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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/9/2001 12:45 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks for posting that quote, PotOnWheel, I appreciate the different perspective, and would tend to agree, though maybe not state it in that way (to speak of deification of man seems a bit too much). But I get to hear from St. Gregory!

quote:
To this St. Gregory the Theologian replied, "The unassumed is unhealed".

I never quite thought of it that way...

ISA 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried...

God bless you,
Lee

===========================================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/9/2001 12:49 PM (GMT -6)

Feeling flattened... Can't post much in the way of thoughts, how about a poem?

Some gaze into tender faces,
Others drink until morning light,
But all night I hold conversations
With my conscience who is always right.

I say to her: 'You know how tired I am,
Bearing your heavy burden, many years.'
But for her, there is no such thing as time,
And for her, space also disappears.

And again, a black Shrove Tuesday,
The sinister park, the unhurried ring
Of hooves, and, flying down the heavenly
Slopes, full of happiness and joy, the wind.

And above me, double-horned and calm
Is the witness ... O I shall go there,
Along the ancient well-worn track,
To the deathly waters, where the swans are.

- Anna Akhmatova

PS 42:11 Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.

God bless you,
Lee

===========================================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 9/9/2001 2:10 PM (GMT -6)

Great, Lee-

For the quote "The unassumed is unhealed" you could put the name of lots of Chruch fathers behind it, and just reword it a bit. Athanasius (He wrote "On the Incarnation" that C.S. Lewis did an intro for a modern edition for.) is another one.

So, when you say "to speak of deification of man seems a bit too much" -- well, that is a GOOD instinct.

Let me lead with the adjective before the noun on this one. "By grace" is always attached to anything. By contrast Christ is divine by "nature."

Eternal life? Yep, I want it. I can have it by grace, in Jesus Christ; not by nature. I have to stay attached to the vine, by grace. Christ IS the vine, by nature. I am being saved unto eternal life by grace; Christ is the LIFE (the way, the truth....)

I think that Timothy (Kallistos) Ware does a good job for western ears to list so many varients on the same thing: deified, divinized. . . and "christafied" is a new one to me, and I like it.

A Bethel Sem prof has a web article (also JETS) on "Theosis." Same thing. Life, eternal life, sharing in God's life. Whatever you want to call it.

But of course more is being said. Some partake more than others. Enoch "walked with God." Some walk more closely at times than at other times. Paul talked about being caught up--knowing not whether in body or spirit (or however it ways it)... The Orthodox go so far as to say that since our bodies are to be risen with Christ too (or course) that is proof that God's Spirit unites itself to us bodily (indwells) and has an effect on us that it very possitive! (But you will have to research THAT if you are interested.)

Well, my writing is crude. Here is Ware's again:

..."To be deified is, more specifically, to be "christified":
...the divine likeness that we are called to attain is the
...likeness of Christ. It is through Jesus the God-man that
...we men are "ingodded", "divinized", made "sharers in the
...divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4). By assuming our humanity,
...Christ who is Son of God by nature has made us
...sons of God by grace. In him we are "adopted" by God the Father,
...becoming sons-in-the-Son."

PotOnWheel

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 9/9/2001 3:28 PM (GMT -6)

Lee - Let me try this one, and you tell me what you think. (My guess is that our perspectives are pretty similar.)

When I read something like "become deified (en-God-ed) by grace I can't stop myself from pulling up the definition" "unmerited favor." That's a Protestant's flag to wave! That is all good; nothing bad. But in this case it might be distracting. What gets overlooked in the parade is what kind of en-God-ing is being talked about. Intuitively I am inclined to believe that a thought like "become God" pops up. That was Lucifer's sin! I don't want THAT one! But what I really think gets overlooked in the rush to remind myself that grace is without merit on my part is the very nature of what Grace is!

Grace is not something that God creates to do his bidding. Grace is God's own actions/energies (in Patristic and Byzantine theology). Were Grace a creation in-and-of-itself as, it seems, as the RCC seems to have formulated, then the impossibility of such a "grace" magically ("poof") turning someone into a God enters the realm of imaginative possibilities -- albeit demonic imagination. But Grace is not a creation. That is not what Grace is. Grace is God's energies. (Palamas) Here's a good example! The fruit of the Spirit is a work of Grace! On one extreme the fruit of the Sprit does not make us divine by nature. But neither is it just good deeds that we do of out own energy to mimic God's prototypical pattern. That fruit is created in us by the Spirit's energies/actions in synergy with our own will -- "to will and to do" -- but the Grace is uncreated. If that is clear.....if I can keep it clear in my own mind.....I will realize that the idea of God by his Spirit's indwelling would make me somehow not need that constant fellowship with the True Vine (to be a God by myself) is just crazy, and not worth thinking about. Neither is that what the Eastern Fathers are saying.

Becoming "deified (en-God-ed)" is not just the only possibility for us; it is also what we were created for, and why God became incarnate.

PotOnWheel

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/09/2001 8:42:46 PM

Modes of Thought
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 9/10/2001 2:57 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Actually. . .MODES, it has less to do with actual theology as it does with the brut numbe of posts one has on this website. I'm only posting this onw to be tied with you again; as I'm not sure were the cut-off point is.

PotOnWheel

This will give away how long its been since I checked into this thread but THAT was too funny to not thank POW for making me LOL!

You know I love ya bro.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

Modes of Thought
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 9/10/2001 3:12 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Lee - Let me try this one, and you tell me what you think. (My guess is that our perspectives are pretty similar.)

When I read something like "become deified (en-God-ed) by grace I can't stop myself from pulling up the definition" "unmerited favor." That's a Protestant's flag to wave! That is all good; nothing bad. But in this case it might be distracting. What gets overlooked in the parade is what kind of en-God-ing is being talked about. Intuitively I am inclined to believe that a thought like "become God" pops up. That was Lucifer's sin! I don't want THAT one! But what I really think gets overlooked in the rush to remind myself that grace is without merit on my part is the very nature of what Grace is!

Grace is not something that God creates to do his bidding. Grace is God's own actions/energies (in Patristic and Byzantine theology). Were Grace a creation in-and-of-itself as, it seems, as the RCC seems to have formulated, then the impossibility of such a "grace" magically ("poof") turning someone into a God enters the realm of imaginative possibilities -- albeit demonic imagination. But Grace is not a creation. That is not what Grace is. Grace is God's energies. (Palamas) Here's a good example! The fruit of the Spirit is a work of Grace! On one extreme the fruit of the Sprit does not make us divine by nature. But neither is it just good deeds that we do of out own energy to mimic God's prototypical pattern. That fruit is created in us by the Spirit's energies/actions in synergy with our own will -- "to will and to do" -- but the Grace is uncreated. If that is clear.....if I can keep it clear in my own mind.....I will realize that the idea of God by his Spirit's indwelling would make me somehow not need that constant fellowship with the True Vine (to be a God by myself) is just crazy, and not worth thinking about. Neither is that what the Eastern Fathers are saying.

Becoming "deified (en-God-ed)" is not just the only possibility for us; it is also what we were created for, and why God became incarnate.

PotOnWheel

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/09/2001 8:42:46 PM

Well said POW, passages like Romans 8 assume the Spirit of God in us is ultimately that power to which we yield as we walk in the Spirit.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

Modes of Thought
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 9/10/2001 4:52 PM (GMT -6)

Let me through this in the mix for fun, some wonder if a closer connection might be made between omnipresence of God and the "ruach" or breath of God which is breathed into each of us. Let me elaborate...when we bring the message of Christ, we certainly have something to say, we are bringing the message of salvation! but we are not introducing GOD into the situation for the first time are we? No, God is present already, as sustainer and giver of life. In this way, we might speak of life itself as a sort of prevenient grace. The usual form of prevenient grace being that intensification of the Sirit of God which enables us to have the possibility to chose Christ, though we are clearly dead in our sins...anyway, if your still hanging with me, what I am wondering is about this idea that I have heard that God's drawing all unto Godself involves a sort of dual cooperation on the part of the human self, one is cooperating with the "light that is within" and the message that comes from without... here the trinity sorta does a tag team or double teaming on the person being drawn...any thoughts?

Just thinking out loud. BTW: POW this relates to your grace as object by preserving the word for immediate reference to GOD either in the form of explicitly "Christ"-ian grace or potentially Spirit-ual grace.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

Lee Merrill
booted

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723

Posted 9/13/2001 2:20 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
On one extreme the fruit of the Sprit does not make us divine by nature. But neither is it just good deeds that we do of out own energy to mimic God's prototypical pattern.

That is a good balance, the Lord indwells us, and we are part of Christ's body:
JN 14:20 "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

And there is the Scripture that Jesus himself quoted:

PS 82:6 I said, You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.

But this is not in the sense that God is God:

ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

quote:
I have heard that God's drawing all unto Godself involves a sort of dual cooperation on the part of the human self.

I am tending to believe that this is all God's work, even our cooperation!

PHP 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

God bless you,
Lee

P.S. Still reeling a bit now from the news of Tuesday, will post more when I get more settled again.

1CO 14:15 So what shall I do? I will pray...

===========================================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 9/13/2001 4:07 PM (GMT -6)

THANKS LEE. THANKS MODES.

I'll not be definite here. Modes thought seemed creative. I'm depleted; not from events, but from helping kids through... Sorry. But I want to respond to Lee.

quote:
Lee: I am tending to believe that this is all God's work, even our cooperation!
PHP 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I love that verse, Lee. It helped me live with a Calvinist label for quite some time.
Right now, however, I'm "critiquing" the Heidelberg Catechism because my oldest son's Sunday School uses it as a text this year. (I'm not a Calvinist anymore--but I'm not a church hopper either!) If I can find it here....Fooouund it! Part of Q&A#1 says (know this one, Lee?) "...and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him."
In my own side-notes I have written "w/ free will; yet with will and work".
I think I was thinking that, for those "IN Christ" that free will does operate, and that that is part of synergy with God. (I believe that; and don't care whether evangelicals might be allergic to "synergy" as a concept.) I also added besides that that God does work "in you to will and to act according to his good purpose" That PHP 2:13 verse is huge in my estimation. But, also in my estimation, it does not at all remove our free willing. (Focus on what the will is! Not on some well-worn issue!) I guess I think of it, that on-top of the PHP 2:13 accomplishment WE can will too. And when WE will TOO then God adds to that.
I THINK that that was my feeling when reading Q&A#1.

A dad.

PotOnWheel

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/13/2001 9:44:35 PM

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