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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | Gay ... But Not Funny
http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/2004/05/gay-but-not-funny.html
quote:
...a priest who delivered a talk on sex in his church. He began by asking, “How many of you are not married?” After a showing of hands he asked, “How many of you are married?” He then pointed from the latter group to the former stating, “Alright, you can. You can’t.” This is true. God-pleasing sexual relations are between a man and a woman within the sacrament of holy matrimony. Period. Everything else is merely a footnote to that axiom.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/6/2004 6:46 AM (GMT -6) | | These two. This: quote:
A priest once told about a man who came to see him about becoming Orthodox. The priest said, “Okay, we’ll need to discuss who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” The man interrupted him saying, “I’m gay.” The priest said, “Okay. But if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to discuss who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” “Dang it! Didn’t you hear me? I said, I’m gay!” “I heard you,” said the priest, “but if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to talk about who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” Crying, the man told the priest that other pastors had either told him it didn’t matter, or to get out! It took the man a couple years to become Orthodox, but another 10 years to become celibate. He claims he could never have made it without the benefit of Christ, the Church, and the Sacraments.
And this: quote:
The Church – our Spiritual Hospital – must be open to all. We’re all sick with the disease of sin. We cannot be healed, really healed, without receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. We must never turn our backs on someone just because they’re a sinner or their sin’s not ours. God forbid! This is the mission of the Church, to save sinners! But, by the same token, it is not within our power to state that a sin is no longer a sin. God alone forgives. God alone is the judge. He has revealed Himself and His will to us in the Scriptures, within the Church.
http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/2004/05/gay-but-not-funny.html
QUOTE: "God alone is the judge."
QUOTE: "“Dang it! Didn’t you hear me? I said, I’m gay!” “I heard you,” said the priest, “but if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to talk about who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” Crying, the man told the priest that other pastors had either told him it didn’t matter, or to get out!"
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/16/2004 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | C: why do you think Jesus died: so we could wallow in our sins? Why should we be more accepting of sin than God is?
Lesbians are not just another lifestyle: call it what God calls it...sin. We, as Christians, should never have a casual attitude towards sin. Particularly when it cost God his son.
Church is for weak, humble sinners who adknowledge their sins and come to God with their sins. It is not a place for people who believe in their lifestyle and believe what they are doing is "beautiful" in God's eyes. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/16/2004 9:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid,
Are you say that you believe someone can be a praticing homesexual and be saved?
quote:
I've always thought that if two lesbians could not walk into a church holding hands, and feel just as loved, welcomed, and fellowshipped with, the nthat church is way to judgemental; they don't have to agree with the lifestyle, they just have to accept the sinners just like themselves.
-Isn't that one of the duties of a church...judge sin (within the church), false teachers and the like?
-lifestyle...Feel hit on this one! quote:
Lesbians are not just another lifestyle: call it what God calls it...sin.
-Maybe they don't know it is a sin because they live in a world that tells them it is OK...just another lifestyle!
quote:
Or is the problem homosexuality? Is that sin worse than acceptable sins?
NO...it is not worse, but make no mistake it is a sin. And Paul said if you are praticing, unrepentant and habitual sinner will NOT enter heaven... 1 Corinthians 6
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/16/2004 1:24 PM (GMT -6) | | KK,
Yes, I know... it was a stand alone question.
The quote had to do with the question below it. sorry to confuse. sloppy pasting job...SOME of us are no Pros at the cut and paste.I have no one in mind with that comment...
BTW- KK how you get the 'Originally posted by'before the quote? | | Back to Top | | |
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Kublai Khan
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Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/16/2004 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/17/2004 4:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I think God saves sinners. There are immediate changes. There are processes of change. Let's use Peter as an example. Before the crucifixion he made a profession of faith. He demonstrated that he had faith in Jesus when he walked on water. But he denied Christ later. He started sinking in the water. So what did Jesus do? He restored Peter. He caught Peter by the hand.
1st Didn't Peter sunk because lack of faith not sin...but that is neither here nor there.
quote:
Or take Paul. Was he repentant before conversion or was he a practing murderer?
How can he repent BEFORE conversion...who he repent to?
AND I'm not saying don't let sinners fellowship or there would be no one there. But if there is a Homosexual couple in your fellowship it is our duty to point out there sin... just like if there was a couple in your fellowship and you had knowlege the husband was commiting adultery.
James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Also,
Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
Here we see both individually and as a church we are to judge what is a sin and who was wronged...we are to judge the sin, NOT judge them to condemnation, that is Gods job!
quote:
What about not entering church? Wasn't that what we were talking about? What did I miss?
So if two lesbians come to fellowship, I believe we are to speak up just as if there was a married guy comes to fellowship with his hot new girlfriend...Or someone in church is dropping the f-bomb and using Gods name in vain! | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/17/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So if two lesbians come to fellowship, I believe we are to speak up just as if there was a married guy comes to fellowship with his hot new girlfriend...Or someone in church is dropping the f-bomb and using Gods name in vain!
When this all started I was refering to feelin:quote:
It is not a place for people who believe in their lifestyle and believe what they are doing is "beautiful" in God's eyes.
Now, I have no problem with approaching people to help them with their sin, but that's not what the issue was. Maybe that's what the issue is now. I think homosexuality is sin. I also think gluttony is sin. The church has a much bigger problem with gluttony than with homosexuality. I haven't confronted any gluttons about their gluttony. Maybe I should. quote:
James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Also,
Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
Treat him as an heathen and a publican. Well, how did Jesus treat those people? There is reason to not include these people as members, to not allow them positions of leadership, maybe even not to take communion with them. But Jesus made it a habit of eating with rejects. Jesus and rejects got along fine. It's the churched that Jesus had problems with. quote:
So if two lesbians come to fellowship, I believe we are to speak up just as if there was a married guy comes to fellowship with his hot new girlfriend...Or someone in church is dropping the f-bomb and using Gods name in vain!
Speak to them? Yeah. Ask them to leave? No. If we don't show hospitality and love to people who cuss, or don't have sex like we do, or cheat on their spouses, then all we are are hypocrites. Our religion is f***ed.
BTW, at least people who "drop the f-bomb" in public are being forthright. The church has more than its fair share of back-stabbers and gossips. Perhaps, people who swear openly have something to teach us.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/18/2004 5:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
So if two lesbians come to fellowship, I believe we are to speak up just as if there was a married guy comes to fellowship with his hot new girlfriend...Or someone in church is dropping the f-bomb and using Gods name in vain!
When this all started I was refering to feelin:quote:
It is not a place for people who believe in their lifestyle and believe what they are doing is "beautiful" in God's eyes.
Now, I have no problem with approaching people to help them with their sin, but that's not what the issue was. Maybe that's what the issue is now. I think homosexuality is sin. I also think gluttony is sin. The church has a much bigger problem with gluttony than with homosexuality. I haven't confronted any gluttons about their gluttony. Maybe I should. quote:
James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Also,
Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
Treat him as an heathen and a publican. Well, how did Jesus treat those people? There is reason to not include these people as members, to not allow them positions of leadership, maybe even not to take communion with them. But Jesus made it a habit of eating with rejects. Jesus and rejects got along fine. It's the churched that Jesus had problems with. quote:
So if two lesbians come to fellowship, I believe we are to speak up just as if there was a married guy comes to fellowship with his hot new girlfriend...Or someone in church is dropping the f-bomb and using Gods name in vain!
Speak to them? Yeah. Ask them to leave? No. If we don't show hospitality and love to people who cuss, or don't have sex like we do, or cheat on their spouses, then all we are are hypocrites. Our religion is f***ed.
BTW, at least people who "drop the f-bomb" in public are being forthright. The church has more than its fair share of back-stabbers and gossips. Perhaps, people who swear openly have something to teach us.
Sahid: let me answer you in a general way. There is a sense today (sadly brought about by books such as Ethics and Repenting Of Religion) which bring about the unfortunate notion that God's love is unconditional and we, as Christians, are suppose to accept anything within our mist in the name of "love." Such ways are not biblical and certainly not "loving."
The Bible never portrays God's love as unconditional, for he has always had conditions on his children, for that is the only way one grows and matures. Certainly parents expect their children to mature as they grow. As does God.
Further, what is the church? Is the church a group of believers, or a mixture of believers and unbelievers? The NT depicts the church as believers, those who know God, have repented of their sins and because they know God have a clue of what is right and wrong. Do I adknowledge all my sins? Perhaps not, but I do know when I have committed something that offends God. As believers we are called to not allow such things within our mist, as Paul and Jesus in Revelation shows. The church is a light to the world, but it also a closed community that people can join if they agree with the conditions God puts on salvation. The attitude that we should let anything within the congregation in the name of "love" is totally wrong. Until a person repents and invites God into their hearts they should not be a part of the congregation (I except children of believing parents from this, because it is the duty of the parents to raise them right and guide them along the path of salvation and they are not believers or unbelievers before the age of accountability). I believe it is the duty of individual Christians to lead people to salvation and then bring them to church. The individual Christian has allowed the collective church to take his job. Regardless, church is not the place for the unbeliever. In the NT the church is never about convertion but about worship and teaching. It should return to this function. And the church should never tolerate open sin in its mist, but should rebuke it and rebuke the person committing it.
There is a difference bewteen a person who sins and admits it and a person who believes they can do anything and be acceptable in the site of God. Books such as Repenting of Religion and Ethics have allowed people to avoid judgment by letting people believe that God's love is so unconditional that he will accept anything and we should too. Nothing is further from the truth. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/18/2004 5:52 PM (GMT -6) | | | BTW, Jesus did eat with the rejects, but I believe he ate with them because they knew their position in life. They knew they were sinners. And Jesus loved them for it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/18/2004 9:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The Bible never portrays God's love as unconditional, for he has always had conditions on his children, for that is the only way one grows and matures.
Two problems: this does not follow logically and the Bible portrays God's love as unconditional quite often. First, logic. Concrete children and abstract love are different things. Child != love. You say "he has always had conditions on his children", but that does not mean he has conditions on his love. Does a parent love his daughter because she is obedient or does he love her because she is his daughter? The love is there even before the daughter has the capacity to be obedient. Second, the bible. God loves despite disobedience. Prov 3:12. His love endures forever even in the face of disobedience. Mic 7:18, Is 54:8. Love never fails. 1 Cor 13:8. God is love. 1 John 4:16. Therefore he is never not love. God loves everyone. John 3:16. It is plainly not true that "The Bible never portrays God's love as unconditional". quote:
Further, what is the church? Is the church a group of believers, or a mixture of believers and unbelievers? The NT depicts the church as believers
I'm not saying that we should let unbelievers join the church. When did I say that? Whoever told you that I said that was lying! What I am saying is that the church should be the church of Jesus. Jesus should be our leader and teacher. Do you think he made a rule against worshiping in front of unbelievers? Do you think he would not allow an unbeliever to sit in the same building as his church just for being an unbeliever? What's wrong with worshiping in the midst of unbelievers? Thou shalt not worship the Lord your God in front of the heathen. quote:
As believers we are called to not allow such things within our mist, as Paul and Jesus in Revelation shows.
What verses are you talking about? quote:
The church is a light to the world, but it also a closed community that people can join if they agree with the conditions God puts on salvation.
Are you speaking literally or metaphorically when you say 'closed'? If literally, then you've created some problems. The church is a closed community, so any open community is not the church. So the church can only exist in solitude. When it reaches out to the unbelieving world it is no longer closed and therefore no longer the church. It is something else. So the church cannot obey Jesus' commandment to love one's neighbor and still remain the church. Hopefully, you mean it metaphorically, so that the church's membership is closed to unbelievers. This I have no problem with. I think unbelievers should not be members. They should be treated like Jesus treated unbelievers, with love. quote:
Regardless, church is not the place for the unbeliever. In the NT the church is never about convertion but about worship and teaching.
The NT church is never a place where English is spoken either. They are never mentioned as breathing, seeing, or blinking. Are you going to exclude these things from the church too? Be consistent. If you only allow what the NT mentions, you'd better not wear a watch to church, move your toes, or shake a hand. quote:
They knew they were sinners.
Really? Every time huh? Remember that story where a prostitute pours purfume on Jesus and washes his feet with her tears and hair? You remember who he was eating with? Not someone who acknowledged his sin. quote:
And Jesus loved them for it.
Emphatically, No! Jesus' love is not based on our actions. It's kind of strange. On other topics I'm arguing with people who think God forces his love on everyone, and here I'm arguing with people who think God doesn't love us unless we earn it. God loves everyone, yes, unconditionally. That doesn't mean everyone is going to heaven. Remember, there are two parts: Grace and faith. Some people only want grace, some only want faith, but the Bible has both. First God loves everybody, Grace. Then individuals accept this love, Faith. Just because someone doesn't respond to God's love doesn't mean God's love isn't there to respond to.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/19/2004 12:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid: What you are describing is God's unfailing love, not unconditional love. There is nothing within scripture that says that God will love us regardless, but rather that GOd's love never lets go and is always trying to get us to come back to him. But we must come back and we must live AS GOD WOULD HAVE US LIVE. So you are simply wrong that the Bible describes Gods love as unconditional. How is his love unconditional if there are conditions by which it can be in our lives. Your view is illogical.
Yes, I do believe that Jesus did not worship in front of unbelievers. Those who went to the temple were definitely believers. YOu mistakenly believe that because Jesus associated with the prostitutes that he had the same rules within worship. I strongly doubt that. Worship is for believers, not unbelievers.
I COrthians has full of Paul's condemnation of the believers for allowing sin within their mist, as is many of his writings. Jesus condemns several churches in Revelation for allowing sin.
"The church is never a place where English is spoken either..." try to address the issues, not use childish retorts. Pot wasn't smoked in churches either, maybe you would like to advocate that so we can find God. There is a vast difference bewteen saying certain things weren't done in the church and redefining what the church is. Poor sad argument there. We look to the example of the church in the NT to see what it was like. The church in the NT was a church of worshipping believers. There were no unbelievers in it. The NT was inspired by God and has the authority we should listen to. It calls the church a body of believers. You want to change that, fine. But I will listen to scripture instead.
Literally, the church as a body is a group of believers. That is the way the NT describes it. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with the way scripture describes it. I believe the church reaches out to the world as individual members and brings people into the fold. No problem there. But I do not believe people should join a church or attend worship until after they are believers.
As far as the story of the prostitute you mistaken assume that because Jesus ate with someone he would worship with them. I don't agree.
God's love is highly conditional...otherwise everyone would be in heaven. He would simply let everyone in. To say his love is unconditional but we must have faith and follow is nonsense. Either God has no conditions on his love, or he doesn't. And he does because we must do certain things to receive it (conditions). I would urge you to rethink your position. It has too many conditions in it ().
What is God's love worth to someone who does not respond to it? Nothing. So, to him, it doesn't really matter whether you call God's love unconditional or conditional. If he doesn't respond it is nonexistant to him. I agree God's love is always there. But it is affected by what we do. Israel's sin hurt God. There will be a judgment seat of Christ for our works, God has different rewards for different works, God loves his children differently than he loves the world. There is much in the Bible about his God's love is affected by us. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/19/2004 1:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
There is nothing within scripture that says that God will love us regardless, but rather that GOd's love never lets go and is always trying to get us to come back to him. But we must come back and we must live AS GOD WOULD HAVE US LIVE. So you are simply wrong that the Bible describes Gods love as unconditional. How is his love unconditional if there are conditions by which it can be in our lives. Your view is illogical.
There are conditions by which God's love can be in our life. But that's not the point. The experience of God's love is different from the love itself. There is a difference between giving and receiving. I'm not saying that we always receive the love. That is based upon the condition of our accepting it. That doesn't make God's love conditional. Surely, you can imagine someone loving someone else without that love being accepted. quote:
Yes, I do believe that Jesus did not worship in front of unbelievers. Those who went to the temple were definitely believers. YOu mistakenly believe that because Jesus associated with the prostitutes that he had the same rules within worship. I strongly doubt that. Worship is for believers, not unbelievers.
It's great that you believe that. Even if you grant that non-believers can't worship, that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that worship cannot be done in front of them. When you tell me that my position is illogical... Well... There's some expression about a pot and a kettle. quote:
There were no unbelievers in it.
Once again, I agree. I'm not saying the church should have non-believers in it. I'm saying there is no problem if we worship around them. quote:
I COrthians has full of Paul's condemnation of the believers for allowing sin within their mist, as is many of his writings. Jesus condemns several churches in Revelation for allowing sin.
But what about worshipping around 'sinners'? Wasn't that what we were talking about? quote:
The NT was inspired by God and has the authority we should listen to. It calls the church a body of believers. You want to change that, fine. But I will listen to scripture instead.
I don't think you're listening. That's not what I'm saying. quote:
Literally, the church as a body is a group of believers. That is the way the NT describes it. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with the way scripture describes it.
I don't think you're listening. That's not what I'm saying. quote:
But I do not believe people should join a church or attend worship until after they are believers.
I don't think you're listening. That's not what I'm saying. quote:
Either God has no conditions on his love, or he doesn't.
Doesn't what? Have no conditions? He doesn't have no conditions? Right. There is a difference between loving someone and that person receiving that love. Whether you can comprehend that or not has nothing to do with it. But, believe me, it is logical. quote:
What is God's love worth to someone who does not respond to it? Nothing. So, to him, it doesn't really matter whether you call God's love unconditional or conditional. If he doesn't respond it is nonexistant to him.
I agree. That doesn't make God's love unconditional, Mr. Logic.quote:
I agree God's love is always there.
So, God's love always exists? Unconditionally? Yeah, I'm illogical.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/19/2004 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | "There are conditions by which God's love can be in your life."
if this is unconditional love one has to wonder what you view as conditional love? But is seems you are getting testy about the whole issue so I will agree to disagree with you
"unconditionally,"
that is. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/20/2004 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | GOD is love...
But He is Alos perfectly JUST.
And if you are stooped in unrepented sin, and don't believe Jesus died for thoughs sins... no heaven for you.
How can you tell someone about what Gad has done for you IF YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE NOT SINNING...but it is just a different lifestyle! | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/21/2004 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid,
Dude, I will repeat myself..fine go to church...but does the church play a role in calling out sin?
I was talking about the comment of two lesbians holding hands and going to church... quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've always thought that if two lesbians could not walk into a church holding hands, and feel just as loved, welcomed, and fellowshipped with, then that church is way to judgemental;
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Aren't we as a church and christians called to call sin, SIN?
James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Also,
Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/21/2004 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid: it is simple...and Dude, what you are describing is conditional love, not unconditional, because love that is not in a person's life is not existant TO THEM. So it is irrevelant whether or not God's love exists IF we have no access to it and the only access we have to it is under THE CONDITIONS God sets. Therefore it is conditional.
I would add, in answer to your statement that there are conditions on God's love existance in our lives. Therefore, under your terms, God love is conditional.
BTW, Dude, this isn't about the confession of sin or any such stuff. You keep missing the point. The point is whether to allow blatant sin within the church. Persons that indulge in behavior the members of the church KNOW is against what God would have them do. And the answer, of course, is no. Those of us in the church will be judged just as the churchs in Revelation were judged by Jesus for allowing evil in their midst.
I still do not believe nonbelievers should be in worship, but that is secondary issue.
Christians today talk all about "love" and nothing about evil and sin, as if somehow Jesus died only to make us nice, "loving," people. He didn't. We are required to be holy and fight sin, the very thing that drove Jesus to the cross. Paul had enemies, Jesus had enemies and we will have enemies. And if people continue to refuse to adknowledge their sin and repent, they become enemies of God. God does have his enemies in this sector as well as the spiritual one. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/22/2004 7:08 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess we agree about the idea of God's love. That you can't distinguish between love and the experience of receiving love, isn't all that important.
I'm fine with calling sin, sin. But what you guys are advocating is more than that. Neither James 5:19,20 nor Matthew 18:15-17 advocate removing a sinner from worshipping with believers. They advocate confronting people with their sin (lovingly, I would urge), and they advocate treating an unrepentant sinner as an outsider. I'm fine with all of that. I think you've made a great case for that. But, where are we told to exclude our enemies from worship? Where are we told to treat heathens, publicans, and lesbians with anything less than the love Christ treats us with?
That is where this mess started. If we want to talk about who gets to go to heaven or who is really in the (upper case) Church, then fine. I'd enjoy talking about it. But I've avoided that discusion here, because it really is another subject. To say so-and-so isn't in the Church or going to heaven doesn't mean that they should be excluded from fellowship with worshipping believers. What I keep hearing is stuff like "the point is whether to allow blatant sin within the church". Now if we're talking about (lower case) church and 'within' means membership within the church, then I agree. But I get the feeling that you're taking it further than that. It seems like to you there is no difference between 'church' and 'Church' and 'within' means 'among'. This I definitely disagree with and find the message of scripture to contradict. Whatever our hunches, we cannot say with anything close to certainty that Jesus only met or worshipped in front of people who admitted their sin. Before his death Jesus prayed (a form of worship) amongst his disciples who disobediently (and unrepentantly) kept falling asleep.
Finally, this quote:
Christians today talk all about "love" and nothing about evil and sin, as if somehow Jesus died only to make us nice, "loving," people. He didn't. We are required to be holy and fight sin, the very thing that drove Jesus to the cross. Paul had enemies, Jesus had enemies and we will have enemies.
#1 Holiness apart from love is a myth. #2 Loving isn't the same as your sarcastic 'nice'. #3 He did. He came to powerfully love us in such a way that his love fills and overflows us. #4 Fighting sin does not entail fighting people or excluding sinners from fellowship. #5 Yes, we have enemies. How did Jesus tell us to treat them? Don't worship in front of them? Didn't he say something about loving our enemies, blessing those who curse you? Don't be so quick to take the speck out of your brother's eye. I'm no better or more worthy of audience before God than any lesbian.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/23/2004 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | "I'm no better or worthy of an audience before God than any lesbian."
You really believe this statement? That you, as a Christian, that John calls a child of God are no better or worthy to be in front of God than a lesbian? If so, what worth is your Christianity to you?
Such a statement shows the horrible consequences of the "unconditional" view of God's love. That everyone is the same in God's eyes, even though Christ died to make us special to God, that it doesn't matter whether or not we accept the gift of God's son he loves us just the same as anyone else. Such a view demeans Christ and what he did.
We Christians are better and more worthy to stand before God. Of course we are. You are confused, Sahid, because you think that if you are more worthy, it is because of something you did. It isn't, but we are more worthy and better because that was one of the reasons Christ died.
One of the horrible consequences of the "unconditional" love of God is that we are sinners and remain sinners and we can never be holy. What foolishness! Jesus didn't die just to save us, but to renew us, put us in right standing with God and make us special to God. We are better because of what Christ did and we certainly are more worthy to stand before God. And one of the consequences of that is we have renewed respondibility before God to be pure and to keep the church pure.
It makes me wonder what is special about your standing before God if you aren't worthy. Paul says we can boldly enter the holy of holies. We have the ear of God. We are children of the Most High. Next you'll be telling me that God listens to the unrepentant the same as his children.
As Christians we have gone from being God's enemy to be his child. Perhaps you do feel you are no worthy. I am. Through Christ I am. Therefore I am truly worthy. FAr more than any of the unrepentant. Because of what Jesus has done for me.
BTW, love without holiness is a myth as well.
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