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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 8/5/2004 7:31 PM (GMT -6)

Yes? No? Why?

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 8/5/2004 7:36 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

Yes? No? Why?

Huh?

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Sahid
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Posted 8/5/2004 7:47 PM (GMT -6)

Yeah. I'll go with "Huh?" too.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Sahid
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Posted 8/5/2004 9:26 PM (GMT -6)

Jesus is God. I guess with open theism the thing is how can God hold us morally responsible for what we could not help but do? This would make God/Jesus unjust and evil or at best stupid. If we believe that Jesus is evil, why would we believe He would save us?

If we believe in Jesus, we believe the same things about God. It matters a great deal what we believe about God, because that is what we believe about Jesus. When we think Jesus is not God, we stop believing the very first Christian confession, "Jesus is Lord."

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 8/6/2004 3:09 AM (GMT -6)

I don't believe that this is a question personally interesting or close to the heart for feelinhole.

And I don't think it makes sense to take just any definition of "Believe on the name of the Lord." and run with it.

Names and naming are trifles in our society now: "The American Kennel Club Champion Formerly Known As 'Pooch."

But when God says "I have called you by NAME" that means something. When Scipture says "I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it" (Revelation 2:17) -- THAT is outside the grasp of consumer America.

For a taste of the importance of names, see also: Isaiah 4:1-2, Isaiah 48:1-2, 2 Chronicles 14:10-12, Deuteronomy 28:9-11, Genesis 17:4-6, Genesis 35:9-11, Isaiah 48:1-2,

I called on your name, O LORD ,
from the depths of the pit.

You heard my plea:

This is JESUS NAME we are using in print.

Hadn't we better venerate it, and not turn it into something silly and egotistical! Scripture tells us not to use the NAME of the Lord in vain.

Lets obey.

PotOnWheel
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Posted 8/6/2004 5:19 AM (GMT -6)

Feel'n, thanks for the explanation.

That WAS addressed generally.

I think that the matter is ONLY ours to decide as it pertains to us.

The Canons of Dort make clear at least two things: First, that we should NEVER presume negatively or possitively about the salvation of other people. And, second, that we should never dispair about our own possible salvation.

Good advice.

Further, Orthodox patriarchs have pointed out that salvation is a work of God in the heart, and that we must not presume to define the limits of where God can work.

Harold, there is no human-manipulatable line or impliment. Its a work of the Spirit.

Reformation heritage gives us the notion that it is ideas (Gnostic influence throught the Islamites who invaded Spain; replacing person with book.) that matter ultimately.

It is RELATIONSHIP that "matters."

(BTW, Harold, I had you blocked for a while too: when your posts had nothing to do with the content of the thread.)

sometimesisquint
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91

Posted 8/6/2004 7:16 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

A side note: POW, since our last confrontation I have blocked you and am no longer reading you.

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

(BTW, Harold, I had you blocked for a while too: when your posts had nothing to do with the content of the thread.)

COOL! A block party! Dead

(Where's a popular version of the "wah-wah-WAAAAHHHHHHHH"--or rim shot--when you need it?)

"What's partner yoga?"

"It's when you're two with the universe."

-My Friend Keith

---

When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain.

sometimesisquint
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91

Posted 8/6/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

Keith, while you may make light of it, I do not. I have never blocked anyone before, but sadly, there comes a time...

First, my name's Mike (or "sometimesisquint" if you're "slightly more daring"), my friend's name is keith...as the signature-quip describes.

Second, I truly meant no offense, just trying to lighten the mood in here on a Friday. All apologies.

Bandit

"What's partner yoga?"

"It's when you're two with the universe."

-My Friend Keith

---

When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain.

Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013

Posted 8/6/2004 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

I think there are some basics we need to believe about God. He loves us. He knows we screw up. If we repent and let Him be the boss, He forgives us. I think that's it. If we truly believe these things and do repent and let Him be boss, I think we are saved. If we believe that God hates us or is oblivious to our sin or is not forgiving, then I think our salvation is seriously in question. If we truly believe something, it will be manifest in our lives. Lip service without depth is not true belief.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715

Posted 8/6/2004 10:31 AM (GMT -6)

I think we should (quite obviously) look to the New Testament to see what the conditions of salvation are.

The basics of the Gospel message include John 3:16, which specifically refers to God's love for the world and his giving of his only begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life."

The Gospel message certainly has objective truths to it (primarily about Jesus' life, death, burial, and resurrection) that must be believed.

However, if I get fih's drift, he's trying to bring up the issue of whether or not orthodox belief in the doctrine of the trinity is necessary for a person to be saved.

feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 8/6/2004 12:21 PM (GMT -6)

Mike, sorry, about the name...I see the lightness and I do apologize for not soaking it up Cool

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 8/6/2004 12:32 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

My point is to determine if we need to believe anything about God to be saved, can we believe wrong things about God and be saved, can we believe wrong things about Jesus and be saved.

When you first were born again, did you instantly receive perfect theology?

quote:
I am trying to determine where the line of salvation is, I guess.

We must look to the New Testament for light on "where the line of salvation is."

lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 8/6/2004 7:20 PM (GMT -6)

[quote]Originally posted by John Earp

Harold,

In quoting the Christian Scriptures that I did, I assume that we are talking about the God who is revealed in those Scriptures.

John
[/quote]

There are many who look at the christian scriptures and do not see a triune God.

Lock

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 8/6/2004 7:31 PM (GMT -6)

I hear many of those speaking on christian talk radio who say you must believe in the triune God in order to be saved. They also claim that in order for Jesus to have died for our sins He has to be God, even though this statement cannot be found in the scriptures. Feelin- You bring up a good subject because evangelicals always speak of Jesus and rarely speak of God. I do not know what the consensus is on once saved, always saved; but 2 Timothy 2:13 states "if we are disbelieving, He is remaining faithful-He cannot disown Himself!" If you believe that Jesus died for you on the cross and was raised from the dead and is at the right hand of God (1 Cor. 15), then you beleive the evangel. Is that enough? (1 Cor. 3:15).

Lock

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 8/6/2004 7:36 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

BTW, there are many out there who read the scriptures and believe that they point to Satan winning in the end...

If a person believes in eternal torment in hell for unbelievers, and a majority of the world's population throughout the past just under 6 thousand years have been unbelievers, then would not the above statement be true because more are going to hell then heaven? I am sorry about the triune thing, I was only related it to your question and what speakers say on christain radio related to salvation.

Lock

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 8/6/2004 7:44 PM (GMT -6)

Okay, let me take another stab at this--"If Jesus saves, does God matter?"

As Jesus IS God, the question seems really odd to me. (No offense Harold).

Further, as Jesus said, "if you've seen me you've seen the Father," and "I and my Father are one," and "if anyone believes in me, My Father and I will come and make our abode with him," it simply makes no sense at all to try to separate one's relationship with Jesus from one's relationship with God.

As far as getting our theology correct (our beliefs about God), it seems to me that that, by definition, is something that is a lifelong process.

Jesus expressed how we can come to Him so beautifully:

Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

If you know Jesus Christ personally, it is only because, as Jesus says, the Father has "revealed" it to you. Knowing Jesus is impossible without knowing the Father (in the biblical sense of knowing Him--the intimate personal experience of the new birth)

feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 8/6/2004 8:06 PM (GMT -6)

I withdraw the question. Too much work. Have a nice day. Approve

And a-sorry for the energy spent. Goodbye...be at peace, preach Jesus and all that...smoke 'em if you got them Bandit

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 8/6/2004 8:09 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

[quote]Originally posted by John Earp

Harold,

In quoting the Christian Scriptures that I did, I assume that we are talking about the God who is revealed in those Scriptures.

John
[/quote]

There are many who look at the christian scriptures and do not see a triune God.

Lock

True. So?

Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 8/6/2004 9:29 PM (GMT -6)

Feelinahole, come back! I really liked your question and was trying to contribute. I want to know what you think. I know that my answer was bare bones, but I not sure we need to add much more. If you do tell me why. This issue is a big one. The problem of evil and the problem of the unevangelized are probably the two biggest IMHO issues that Christians need to deal with in order for Christianity to make sense. I think this topic is very closely related to the unevangelized problem. I'm open to hearing what you think. Very open.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 8/7/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Feelinahole, come back! I really liked your question and was trying to contribute. I want to know what you think.

I agree. I think you ask a legitimate question. I have been thinking about what you asked. Here's a question I have for you.
What was the basis of being saved before Christ died on the cross?

In the New Testament we are told if we believe in Jesus we are saved but what about all those who lived prior to Jesus coming to earth? How were they saved?

I hope you will please respond. Thank you!

Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 8/7/2004 9:45 AM (GMT -6)

I think everyone who is ever saved, is saved through Jesus. God could save because it was certain that Jesus would do what was necessary for salvation. Man's part before the cross (or in places where the gospel is unknown) is simply to confess that we have screwed up, but to accept God's love which is there for us anyway and to choose His loving rule over our own. I think this is the gospel and it is reality just without the names, places, and history.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 8/7/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Man's part before the cross (or in places where the gospel is unknown) is simply to confess that we have screwed up, but to accept God's love which is there for us anyway and to choose His loving rule over our own. I think this is the gospel and it is reality just without the names, places, and history.

Yes! I think you are correct. King

I have often wondered what happens to those who never hear the gospel preached and I have to agree with your conclusion.

I have heard it said that the only difference in praying between the various world religions is the beginning and the ending of the prayer. We are all searching for the same thing. Interesting, eh!

Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013

Posted 8/7/2004 12:49 PM (GMT -6)

I still think the unevangelized (and the churched) can get it wrong. The crusades and jihad are examples. If your god is telling you to kill like that, I'm not sure that he is Jesus. Granted, God had the Israelites be pretty ruthless, but that's a mess I'll sidestep for now. Some eastern religions that tell you that there is no right or wrong are opposed to Christianity. If you have made peace with God without confessing sin and relying on love, you've missed it. I'd agree that in general everyone is looking for the same thing. It's love. I just don't want anyone to think I'm saying any religion is cool.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 8/8/2004 12:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I just don't want anyone to think I'm saying any religion is cool.

I agree with you that those who are killing in the name of their "god" are missing the gospel message of repenting and loving.

Here's a question for you that I have wrestled with for some time. Let's say that someone has been raised all of their life with a religion that is not based on the bible. Let's say they are preached the gospel but because of their deep roots to this religion they are reluctant to change their religious beliefs and values. I know that if someone came to me and said that Christianity is not the truth and tried to persuade me to believe their religion I would not be able to sway so how would it be different for those who have been raised with an entirely different religion? Could these people (if their hearts are genuinely to love) be accepted into heaven despite their inability to change their beliefs?

lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 8/8/2004 5:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth

quote:
I just don't want anyone to think I'm saying any religion is cool.

I agree with you that those who are killing in the name of their "god" are missing the gospel message of repenting and loving.

Here's a question for you that I have wrestled with for some time. Let's say that someone has been raised all of their life with a religion that is not based on the bible. Let's say they are preached the gospel but because of their deep roots to this religion they are reluctant to change their religious beliefs and values. I know that if someone came to me and said that Christianity is not the truth and tried to persuade me to believe their religion I would not be able to sway so how would it be different for those who have been raised with an entirely different religion? Could these people (if their hearts are genuinely to love) be accepted into heaven despite their inability to change their beliefs?

John 14:6; Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father (or God) except through Me."

1 Timothy 2:5-6; "For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Jesus Christ"

Why are they unable to change their beliefs?

Romans 11:32; "For God locks up ALL in stubbornness, that He may be merciful to ALL."

What might help answer your question is seeing the differences between the 2 evangels in Galatians 2:7-10. The evangel to the Circumcision (Which John the Baptist and Jesus (Rom. 15:8) started, and then in Acts was entrusted to Peter) is different then the evangel to the Uncircumcision which was given to Paul.

Lock

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

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