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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 7:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sis,
Let's not forget Venus and Aphrodite!!!
POW- A good read might be 'The Woman Who Rides The Beast' by Dave Hunt | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leviathan
Sis,
Let's not forget Venus and Aphrodite!!!
Yeah, type "Venus" or "Aphrodite" in your search engine and see what you get, or don't get based on the blocking software your company has.
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | So here is what you have;
Ishtar, Asherah, Semiramis, Venus and Aphrodite are all the same goddess... the queen of the heavens!!
So how did Mary get the name?
Well you may thank Constantine in 312 A.D for the marrige of religion and government with the Edict of Toleration! Instead of throwing out the pagen priests they just christianized everything...The pagan priest wore robes, some scarlet in color, with the same symbols on them today, tall hats...and the head high priest was called pontifux maxamus sound familiar???
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
He didn't know her until Jesus was born?
Oh, He didn't know her until Jesus was born!
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/9/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | PREMATURE ASSUMPTIONS. OLD-HAT ARGUMENTS. LONG SHOT DOWN.
quote:
Originally posted by Leviathan
Very nice Sis...
quote:
But you CAN'T proove from scripture that Mary had any other kids
quote:
Mary had other children
Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Also Jesus Mother and brothers came to visit Jesus!
SEE THESE:
quote:
Martin Luther
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}
quote:
John Calvin
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
quote:
Huldreich Zwingli
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained 'inviolata' before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - 'Hail Mary' . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
'Fidei expositio,' the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}
Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on 'Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.'
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}
I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}
quote:
Heinrich Bullinger
Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary's perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: 'In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.' She is 'the most unique and the noblest member' of the Christian community . . .
'The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.'
{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}
quote:
John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)
I believe... he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she
brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
{"Letter to a Roman Catholic," quoted in A. C. Coulter, John Wesley, New York: Oxford University Press, 1964, 495}
Leviathan and Sis. I was not convinced that any scriptural "proof" has been offered of your opinion.
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Leviathan
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | PoW...
Did Mary Have Other Children?
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
Gal. 1:19 - "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother."
An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:
In Greek, the word for brother is ‘adelphos’ and sister is ‘adelphe’. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word ‘brother’ means ‘fellow Jews’ or ‘cousin’ in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Let’s briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenter’s father? In other words, ‘mother’ here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though ‘carpenter’s son’ refers to Joseph, and ‘mother’ refers to Mary, ‘brothers’ does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus’ brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus’ siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’"
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother’s sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." God’s will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
With so many competing claims, how about a cage match to determine who the REAL "Queen of Heaven" is?
#1 -- I FIND THIS POST VILE. FILTH.
No Christian should EVER associate, like this, someone to whom God's Angel said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Someone of whom it is correctly said, "From now on all generations will call me blessed."
Call up Ruth Graham Bell, or her son, and ask them whether this is an appropriate activity for someone who professes Christ.
#2 -- I FIND THIS POST STUPID.
You show NO sense of grasping what is meant by Christians when they use that phrase. Your association of it with language from differnent religions and worldviews is intellectually insulting.
There are many, many poetic phrases used of the Panagia, but they are spoken of from within salvation, and not outwardly as dogma. Mary is also refered to as 'the burning bush' and likened to the 'Red Sea'... and on, and on... And within what they mean and the context they are spoken they make perfect sense, and gather the OT and NT together. Bottom line, they glorify God and focus on Christ.
This display is FILTHY. IF YOU DID SO WITH IMAGES OF MY DEPARTED MOTHER I MIGHT PULL YOUR EARS OR BITE THEM. I MIGHT SHOW YOUR DISPLAY TO YOUR OWN MOTHER AND SEE HER WEAP. SHAME ON YOU!
No notion attached to Ishtar, Asherah, or Semiramis applies to Mary.
DECIDE.
Jesus told John to treat Mary as he would his own mother.
HOW WILL YOU ANSWER JESUS?
WILL YOU OBEY HIM?
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Mat 1:22, Mat 1:23, Mat 1:24, Mat 1:25
LUTHER and CALVIN, and ZWINGLI, and WESLEY and BULINGER all answered that late-comer notion.
What you are posting is politics. Interpretation driven by grudge and prejudice. Anti-Catholic hate.
Its bad theology.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Sooooo, Mary wouldn't have been "pure" anymore if she had obeyed God by fulfilling her wifely duty to her husband Joseph by having sex with him after Jesus' birth? The only reason her virginity was important before and during Jesus' conception and growth in her womb was to prove that He was conceived by The Holy Spirit. But, after His birth, God would have wanted Mary and Joseph to please each other as a husband and wife should.
Where in the Bible does it say that a woman or man having sex with their own spouse defiles them? The Bible makes clear that we only defile our bodies when we have sex outside of marriage or during adultery. Nowhere does it say that Mary or anyone would be impure because of having sex with their own spouse, for crying out loud! She would have been just as pure afterward as before because she was in holy matrimony with Joseph under God. Somewhere along the way, Catholics got the mistaken idea that sex even in marriage is bad. That's where the real mistake lies. Not in whether or not Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born.
Your post does not address the issue underlying what it tries to address. So I won't bother responding to it.
FIND OUT WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS, WHAT ITS NATURE IS, AND THE CONTEXT IN WHICH TO UNDERSTAND IT.
You simply mentioned Augustine's prejudice against sex. One not held by most, and not at all foundational to the issue. Its mute. Augustine was wrong; but that does not change anything for this.
Get rid of your grudges if you want to begin understanding the foundation of this.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | | LUKE 1
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."
38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.
Mary Visits Elizabeth
39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"
Mary's Song
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me--
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."
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Leviathan
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
There are many, many poetic phrases used of the Panagia, but they are spoken of from within salvation, and not outwardly as dogma.
Mary
"Mary occupies a unique place in biblical history. She conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then she bore the Messiah. Among women, she is most blessed (Luke 1:42) and all who claim to be Christian acknowledge her as a chosen vessel of God. While Christians admit Mary’s uniqueness, the Catholic church has, in its own words, "clarified her position and nature through Sacred Tradition". Through the centuries, more and more doctrines concerning her have been ‘revealed.’ For example:
1.Mary is called the Mother of God 431 A.D
2.Prayers offered to Mary 600 A.D
3.Immaculate Conception (that she was sinless) 1854 A.D
4.Assumption of Mary 1950 A.D
5.Mary Proclaimed Mother of the Church 1965 A.D
An article appeared in Newsweek Magazine (8/25/97, p. 49) that examined an issue developing in Catholicism where petitioners are requesting the Pope to exercise papal infallibility to proclaim Mary as "Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." To its credit, the Catholic church rejected this request. But it is a telling statement of the Catholic adoration of Mary -- even when that adoration exceeds biblical boundaries.
Officially, however, the Catholic Church has much to say about her. She remained a virgin after the birth of Christ (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510). She is "The mother of the members of Christ" (par. 963). She was "Preserved free from all stain of original sin" (Catechism, par. 966). She is "Queen over all things" (par. 966). By Mary’s prayers, she delivers souls from death (par. 966). Mary, "...by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (par. 969). "The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, are an ‘epitome of the whole Gospel,’" (par. 971). Mary, "...when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven..." (par. 974). "...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420). "Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son" (Vatican Council II, p. 421). "This mother...is waiting and preparing your home for you" (Handbook for Today’s Catholic, p.31).
As you can see, Mary holds an exalted position in Catholic theology. Because of her exalted position in heaven, she is able to approach the Son with requests and petitions from her followers. She is prayed to, adored, and sought by millions of devotees.
Mary is Most Blessed Among Women
Mary is undoubtedly blessed among women (Luke 1:42). But, is it appropriate to attribute to her such titles as "Our Queen, Our Mother, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope"? I cannot see how it is. Was she sinless? It would seem not since she said she needed a savior in Luke 1:47, "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." Did she remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Again, it seems not since Matt. 1:25 says that Joseph, ". . .kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." Does she mediate and intercede for sinners? Again, the scriptures seem to contradict this when it states that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). Is she exalted above all angels? There is no scripture stating so. Can she simultaneously hear the prayers of countless people all over the world in different languages? Again, there is nothing in God's word to lead us to believe this.
Please understand that CARM is not attacking Mary or her wonderful position in history. Rather, it seeks to examine her position according to biblical revelation and answer the questions just posed. Hopefully, faithfully, and according to God's word, we can look at Scripture to find the answers."
____________
1 These dates were taken from the book, Roman Catholicism, by Loraine Boettner, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co. 1962, pp. 7-9
Sounds like Mary-ology to me
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Sooooo, Mary wouldn't have been "pure" anymore if she had obeyed God by fulfilling her wifely duty to her husband Joseph by having sex with him after Jesus' birth? The only reason her virginity was important before and during Jesus' conception and growth in her womb was to prove that He was conceived by The Holy Spirit. But, after His birth, God would have wanted Mary and Joseph to please each other as a husband and wife should.
Where in the Bible does it say that a woman or man having sex with their own spouse defiles them? The Bible makes clear that we only defile our bodies when we have sex outside of marriage or during adultery. Nowhere does it say that Mary or anyone would be impure because of having sex with their own spouse, for crying out loud! She would have been just as pure afterward as before because she was in holy matrimony with Joseph under God. Somewhere along the way, Catholics got the mistaken idea that sex even in marriage is bad. That's where the real mistake lies. Not in whether or not Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born.
Your post does not address the issue underlying what it tries to address. So I won't bother responding to it.
FIND OUT WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS, WHAT ITS NATURE IS, AND THE CONTEXT IN WHICH TO UNDERSTAND IT.
You simply mentioned Augustine's prejudice against sex. One not held by most, and not at all foundational to the issue. Its mute. Augustine was wrong; but that does not change anything for this.
Get rid of your grudges if you want to begin understanding the foundation of this.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leviathan
quote:
Sounds like Mary-ology to me
Which seems for you to be a knee-jerk brainless reaction-trigger.
"Mariology" is a subset of Christology. READ YOUR HISTORY:
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
[quote] http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/byzantine_theology_j_meyendorf.htm#_Toc26430271
The only doctrinal definition on Mary
to which the Byzantine Church was formally committed
is the decree of the Council of Ephesus which called
her the Theotokos, or "Mother of God." Obvious
Christological and not Mariological...
. . .
...the boundless expressions of Marian piety and
devotion in the Byzantine liturgy are nothing
other than an illustration of the doctrine of
hypostatic union of divinity and humanity in Christ.
In a sense, they represent a legitimate and
organic way of placing the somewhat abstract concepts
of fifth- and sixth-century Christology on the
level of the simple faithful.
READ THIS!
(Its been in plain site on page one of this thread.)
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Nativity-of-the-Theotokos.html
(Good text.)
quote:
The fact that there is no Biblical verification of the facts of Mary's birth is incidental to the meaning of the feast. Even if the actual background of the event as celebrated in the Church is questionable from an historical point of view, the divine meaning of it "for us men and for our salvation" is obvious. There had to be one born of human flesh and blood who would be spiritually capable of being the Mother of Christ, and she herself had to be born into the world of persons who were spiritually capable of being her parents.
The feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos, therefore, is a glorification of Mary's birth, of Mary herself and of her righteous parents. It is a celebration as well of the very first preparation of the salvation of the world. For the "Vessel of Light," the "Book of the Word of Life," the "Door to the Orient," the "Throne of Wisdom" is being prepared on earth by God himself in the birth of the holy girl-child Mary.
The verses of the feast are filled with titles for Mary such as those in the quotations above. They are inspired by the message of the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments. The specific Biblical readings of the feast give indications of this.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | SELECTIONS.
IT ALL CENTERS ON CHRIST!!!!!!!!
Of the Mother of God.
Tone 1.
The spiritual beams of universal joy have dawned for the world, at your nativity, O all-pure, foreshadowing for all the Sun of glory, Christ God. For you have been declared the mediator of true gladness and grace.
This pre-festal glory of yours, O all-pure, announces in advance to all the peoples the fair deeds of your kindness; for you are for us the source of present gladness and the cause of the joy to come, and the enjoyment of divine delight.
The Maiden who contained God, the pure Mother of God, the glory of the Prophets and the daughter of David is being born today of Joachim and holy Anne, and she turns aside the curse of Adam, which was upon us, by her child-bearing.
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At the Aposticha, Prosomia.
Tone 8.
O amazing wonder! How from a childless mother and fruitless sterility a rod is growing which bears a flower, the Mother of God who knows not wedlock, from the righteous Joachim and Anne. Therefore too the assembly of Prophets and the whole company of Patriarchs now rejoices at her nativity.
Today David exults, Jesse now leaps for joy and Levi is magnified; Joachim the righteous rejoices in spirit and Anne is freed from childlessness at your nativity, immaculate Mary, graced by God. The company of Angels with us mortals all call your godlike womb blessed.
Rejoice, company of mortals; rejoice, temple of the Lord; rejoice, holy mountain; rejoice, divine table; rejoice, lampstand all filled with light; rejoice, honoured glory of the orthodox; rejoice, Mary, Mother of Christ God; rejoice, all-blameless; rejoice, throne of fire; rejoice, tabernacle; rejoice, bush unconsumed by fire; rejoice, hope of all.
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Troparia.
In gladness let us today with joy sing the praise of the nativity of God’s Mother; for she also gave birth to joy for the inhabited world, abolishing the grief of our Foremother.
From a barren mother she who makes sin barren comes forth, whom the law foretold and the preaching of those inspired by God prophesied, the all-pure and all-blameless Lady.
You have become the temple and palace of the King, in which he who is beyond being made his dwelling and will make believers a habitation of the holy Trinity.
You have been declared loveliest of bridal chambers, highest throne of God, O Bride of God, in whom he dwelt in the flesh and rouses those who sit in the darkness of destruction to the light of knowledge by his goodness
http://www.ephrem.plus.com/07sep.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | I love the poetic imagery.
Well worth the time to notice!
Troparia.
Now the sealed volume is being brought to birth, which by nature’s law no mortal will read, kept as a dwelling for the Word, as the books of those inspired in spirit foretold.
The saving vine has been brought to birth today, which will flower with the pure cluster that pours out divine sweetness, from which all who mystically drink will gather divine and saving joy.
Angels, leap for joy, forming a choir with mankind. Today the Virgin, born from a barren womb, has made an to grief and is the harbinger of joy for those who keep the festival of her divine nativity.
The godly Prophet wrote of you, O Maiden, most clearly in prophecy as the new volume in which by the Father’s finger will be written the Word, who with loving-kindness inscribes in the book of life all those who obey his authority.
WHAT'S THIS POETRY SAYING?
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | LAST ONE:
Of the Mother of God.
All creation rejoice, as you perceive the joy being born beyond hope from Anne and godly Joachim, which is called Grace, Mary the all-immaculate and pure Mother of God; whose fruit has become salvation for mankind, Christ, God who was ineffably incarnate from her.
At the Aposticha of Lauds, Prosomia.Tone 2.
Come children of Adam, let us sing the praise of her who came of David’s line and gave birth to Christ, Mary the all-pure Virgin.
Verse: Hear, O daughter, and see, and incline your ear; and forget your people and your father’s house.
Let us offer praise to the Redeemer, the Lord who from a barren womb gave us the Mother of God and only ever-virgin.
Verse: The wealthy of the people will entreat your face.
Today the joy of the whole inhabited world, the Mother of my Lord, is born from a barren womb.
Glory. Both now. Tone 2.
The foreordained Queen of all, God’s dwelling place, sacred enclosure of the eternal being, has come forth today from the barren womb of glorious Anne. Through her rash Hell has been trampled down and Eve the mother of all living dwells in unfailing life. As is fitting let us cry out to her: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
NOTICE THE POETRY:
- ...God’s dwelling place, sacred enclosure of the eternal being
- Through her rash Hell has been trampled down
- ...and Eve the mother of all living dwells in unfailing life.
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:57 PM (GMT -6) | | PoW...
Ya Ya very nice...to bad I'm a 'Sola Scriptura' kind of guy. And don't really give a rip what the Roman church, Pope, Tom, Dick or Harry says... Mary was a great woman... but accord to the bible was NOT 'Ever Virgin' or 'without sin'....see other post
quote:
Which seems for you to be a knee-jerk brainless reaction-trigger.
What do you expect...go to a Protestant site and spew catholic dagma... the same religious bondage I excaped growing up.
let's cut to the chase... what must one do to go to heaven? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:12 PM (GMT -6) | | It would seem, in the end, that if Mary was indeed ever virgin, would not the Bible mention such a thing? Such a wonderful miracle! Indeed. Only as history unfolded did it take form, with the consequences being to rob Jesus of much of his true glory. Mary would be ashamed at the actions of many Christians today, who give glory to her, rather than to Jesus Christ, her earthly son.
You do not make an argument (or a doctrine out of silence). Even if the Bible said nothing about children, that would still not prove that Mary was ever virgin. Just another case of the historical church taking a myth and lifting it to idolatry. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I truly believe the reason the Catholic church views Mary this way is because of their unhealthy view of sex. "Naughty naughty" | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 1:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Call up Ruth Graham Bell, or her son, and ask them whether this is an appropriate activity for someone who professes Christ.
Alexander Graham Bell is still alive?!?!?
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