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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/3/2004 12:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Christian Zionism" is Unbiblical

http://kdcr.dordt.edu/cgi-bin/plumblines/get_individual_plumbline.pl?id=5704
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/3/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
God did give the land to Israel, though. Now it might be taken back in a bad way, like Jacob and the birthright and the blessing, but the Israelites do have a claim to the land:

2 Kings 8:6 Then he assigned an official to her case and said to him, "Give back everything that belonged to her, including all the income from her land from the day she left the country until now."

They have the title deed! And I don't think they are pushing the Palestinians out, they are just moving in.

No, we don't condone any sin, nor should we support a bad way to take back what God gave. We should love and support both Israelis and Palestinians, and do the best for them all. And that implies cooperating with God's plans!

Isaiah 54:2-3 Enlarge the place of your tent, stretch your tent curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes. For you will spread out to the right and to the left; your descendants will dispossess nations and settle in their desolate cities.

Because that will turn out for the best, for everybody...

Isaiah 27:6 In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.

Romans 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/4/2004 3:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hope not everyone on this site thinks that sin is OK.

http://kdcr.dordt.edu/cgi-bin/plumblines/get_individual_plumbline.pl?id=5704
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/4/2004 4:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
  • Covenant, Land, and City
    Finding God's Will in Palestine

    Paul Nadim Tarazi, "Covenant, land and city: finding God's will in Palestine,"
    The Reformed Journal 29 (1979) 10-16
    with commentary by the editor of The Reformed Journal

    http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/Paul-Nadim-Tarazi/Articles/Covenant-Land-and-City.html


Lee Merrill said: "They have the title deed!"

PoW: But that is NOT the way God has dealt with Israel. (See above.)



=================================================
(Bib info is great. You're free to summarize Tarazi's arguments in your words if you like POW.)

atx


Darn it, atx. Big Smile I completely respect what you are saying, and in spirit I was trying to do it. I have no complaints with your removing the separate paragraphs that I placed here.

BUT... This is the first time I'm returning to them, so that I CAN summarize and comment -- just as you say (irony!). And, unfortunately you beat me to it. Big Smile

I loose. (Can't blame you!)
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/4/2004 4:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
The LaGrange Declaration
May 1979

------------------------------------------


As believers committed to Christ and his kingdom, we challenge the popular assumptions about biblical interpretation and the presuppositions of political loyalty held so widely by fellow Christians in their attitudes toward the conflict in the Middle East.

We address this urgent call to the church of Jesus Christ to hear and heed those voices crying out as bruised reeds for justice in the land where our Lord walked, taught, was crucified, and rose from the dead. We have closed our hearts to these voices, and isolated ourselves even from the pleading of fellow Christians who continue to live in that land.

We are anguished by the fact that countless Christians believe that the Bible gives to the modern State of Israel a divine right to lands inhabited by Palestinian people, and divine sanction to the State of Israel's policy of territorial acquisition. We believe such an understanding must be judged in the light of the whole of biblical revelation affirming that in the revelation of Jesus Christ, God's covenants find their completion. Therefore, we plead for all Christians to construct a vision of peace in the holy land which rests on the biblical injunctions to correct oppression and seek justice for all peoples.

Forthrightly, we declare our conviction that in the process of establishing the State of Israel, a deep injustice was done to the Palestinian people, confiscating their land and driving many into exile and even death. We are further grieved by the ongoing deprivation of basic civil rights to those Arabs who live today in the State of Israel.

Moreover, for thirteen years, large portions of the holy land and its people, including the West Bank of the Jordan River, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, have suffered under foreign military occupation, even as in our Lord's time. Land is seized from its inhabitants. Water for farming is rationed and restricted. Schools and universities are closed by the Israeli military authorities. And 100,000 people have been arrested in large part for speaking their convictions. Of these, some have been subjected to brutal torture, described by the US Consulate in Jerusalem as "systematic" and documented beyond any question.

We confess our silence, our indifference, our hardheartedness, and our cowardice, all too often, in the face of these dehumanizing realities.

Earnestly, we pray for a new anointing of the Spirit in our hearts, creating us into a more faithful people used to break every yoke of oppression and let the broken victims go free.

We extend our hearts to our Jewish brothers and sisters, common sons and daughters of Abraham. Like us in the United States, their corporate national spirit is being corroded by the weight of the government of the State of Israel's reliance on rampant militaristic policies and actions. We would pray for them, and with them, for a vision of security rooted in expanding channels of trust rather than escalating arsenals of armed might.

Historically and today, the State of Israel's territorial ambitions have been justified as security needs. Through the decades, this has instigated a cycle of violence and counterviolence that still continues, engulfing all sides, and leaving none unblemished from the spilling of innocent blood. We pray with the Psalmist for every bow to be broken and every spear to be snapped.

Too many of us have been lulled into the shallow hope that peace can be built in the Middle East through the US supply of more weapons, with the continued military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, and while basic human and political rights of the Palestinian people are denied. We call on Christ's followers to repent from their complicity -- through either their indifference or their uncritical embrace of US policies -- in the continuing cycle of Middle Eastern violence, accelerated by our tax dollars and our government's political decisions.

The Arab people and their land have been plundered for centuries by Western Christendom. We acknowledge and confess a continuing legacy of prejudice, evidenced today, toward Arab people, both Christian and Moslem.

We repudiate with equal and uncompromising fervor the enduring prejudice toward the Jewish people still present this day in our society and in our churches (those churches include, ironically, many of those churches with staunchly pro-Israeli biases, drawn from their versions of biblical interpretation).

Overcoming these divisions and hatreds, we affirm, as God's revelation declares, our common humanity with all.

We believe that any biblical hope for peace and security for all peoples in the Middle East must encompass some form of restitution for past wrongs. Life, peoplehood, and land are all God's gifts. These gifts enjoyed by the Jewish people in the Holy Land have been denied to the Palestinian people. Therefore, we yearn and we call for the building of a peace that includes the clear expression of political self-determination and justice for the Palestinian people. This includes leadership of their own choosing, and a sovereign state. Our firm conviction is that through asserting these rights, the way can be opened for Jews in Israel and Palestinian people to find peace and true security in that land.

We pledge ourselves, and we invite others, to an urgent devotion to see God's purpose of peace, justice, and reconciliation realized in this land. In that spirit, we call upon all Christians to join with us in reexamining assumptions regarding biblical revelation and views of the conflict in the Middle East; we commit ourselves and our resources to active and ongoing dialogue with other Christians on these questions; and, we pray that the Body of Christ will extend its life as a humble, sacrificial and unswerving servant of peace/salaam/shalom in the land where God sent his Son to live among us.
------------------------------------------



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Tom
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   Posted 9/4/2004 4:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Having lived on the West Bank among Palestinians for ten years (before and after the Uprising) and seen first hand what they have to live with and how they are treated, I have to confess that I have a very difficult time seeing the present State of Israel as the fulfillment of anything biblical. That's not to say the Palestinians haven't shot themselves in the foot time and time again and that neighboring Arab nations haven't complicated the plight of the Palestinians, or that Palestinian suicide bombers aren't slamming shut the door on whatever small opportunities for peace that exist. But the continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza strip under the conditions of the past forty years is, in my view, immoral. But simply handing full independance over to the Palestinians "as is" tomorrow will not do either. Israel has created its own mess here too and only has itself to blame for being in such a fix at this point in time. It's not all the Palestinians' fault. But the Palestinians seem destined to make bad choices, be led by corrupt leaders, and adopt violent responses. Militant Islam is sinking their ship. Had THEY played their cards differently the world would be far more on their side than it now is (i.e., remember Ghandi?).

How's THAT for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Tom
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/4/2004 5:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi everyone,

quote:
Tom: Having lived on the West Bank among Palestinians for ten years (before and after the Uprising) and seen first hand what they have to live with and how they are treated, I have to confess that I have a very difficult time seeing the present State of Israel as the fulfillment of anything biblical.


Are you saying God has revoked his gift, though? They do have the title deed, Mr. Tarazi notwithstanding.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

I agree that there is sin on both sides, as Brother Andrew said, "we are expecting people who are not Christians to act like Christians." But still, I do think this is God's hand at work, to restore the Israeli people to the land that was given them.

Isaiah 66:8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children.

So let us support all the people there, and also be glad about the Jewish people living there, too:

Isaiah 66:10 Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her.

Because that will do us all good, Jewish, and Arab, and everyone:

Psalm 106:4-5 Remember me, O Lord, when you show favor to your people, come to my aid when you save them, that I may enjoy the prosperity of your chosen ones, that I may share in the joy of your nation and join your inheritance in giving praise.

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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Tom
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   Posted 9/4/2004 1:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lee: Are you saying God has revoked his gift, though? They do have the title deed, Mr. Tarazi notwithstanding.

Tom: I'm suggesting that perhaps some have misunderstood the gift ( Lee notwithstanding Wink).

Tom
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barryatk
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   Posted 9/5/2004 9:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

"Christian Zionism" is Unbiblical

http://kdcr.dordt.edu/cgi-bin/plumblines/get_individual_plumbline.pl?id=5704



I am intrigued with this subject. I have close friends who are Jewish. Think I may actually be one myself. Most in my circle are ardent that we of the US are bound by God to support Israel. This seems to mean, we must believe Israel owns the land in Palestine and does so because God gave it to them 2000 years back or more. This also ties in strongly with end-time teachings that try to tie in the prophecies of Daniel with today's events. I know one Jewish- now Christian minister who strongly opposes these ideas. He is a Christian before anythng else and preaches that the Jews we see today in Jerusalem and Israel ARE NOT the ones referred to in end-time prophesies. I am undecided. I do have serious doubts that we evangelicals have things right. I do doubt that God much likes the way Israel of today took back and still takes back this land. I doubt that God likes the way many Americans seem to think Arabs are evil and Israelies are not. It's as though we in the US seem to believe Israel is some uniquely wonderful nation and all the rest basically cursed. I am asking you on this board what you have studied and how you come to your conclusions...if you have?

Is Israel of this day the one talked of in Old Testament?
Is it more crucial for the U.S. how we treat this Israel than other nations?
Could it be that the church of our Savior, Jesus Christ, is now "Israel" in some sense?
Do you see Daniels prophesies playing out today in the news from the Middle East?

Barry
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/5/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi everyone,

quote:
Tom: I'm suggesting that perhaps some have misunderstood the gift ...


Well, I do think it includes, clearly, real land in Israel:

Genesis 12:7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land."

Genesis 35:12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you [Jacob], and I will give this land to your descendants after you.

Genesis 48:4 and said to me [Jacob], 'I am going to make you fruitful and will increase your numbers. I will make you a community of peoples, and I will give this land as an everlasting possession to your descendants after you.'

quote:
Barry: Is Israel of this day the one talked of in Old Testament?


Jewish people today are really Israel of the OT prophecies concerning this nation, yes.

Romans 11:1-2 I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

quote:
Is it more crucial for the U.S. how we treat this Israel than other nations?


We must certainly love all people with God's love, without favoritism. Yet Israel will be the head of the nations, and there is a special blessing for those who bless them (Gen. 12:3). So yes, it is more important, in that sense, how we treat Israel:

Zechariah 2:8 for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye--

quote:
Could it be that the church of our Savior, Jesus Christ, is now "Israel" in some sense?


Yes, the church is "Israel," in a sense:

Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

But that does not include all the references to the nation of Israel! As in Paul's statement above, "I am an Israelite," meaning, not "I am a believer," but "I belong to the nation." And there are specific promises for the nation of Israel, which do not apply to the church:

Isaiah 19:24-25 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."

quote:
Do you see Daniels prophesies playing out today in the news from the Middle East?


Yes, I think so. It's not absolutely certain, of course, but a nation was born in a day, and Jewish people are being regathered, as the Scripture said:

Jeremiah 16:14-15 "However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers."

That's happening now! I'm pretty certain. So let's be careful not to oppose God's purpose, of course we want everyone to act in a Christian manner in the Middle East. But if they don't, that still does not mean God's purposes have changed there.

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/5/2004 3:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Luke 14

    Jesus at a Pharisee's House


    1 One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. . . .

    7 When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: 8 "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. 9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this man your seat.' Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. 10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests. 11For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."



Lee's comment seems to miss the fact that the "gift" and the "calling" of God is a RELATIONSHIP; and not something that stands alone, is separable from, from God.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/5/2004 5:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
(Bib info is great. You're free to summarize Tarazi's arguments in your words if you like POW.)

atx



Here's what I am looking at:
quote:
History after Jesus Christ

If Yahweh is the Lord of history, then there is a movement in the Bible: the last line is not at the same level as the first one. It is simple heresy to reverse the movement of God's work by reminding him that if he still wants us to recognize him as our God then he ought to do exactly the same things he did in the past. Yahweh is the God of history, and we are no longer living in Abraham's time, or Moses' time, or Joshua's time. We are living in the time of the lordship of Jesus Christ. This biblical premise must never be overshadowed.

In Jesus of Nazareth we find this kind of criticism of the Jews of the first century. He reminded them that we cannot lock God even in his past experiences, that he is always ahead in realizing what he means to realize. And Christians believe that the end-realization happened in Jesus Christ. Thus, what is taking place after Christ is not a history like that of the biblical revelation which culminated in Jesus. And the basis for this is the Christian belief that not only the Lord Jesus coming in glory, but also Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, is the eschatological being.



Foremost here, and also in the Luke verse, is that it is the LORD who calls us to take our place at the table. No printed ticket is lord of both us and Him. Promises point us to him, who IS the Promise. ({Promises don't dictate old history into the present.)


Like those in Jesus parable, we all should take the last place, and then wait for Him to elevate us.


Obviously, those calling for "Christian Zionism" want to take it all into their own hands. Jesus clearly warns against that!


Those who do not, and who deny the 'table' (to exclude others who are not Jews) to others need to heed Jesus other words from the same chapter in Luke:
quote:
34 "Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/5/2004 5:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I found very interesting what Tarazi had to say about "The Land in the Biblical Thought" (See: http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/Paul-Nadim-Tarazi/Articles/Covenant-Land-and-City.html)

quote:
Since Yahweh is the ultimate reality and the basic subject of theology, and since he is a moving and dynamic reality, we must be careful if we speak of the "theology of the land." For theology of the land or theology of the covenant or theology of the church are all merely different aspects of the one theology whose topic is Yahweh.
This keeps us from considering anything as separate from the relationship, from the Lord himself. Jeremiah said of those who 'rap-ed'"The Temple of the Lord, the Temple of the Lord, dude...":
      (Jere 7:1 NIV)

      This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 "Stand at the gate of the LORD's house and there proclaim this message: "`Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. 3 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, "This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!" 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless. 9 "`Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, "We are safe"--safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.


I don't see any "ticket" that gives them any autonmous right!

Tarazi continues:
quote:
In order to understand the place of land in the Bible we have to view it against the background of the two thousand years before Christ. In the Eastern Mediterranean area there were a number of groups of people moving around, looking for a settlement. Ancient Israel was no exception. This is clear from the fact that the issue of the promised land is dealt with specifically and intensively in the first seven books of the Old Testament, which cover the period of the settlement in Canaan, but in the following books there is either nothing about the land or only a discussion of how the people ought to behave in it.
Hmmmm..... behavior..... relationship. (NOT AN AUTONOMOUS THING. NO BEING A BRIDE WITHOUT BEGIN CONNECTED TO THE BRIDEGROOM. NO WIDDOW QUEEN.)

And notice the full context:
quote:
Moreover, the stress on the importance of the land as it emerges in the Bible was developed in the eighth, seventh, and sixth centuries before Christ when the people thought that God would never forsake the land. The land, they said, was Yahweh's gift to Abraham and his posterity, and he will stick to his promises and gifts. That line of reasoning was, of course, an effort to bind God to a human way of thinking, which is often the expression of human wishes. Then came Deuteronomy to remind the people that the possession of the land was conditional: the land had been given, not taken. It is always a gift of God, which means that it is God who is important in the whole issue. The land was only meant to be a threshold to what was more important: Jerusalem and the Temple where the glory of Yahweh abides.

Here it all is in clarity, in thundering truth.

So...
quote:
Thus the land and its importance was a specific stage at a particular time in God's plan. The movement of that plan went on. This explains why, in spite of all the parallelism drawn in the Bible itself between the Exodus and the return from Babylon, the latter was different from the former. One way in which it differed is that the realization of the ultimate goal of this second exodus did not begin with the land, then center on Jerusalem, and finally culminate in the Temple. Rather, as we can see in Ezra-Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah, it began with the Temple, then extended to Jerusalem, then expanded to the rest of the "land-earth." Because of this centrifugal movement the land is no more delineated. The new horizon is the whole earth.

Who can deny this?
quote:
The second experience (return from the exile) was not parallel to the first (exodus). Those who force such a parallelism show their willingness to impose their views and their own experience with God on his subsequent dealings with us. Luke grasped the intention of the movement here in his two-volume book in a marvelous way: everything was centered in Jerusalem, and Jesus Christ performed his exodus in Jerusalem -- not out of Jerusalem (Lk 9:31). When Jesus/Yahweh had done his last specific deed, the movement went from Jerusalem to Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8).


We can see from what Tarazi explains, that "Christian Zionism" is a reversal of God's revelation.

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/6/2004 8:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi everyone,

quote:
Moreover, the stress on the importance of the land as it emerges in the Bible was developed in the eighth, seventh, and sixth centuries before Christ when the people thought that God would never forsake the land. The land, they said, was Yahweh's gift to Abraham and his posterity, and he will stick to his promises and gifts. That line of reasoning was, of course, an effort to bind God to a human way of thinking, which is often the expression of human wishes.


This was a covenant, though, with Abraham! Saying this won't happen is saying God breaks his word. And calling God's covenants human ways of thinking undoes the new covenant, too.

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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Tom
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   Posted 9/6/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Perhaps, Lee, God's promise to Abraham regarding the land is fulfilled in something more grand than the specific state of Israel or within its boundaries. Paul interprets the land promise in Rom. 4 as God's having promised that Abraham will inherit the "cosmos." Why would Paul say that? Didn't he understand the promise was specific and had identifiable boundaries? I think the land promise is fulfilled ultimately in something greater. This is not to break his promise, it's to fulfill it, but in a way the historical land of Palestine cannot possible comprehend.

Tom
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Similitude
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   Posted 9/6/2004 10:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB,

quote:
Perhaps, Lee, God's promise to Abraham regarding the land is fulfilled in something more grand than the specific state of Israel or within its boundaries. Paul interprets the land promise in Rom. 4 as God's having promised that Abraham will inherit the "cosmos." Why would Paul say that? Didn't he understand the promise was specific and had identifiable boundaries? I think the land promise is fulfilled ultimately in something greater. This is not to break his promise, it's to fulfill it, but in a way the historical land of Palestine cannot possible comprehend.


The greek word for cosmos typically refers to the world of men on earth - not the universe in the Carl Sagan sense. That being the case, there is no contradiction to the land promise being good. For the promise included the blessing of ALL nations from the get-go. And if Christ (Abraham's seed) shepherds the nations with a rod of iron in a literal earthly kingdom, the greek word "kosmos" can have it's fulfillment in just that way.


wjs

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/6/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill

This was a covenant, though, with Abraham! Saying this won't happen is saying God breaks his word. And calling God's covenants human ways of thinking undoes the new covenant, too.


The "human way of thinking" is mankind's sinful, egotistical shifting from relationship to legalistic deal-making.
quote:
...Then came Deuteronomy to remind the people that the possession of the land was conditional: the land had been given, not taken. It is always a gift of God, which means that it is God who is important in the whole issue.

As contitional, there is no legalism of "you said..." possible. But no one reading the OT narrative doubts that.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/6/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by TGB

Perhaps, Lee, God's promise to Abraham regarding the land is fulfilled in something more grand than the specific state of Israel or within its boundaries. Paul interprets the land promise in Rom. 4 as God's having promised that Abraham will inherit the "cosmos." Why would Paul say that? Didn't he understand the promise was specific and had identifiable boundaries? I think the land promise is fulfilled ultimately in something greater. This is not to break his promise, it's to fulfill it, but in a way the historical land of Palestine cannot possible comprehend.

Tom



!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/6/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Like Tom said:

quote:
Hebrews 11:38-40 "...the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."


And jefscott makes this point too, along with Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews).
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Tom
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   Posted 9/7/2004 4:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: The greek word for cosmos typically refers to the world of men on earth - not the universe in the Carl Sagan sense. That being the case, there is no contradiction to the land promise being good. For the promise included the blessing of ALL nations from the get-go. And if Christ (Abraham's seed) shepherds the nations with a rod of iron in a literal earthly kingdom, the greek word "kosmos" can have it's fulfillment in just that way.

Tom: Forgive my use of "universe." Should have been more careful. However, it remains to be argued that the small slice of real estate known as Palestine qualifies as "THE" cosmos even after the universal effects of Abraham's blessing are taken into account. These blessing are the gospel and are mediated through faith in Christ. They require nobody's statehood, or any other political entity.

Tom
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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/7/2004 2:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi everyone,

quote:
Tom: … it remains to be argued that the small slice of real estate known as Palestine qualifies as "THE" cosmos even after the universal effects of Abraham's blessing are taken into account. These blessing are the gospel and are mediated through faith in Christ. They require nobody's statehood, or any other political entity.


But just because there's more to come doesn't mean the original promise won't be fulfilled as stated. And yes, Abraham did not receive what was promised, but he will! The blessings include the gospel, but there are also specific promises for ethnic Israel, which God will bring about, which do require a real nation, in the usual sense:

Isaiah 19:24-25 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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JEE
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   Posted 9/7/2004 3:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The following passage leads me to believe that the New Covenant with Israel did not include possession of any real estate, but rather with the nature of the law becoming internalized in the heart:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In any case, it does not seem clear to me how we can say that Israel of today is necessarily the same thing as Abraham's seed to whom the promises were made, for we read in Galatians that believing Gentiles have now received the promises of Abraham, and no mention is made of physical land:

Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Food for thought.

John


http://revivaltheology.net

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Lee Merrill
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   Posted 9/8/2004 3:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi everyone,

quote:
Jee: Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


But God didn't promise they would always keep the kingdom at all times! He did promise them the land, though.

quote:
The following passage leads me to believe that the New Covenant with Israel did not include possession of any real estate, but rather with the nature of the law becoming internalized in the heart:

Hebrews 8:9 … they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts…


But this is the covenant with Moses, not the covenant with Abraham. The promise of the land was made to Abraham, and this promise was not in the covenant that Moses brought.

quote:
In any case, it does not seem clear to me how we can say that Israel of today is necessarily the same thing as Abraham's seed to whom the promises were made, for we read in Galatians that believing Gentiles have now received the promises of Abraham, and no mention is made of physical land:

Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The blessing of Abraham refers to "all nations will be blessed through you," I think, not to the promise of inheriting the land.

quote:
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Well, I don't expect that Paul means only Jesus will inherit any land in Canaan. Nor do I think Paul believes the promise of land was nullified somehow. Isaac understood the promise of land to apply to him, Jacob did, too, and I don't think they misunderstood. So I think we have two senses of the promise made to Abraham, in a sense it applies to believers, in Christ, with an inheritance similar to the Israelites inheriting land in Canaan:

1 Peter 1:4 … into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you …

Not kept on earth! Though the meek will inherit the earth.

Genesis 13:16 I will make your seed like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your seed could be counted.

So "seed" is singular, meaning Christ, yet it still refers to many people, to all who are in him, and also to all Jewish believers, who are in him, I think the promise of land in Canaan applies specifically to them:

Exodus 32:13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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