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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 2:04 PM (GMT -6) |   | The Elevation of the Venerable and Life-Creating Cross of the Lord:
quote:
The pagan Roman emperors tried to completely eradicate from human memory the holy places where our Lord Jesus Christ suffered and was resurrected for mankind. The Emperor Hadrian (117-138) gave orders to cover over the ground of Golgotha and the Sepulchre of the Lord, and to build a temple of the pagan goddess Venus and a statue of Jupiter.
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/september/sep-14.html#cross
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | The Cross is an "icon" of what Christ did/does through his death and resurrection.
I know where a piece of that cross is. But, while "matter matters" and that is special in its own way, "icons" are "windows" -- they provide "transperent" means to looking at what is unseen. We don't see Christ on the cross "doing it" but through a cross (even printed on cardboard) and through the liturgy -- the hymns and scripture readings, and prayers even that humble pulp becomes a window.
Icons and words and song and actions go together to form our worship, with the Spirit's help. (Any good Charismatic Church knows that -- and in the 70s we knew it well!)
We know where the true cross is. And undoubtedly, with greed and pride being what they are, there are lots of impostors too. And the Copts know where the real Ark of the Covenant is too.
But they are just "icons." And surely "matter matters" and our call is to redeem creation, sanctifying it in our worship and obedient work. But objects that are used in worship are just windows.
It is Christ's face that we see through them; and through the words of a hymn, and the music.
Anything that gets in the way should be taken down. (Overly fancy piano music during worship, maybe?  )
BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS TALK OF THE CROSS CAN BE.
I knew George Beverly Shea's brother and neice. He was a hell-raising kid in a small town. And the whole town held long prayer meetings for him, and for his friend -- who himself was a Bible prof. at Houghton when I taught there. George Beverly Shea is well known for singing "The Old Rugged Cross" at Billy Graham meetings.
When it is transperent, you can see heaven! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 2:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Patristic Commentary from the Catena Aurea on the Gospel of Cross Sunday http://www.arimathea.co.uk/markviii.htm
- Bede: After showing to His disciples the mystery of His passion and resurrection, He exhorts them, as well as the multitude, to follow the example of His passion. So, it continues; And when he had called the people to him with his disciples also, he said to them, Whosoever wishes to follow me, let him deny himself.
- Bede: ... we deny ourselves, when we avoid what we were before, and strive to reach the point to which we are newly called. And the cross is taken up by us, when either our body is pained by abstinence, or our soul afflicted by fellow-feeling for our neighbours.
The "real" cross is the one we "take up." | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/14/2004 2:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
I know where a piece of that cross is.
Are you being serious? Where is it?
quote:
We know where the true cross is. And undoubtedly, with greed and pride being what they are, there are lots of impostors too. And the Copts know where the real Ark of the Covenant is too.
All of these claims are very much suspect unless they can be produced for inspection. If they really did possess these relics, they would want to prove they have them by letting forensics experts study them.
Your other comments about worship, etc., while in and of themselves true, do not really speak to the question I raised. Indeed, if this were a farce (and in the total absence of any hard evidence, no one should be expected to believe these relics are in the possession of any church), the whole idea underlying the article you linked is found to be false.
Not that Christ did not truly die on a wooden cross, but the whole idea that some monks and/or soldiers dug up the actual cross of Christ and it is in the possession of a particular church or denomination, and that based on this we should set aside a feast day and make an icon in commemoration of this astounding archealogical find.
Bev Shea was truly a great singer and from what I've heard, a true Christian. I've been told I sound like him when I sing certain songs. 
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 2:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Yes, that is certainly true, and we also don't need a piece of the original cross to take up our own.
Another way of saying that is that not having a piece of the original one is no excuse!
LISTEN: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/i/lifthigh.htm
quote:
LIFT HIGH THE CROSS
Refrain
Lift high the cross, the love of Christ proclaim,
Till all the world adore His sacred Name.
Led on their way by this triumphant sign,
The hosts of God in conquering ranks combine.
Refrain
Each newborn servant of the Crucified
Bears on the brow the seal of Him Who died.
Refrain
O Lord, once lifted on the glorious tree,
As Thou hast promised, draw the world to Thee.
Refrain
So shall our song of triumph ever be:
Praise to the Crucified for victory.
Refrain
And as the Orthodox liturgy proclaims: "For by the Cross Joy came into the world!"
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Called to Suffer and Rejoice
To Finish the Aim of Christ's Afflictions
August 30, 1992
Colossians 1:24-29
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/92/083092.html
Amen! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Forefeast. Ode 5. The Irmos.
Send down you illumination upon us, Lord, loose us from the fog of offences, and grant us your peace.
Strengthen against destructive passions, O precious Cross, us who honour you and greet you, holiest symbol of the holy Passion.
Made bright today in hearts and soul with forms of fair things, let us the faithful advance, and worship the honoured and precious wood of the Cross.
Moses once sweetened the waters of Mara, symbolising with wood you, O precious Cross, through which you let fall drops of sweetness upon mortals.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Forefeast. Ode 6. The Irmos.
I have come to the depths of the sea, and a storm of many sins has drowned me; but as God lead my life back from corruption, as you love mankind.
As he hung on you, O Cross, the Creator was willingly pierced in the side and poured out blood and water, through which we who greet you with faith have been refashioned.
Life-endowed wood of the Cross, fount of immortality, redemption of the whole world, save us who greet you as our saving protection.
You have been given to us as an unbreakable weapon, through which we may overcome all the ambuscades of the adversaries, O divine Cross, we who reverently greet you in uprightness of soul.
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/13sep.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Forefeast. Ode 7. The Irmos.
Three youths in Babylon held the tyrant’s command as idle chatter, and in the midst of the fire they cried aloud: Blessed are you, the God of our fathers.
Jacob of old in blessing the children, foreshadowed you, O precious Cross; but we who now worship you, ever draw illumination.
Godly Moses with a rod prefigured you of old, O Cross, when he divided the sea; but we who now worship you, pass dryshod through the rough sea of passions.
As with heart and mouth we now embrace you, all-honoured Cross, we ever draw hallowing, health and salvation of soul and body.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:42 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Forefeast. Ode 8. The Irmos.
Almighty Redeemer of the universe, in your condescension you bedewed the devout Youths in the midst of the flame, and taught them to sing: All you his works, bless, praise the Lord.
We now worship the saving and unbreakable weapon, the ready help and mighty aid of the faithful, the Cross of the Lord, which is set out before us.
High on a tree Moses raised the serpent, as it is written, depicting you in advance, O honoured Tree, through which we are delivered from the harm of spiritual serpents.
Life-giving, honoured Cross, you have become the illumination of our souls; for by embracing you we rout with your divine power the principalities and authorities of darkness.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Exapostilarion.
Willingly raised on the Cross on Golgotha, the Lord has worked our salvation and renewed all creation; he was placed in a life-receiving grave and arose, as God, on the third day, the dedication of whose bright and holy rising we all celebrate with the ranks of the bodiless powers.
Another. To the same melody.
The Lord and God, willingly incarnate has worked salvation through the Cross in the midst of the earth for the renewal of the world; laid in a grave, he rose on the third day, and as an earnest of life, he shows forth his rising, whose dedication we celebrate in faith with the Angels of God.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:46 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Both now. The same Tone. By Monk John.
Christ, our God, you accepted your voluntary crucifixion for the general resurrection of the human race, and by the reed of the Cross you stained your own fingers with streams of scarlet dye, in your love for mankind signing our remission like a king. Do not despise us in our danger, nor our repeated separation from you; but take pity, O only long-suffering, on your people in distress; and arise, make war on those who war against us, as you alone are all-powerful.
Great Doxology, and Dismissal.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:47 PM (GMT -6) | | | I think we should dig up CS Lewis's bones and venerate them. Us Protestants need to get our idolatrous acts in gear! | | Back to Top | | |
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ataraxia
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 9/14/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | POW-
Your cut-and-pasting of material that is not your own is approaching the unbearability threshhold. When I suggested that a paragraph or two is acceptable, did I also have to explicitly state "every once in a while" also?
I'm begging you, please discuss issues in your own words at least 90% of the time. That's what we're about. You don't have to agree, but you have to abide. As hard as it might be for you to refrain from the habit of constantly posting material from other sites, I'm going to insist that you do so.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 5:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear ataraxia!
These posts, on this thread, were date-specific. Like peaches!
TODAY is September 14th. That is, THIS is the day that a huge percentage of Christianity celebrates through the remembrance of the founding of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem the finding and the identification of Christ's Cross by St. Helen. This is the Feast of the Exaltation of the True Cross!
They could not wait.
These posts comprise a sensitively selected sharing of mostly one of four rotating sections in the Feast's liturgy.
I read through and selected them as part of my evening devotions.
Please understand that.
They are here. I am done.
Others can look at them at their leasure. But it would not be good to just post a link (centuries old material) and let someone sink-or-swim. This was the best way.
BTW -- this material is "your own" when you make it so. Its worship material, and the common property of the Church. It is for the heart. So, of course it is "my own!" (I'm not being cheeky. This is a fact of the heart.)
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | I CERTAINLY agree with ataraxia in principle.
Yet, for these clips here, I cannot imagine anyone approaching a huge script whole with any hope or likelihood of coming away from with with anything personally valuable.
It was best to divide and separate them into their own posts, letting the reader select any one or two that offer a hand-hold.
I hope that some ONE of them is useful and valuable to some who come through this thread.
PoW
Best wishes to ataraxia; and I'll try.
(And here's wishing that everyone will understand.)
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ataraxia
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 9/14/2004 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
These posts, on this thread, were date-specific. Like peaches!
So tell people you ate some delicious peaches and tell them where you found them. Those who want to go pick their own peaches and eat are free to do so. Stop spoon feeding us.
quote:
TODAY is September 14th. That is, THIS is the day that a huge percentage of Christianity celebrates through the remembrance of the founding of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem the finding and the identification of Christ's Cross by St. Helen. This is the Feast of the Exaltation of the True Cross! They could not wait.
I didn't suggest you should have waited to copy and paste. I’m saying you should have not pasted but instead told us just what you in fact said. If you can say it to explain yourself, then just say it to begin with: “For those who are interested, today is the day that a huge percentage of Christianity celebrates through the remembrance of the founding of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem the finding and the identification of Christ's Cross by St. Helen. This is the Feast of the Exaltation of the True Cross! Here are a few links to worship related to this event [URL 1, 2, 3, and 4]. These were a blessing to me in my devotions” and leave it at that.
quote:
Others can look at them at their leasure.
That’s not why we’re here. We’re a discussion board. Not a bill board. An announcemtn of some special event is OK if its done SELDOMLY. But you overwhelm us.
quote:
But it would not be good to just post a link (centuries old material) and let someone sink-or-swim. This was the best way.
Trust me, it’s not the best way. Posting the links would be fine. If it’s worship material, then people won’t sink. I don’t want the worship service conducted right here online. Point people to it and leave it there.
quote:
Yet, for these clips here, I cannot imagine anyone approaching a huge script whole with any hope or likelihood of coming away from with with anything personally valuable.
Then have more confidence in peoples’ ability to read with profit from such sites.
In any event, you will bring such pasting to an end.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Ataraxia, why don't you make a place on this board for people such as POW to cut and paste material they want to share? This would make it easier for people to avoid those sections if they do not prefer to read the cut and paste material.
There seems to be a continual battle between the rules of this web site and POW's need to share his cut and paste material...
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2004 12:51 AM (GMT -6) | | I confine it to very few threads, and mainly one's that I begin my self with a focused goal.
Were I to not begin those threads they would not exist, and nobody could be posting there anyways. I'm not taking up anybody elses space.
If people don't like the topic, they are free to post and read eslewhere.
But when I post I have certain people in mind, and prize gleaning their response to what I selected. Like JEE to the "Evil" thread.
It is not true that such a thread could happen without "neutral" material -- material that is not mine and not his, that we can discussin common.
Maybe I should just go to another board.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2004 12:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I didn't suggest you should have waited to copy and paste. I’m saying you should have not pasted but instead told us just what you in fact said. If you can say it to explain yourself, then just say it to begin with: “For those who are interested, today is the day that a huge percentage of Christianity celebrates through the remembrance of the founding of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem the finding and the identification of Christ's Cross by St. Helen. This is the Feast of the Exaltation of the True Cross! Here are a few links to worship related to this event [URL 1, 2, 3, and 4]. These were a blessing to me in my devotions” and leave it at that.
But the poetic form carries tons of the maaning. The overlapping of ideas infuses what it captured in the liturgy.
Same can be said for images.
A picture IS NOT REDUCABLE TO A THOUSAND WORDS!
Not all discussion is reducable to the kind of exchange you describe.
Maybe I should go to another board.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/15/2004 1:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
I have an idea. Ataraxia, why don't you give POW his own special place to post his cut and paste material on this board? People would then be able to avoid the cut and paste section at their leisure while giving POW satisfaction of sharing his material. I have noticed that this seems to be a continual battle between the rules of this web site and POW's need to share his cut and paste material...
What do you think?
I'm right HERE quest. Don't talk about me in third person. (rude?)
Address your idea to me. Make it plain -- which it was not -- that you considered your idea to be a real one.
As it is, I confine my activity to a narrow portion of the board, leaving berth to other people and other discussions.
I do note, that duscussions I've begun have been very popular. That makes it APPEAR that I'm occupying a big part of the board. But as said above, the threads I posted on wouldn't even be there without my thinking them up. And I confine quotes and illustrations to them.
Anyone notice that?
PoW
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ataraxia
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 9/15/2004 1:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
POW: Maybe I should go to another board.
Sounds good to me. I think that is a good idea, POW, at least for a while. Take some time off from us and enjoy other boards.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/15/2004 1:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ataraxia
quote:
POW: Maybe I should go to another board.
Sounds good to me. I think that is a good idea, POW, at least for a while. Take some time off from us and enjoy other boards.
ataraxia
Artraxia, I've posted no further quotes, or pictures.
I've only discussed with you.
Yet you blocked my name.
When I grew up we donsidered that unfair and unjust. (We had a name for it.)
I posted THIS for JEE:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
God wills that there be evil. Although God did not create evil, God clearly wills, according to Christian scripture and tradition, that evil and sickedness exist. The fathers, interpreting scripture, make this subtle point by saying that though God does not eill evil metaphycisally, God certainly does will evil providentially. This is proven by God creating those he kew would be evil.
10
The argument assumes that which it needs to prove; i.e., that God knew with absolute certainty that moral evil would be chosen. Also, it a confusion of terms to say God "wills" something and yet does not cause that something. If my daughter disobeys me, I did not "will" her to disobey me, nor did I permit or allow her to disobey me; she has simply exercised her self-determining freedom. As you said, evil's origin is creaturely choice.
i wouild like to discuss this, JEE.
I have two short quotes from Hopko that I will post later, probably today.
I really want your input.
PoW
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