a verse where Jesus recognizes the Holy Spirit as God. Hold on I'll check that part in John... Ok, John 16: 13-15 might kinda hint at the divinity of the Spirit. It's harder to make a case for the Spirit.
So now that I've circled around the question... I don't think we need a sophisticated understanding of the Trinity for salvation. I think we need to believe that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and at least that the Spirit comes from God and is in harmony with God. If I looked harder I could probably find a better verse. How 'bout this: believe that all three are God and that's good enough for those with a theological education. Sorry, that was pretty messy.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/10/2004 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | | I think, generally, there needs to be some recognition of the various persons involved within the act of salvation. I would agree completely that we don't need an exact formula of who the Trinity is (just look at all the formulas the church has had to take a PEEK at who God is). It would seem to me that adnowledging their roles and who they are within our lives and what they are doing goes a long way to drawing close to God. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/10/2004 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
I think, generally, there needs to be some recognition of the various persons involved within the act of salvation. I would agree completely that we don't need an exact formula of who the Trinity is (just look at all the formulas the church has had to take a PEEK at who God is). It would seem to me that adnowledging their roles and who they are within our lives and what they are doing goes a long way to drawing close to God.
I agree with feel'n. As Jaroslav Pelekin says, the original Monotheists are the Trinitarians. Otherwise you end up with more than one God.
Another way to say what Feel'n says is to say that EVERYTHING that God does is done BY GOD, and not some demiurge.
I agree with you feel'n. | | Back to Top | | |
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