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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/3/2004 6:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I am not referring to multiple gods. I am speaking of the God of the bible. There are many instances which speak of God bringing about "evil" in the bible, even if He is not the agent, in order to meet His purposes.
is there an absolute standard of good and evil?
is something evil when i do it but good when god does it? if so, then that something is not absolutely evil.
if god commands me not to do it and yet does it herself, that's a schizophrenic and hypocritical god
I am still not sure if we are both speaking of the God of the bible. A person can find many passage in scripture that states God brought about "evil" (raa) in order to meet His purposes. For example, we do not question the justifiable act of killing the firstborn sons of the egyptians when God was freeing Israel from bondage. But, of course, we see the deplorable act of Herod ordering the death of all those male babies 2 years and younger. Both include the "evil" of killing, yet one is from God, the other from man, the same act is justifiable when done by God, but not when done by man. Was Israel sinning when they carried out God's command to destoy those nations in the promise land?
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/3/2004 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by borg
WickerMan, what is your definition of evil? And where do you think the moral code came from (from God or outside of God)? Does God ever call us to do something that He is not required to do?
i was browsing around CARM.org and came upon an exchange where someone else asked if God ever ordained rape
after some hemming and hawing, someone finally had the courage to plainly state the logical calvinist response:
quote:
God has ordained all of history and all events within that history, from the greatest of events (the murder of Christ) to the least of events (the thinning hairs on my head). All events that involve a person are events that involve a sinner, there is nothing where humanity is involved that it is not done through a sinner. And history happens to bring pleasure and glory to God, even the death of His Son and the number of hairs on my head.
Now why would a rape be any different than any other event within the whole of history? Say the murder of Christ, or the selling of Joseph into slavery, or the plagues that happen in Egypt, or a mother nursing a baby, or a young girl raped in the back country of Iran. All of these things have the same common denominator, they bring pleasure and glory to God and they are done by sinners.
Is this a simple enough answer for you yet?
Faith, Hope and Charity,
Tallen
so plainly, he says rape brings pleasure and glory to God and is done by sinners
now to us, rape is seen as evil and prohibited by god
so rape is wrong for us but brings pleasure and glory to god
which is why i asked, is there an absolute standard of evil and good?
evidently, calvinists say "no", there is no absolute standard of evil
if what's evil to us is not evil to god, then this is schizophrenic and hypocritical of god
if god adores rape, yet we abhor it, then evidently our moral code didn't come from god
To say that God takes pleasure in rape does not glorify Him. God does not take pleasure in sin. But who is to say that the person brought about through a rape may not be a person that God will use to spread His message of His salvation. Sin is sin, a person being raped by another person is just as much a sin as those involved in the death of Jesus Christ and no one complains about that. No one is trying to justified sin here. I am saying that God has a purpose for allowing sin to enter His creation.
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Let's see...God said, "Let us make man in our own image..." and God said ALL of his creation was "GOOD"...
But according to your view of mankind, Lock, instead of saying his creation of mankind was "Good," God should have instead said "OOOPS! Boy did I ever mess up!"
In addition to making a mockery of God's creative act, your view also indicts God as a tyrant, for requiring Adam to do that which He knew full well man COULD NOT do. The entire realm of morality becomes fodder for the cavils of skeptics.
Once again you are assuming that Adam was the fished product. God said it was good but HE didn't say it was finished. God did not mess up, He knew exactly what He was doing the whole time, unlike your view in that He did know what the outcome was going to be. If I am making a mockery of the creation in your eyes, I can live with that because I do not live to please men. Take the example of the law. God put it in place knowing full well that Israel or anyone else (with the exception of Jesus) would never be able to fulfill it (without the intervention of His holy spirit).
The OT view takes God's glory away from Him by assuming that when God uses a figure of speech (condescension)which gives Him human parts and emotions to help our feeble understanding, that in reality God is subject to human emotions. I would much rather be quilty in your eyes of downplaying creation, then downplaying the Creator and what He is capable of completing.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Let's see...God said, "Let us make man in our own image..." and God said ALL of his creation was "GOOD"...
But according to your view of mankind, Lock, instead of saying his creation of mankind was "Good," God should have instead said "OOOPS! Boy did I ever mess up!"
In addition to making a mockery of God's creative act, your view also indicts God as a tyrant, for requiring Adam to do that which He knew full well man COULD NOT do. The entire realm of morality becomes fodder for the cavils of skeptics.
quote:
Once again you are assuming that Adam was the fished product. God said it was good but HE didn't say it was finished. God did not mess up, He knew exactly what He was doing the whole time, unlike your view in that He did know what the outcome was going to be. If I am making a mockery of the creation in your eyes, I can live with that because I do not live to please men.
I never said Adam was "the finished product." That has never been my contention. My only contention has been that when God said to Him "Don't eat that!" God was not taunting Adam, He was totally serious, and he fully intended for Adam to obey.
quote:
Take the example of the law. God put it in place knowing full well that Israel or anyone else (with the exception of Jesus) would never be able to fulfill it (without the intervention of His holy spirit).
Actually, I agree that without the intervention and powerful influence of the Holy Spirit none could obey God. Even Jesus did what He did by the power of the Spirit, according to Scripture.
quote:
The OT view takes God's glory away from Him by assuming that when God uses a figure of speech (condescension)which gives Him human parts and emotions to help our feeble understanding, that in reality God is subject to human emotions. I would much rather be quilty in your eyes of downplaying creation, then downplaying the Creator and what He is capable of completing.
I honestly don't see how in your view God wasn't incorrect in saying his creation was "good." Saying his creation wasn't good directly contradicts the Bible:
Gen. 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it completely. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/4/2004 7:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The OT view takes God's glory away from Him by assuming that when God uses a figure of speech (condescension)which gives Him human parts and emotions to help our feeble understanding, that in reality God is subject to human emotions.
"Do not do this detestable thing that I hate!" (Jeremiah 44:4)
"Behold My Son, in whom I am well pleased." -- God
1. How are these "figures of speech"?
Use English grammar laws if necessary.
2. Explain what image of God we are made in.
3. Explain how Jesus, the very image of God (II Corinthians 4:4) didn't have emotions in light of all the emotions He exhibited in the gospels.
number two pencil, clock running | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/5/2004 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
The OT view takes God's glory away from Him by assuming that when God uses a figure of speech (condescension)which gives Him human parts and emotions to help our feeble understanding, that in reality God is subject to human emotions.
"Do not do this detestable thing that I hate!" (Jeremiah 44:4)
"Behold My Son, in whom I am well pleased." -- God
1. How are these "figures of speech"?
Use English grammar laws if necessary.
2. Explain what image of God we are made in.
3. Explain how Jesus, the very image of God (II Corinthians 4:4) didn't have emotions in light of all the emotions He exhibited in the gospels.
number two pencil, clock running
1. As I said earlier, the figure of speech I am referring to is condescension. God declares that He is not a man (Num. 23:19). With that established, God uses condescension, giving Himself human attributes to help humans understand Him by revealing Himself in terms that are within the range of human perception. For the sake of revelation God speaks of Himself as troubled, grieving, happy, satisfied, angry, even as having hate. God is not subjected to these human emotions, but He uses these descriptions (lowering Himself to human level) for our benefit that we might be able to grasp something about Him.
2. As I also said earlier, that the redemptive process is part of God's creation plan of forming man into His image. Adam was not the finished product. 1 Cor. 15 tells us that the natural comes first and then the spriritual. Adam was made flesh and blood (natural), Christ became a vivifying spirit (spiritual). Christ is the finished product, the perfect man. To say that Adam was the perfect man and all was messed up by the fall and sin, would be unbiblical.
3. Jesus, Who being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity and being found in the fashion of a human (Phil. 2:5-8).
Above we see the Jesus was the very image of God, and He had to empty Himself to become a man. The emotions He exhibited while here on earth were due to His taking part in flesh. And as JEE posted, Jesus was enpowered by holy spirit so that He was able to fulfill the law in His flesh and was obedient to death on the cross. Again, the example shows that Jesus is the perfect man and that He will lead us to glory (Heb. 2).
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/5/2004 1:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I never said Adam was "the finished product." That has never been my contention. My only contention has been that when God said to Him "Don't eat that!" God was not taunting Adam, He was totally serious, and he fully intended for Adam to obey.
And God fully intenended Israel to keep the law. There will be a day when Israel will keep the law and Adam will perfectly keep all of what God commands without missing the mark. That will be when they live in the finished product, a spiritual body. But while they, and we, are in the flesh we are unable to keep His commandments due to the weakness of the flesh.
quote:
honestly don't see how in your view God wasn't incorrect in saying his creation was "good." Saying his creation wasn't good directly contradicts the Bible:
Gen. 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it completely. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
Yes, it was good, and right where He wanted it to be for His creation plan which includes the redemptive process.
My question is that if Adam, in his original creative form before he sinned, would never die, what was the reason for having the tree of life in the garden?
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/5/2004 8:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
My question is that if Adam, in his original creative form before he sinned, would never die, what was the reason for having the tree of life in the garden?
This is only speculative, of course, but how I understand it is that Adam & Eve would have eventually had to eat from the tree of life in order to live forever. I do not believe Adam was created to live forever in physical body apart from divine sustenance (the Tree of Life). The Genesis story does not reveal how long the First Pair lived in Eden prior to the Fall, but it seems reasonable to me to think that they had only been there a relatively short while; if so, then they would not have needed to eat of the Tree of Life yet when they ate of the TOTKG&E.
Another possibility would be that they had in fact eaten of the Tree of Life prior to the Fall, and that God's eviction of them from the Garden was to ensure that they could no longer eat from that Tree and thus live forever.
Gen 3:22 ¶ Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 4:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
My question is that if Adam, in his original creative form before he sinned, would never die, what was the reason for having the tree of life in the garden?
This is only speculative, of course, but how I understand it is that Adam & Eve would have eventually had to eat from the tree of life in order to live forever. I do not believe Adam was created to live forever in physical body apart from divine sustenance (the Tree of Life). The Genesis story does not reveal how long the First Pair lived in Eden prior to the Fall, but it seems reasonable to me to think that they had only been there a relatively short while; if so, then they would not have needed to eat of the Tree of Life yet when they ate of the TOTKG&E.
Another possibility would be that they had in fact eaten of the Tree of Life prior to the Fall, and that God's eviction of them from the Garden was to ensure that they could no longer eat from that Tree and thus live forever.
Gen 3:22 ¶ Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
This is how I would see it also. God created Adam in flesh which is unable to live forever without divine influence, as seen in the tree of life.
My next question involving Gen 3 is the knowledge of good and evil necessary in our being in the image of God (v. 22 "Behold, the man is become like one of Us, to know good and evil")?
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/6/2004 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
For the sake of revelation God speaks of Himself as troubled, grieving, happy, satisfied, angry, even as having hate.
But He's really not? What is He then?
If these don't communicate to us what God says, what do they communicate?
quote:
God is not subjected to these human emotions
God is not a victim of His emotions, He has control over them, just like Jesus, the "image of God", had control over His emotions.
quote:
2. As I also said earlier, that the redemptive process is part of God's creation plan of forming man into His image.
Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 God created man in His own image*, in the image of God He created him*; male and female He created them*.
*past tense
Created in the image of God means, created in the image of God.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
Created in the image of God when? "In the day when God created man"
quote:
3. Jesus, Who being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity and being found in the fashion of a human (Phil. 2:5-8).
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
2 Corinthians 4:4 "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But He's really not? What is He then?
If these don't communicate to us what God says, what do they communicate?
He is God. God uses condescension in order to help our human understanding.
quote:
God is not a victim of His emotions, He has control over them, just like Jesus, the "image of God", had control over His emotions.
You cannot use Jesus in this discussion. As I pointed out before that Jesus has to empty Himself in order to become a man. Jesus was subject to human emotions when He was in the flesh. Do you believe that God has always been and forever will be in flesh?
quote:
Created in the image of God when? "In the day when God created man"
If Adam was created the "finished product", then he would not have been created in the flesh. We see that the natural comes first and then the spriritual. Christ, the last Adam, is the finished product becoming a vivifying spirit.
quote:
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Verse 10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father and the Father is in me, or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."
This speaks of Christ being the annoited of God, as evidenced by the works Jesus did through the holy spirit of God. Once again do you believe that God has always been and forever will be in flesh and subjected to it?
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 9/7/2004 1:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
If these don't communicate to us what God says, what do they communicate?
He is God. God uses condescension in order to help our human understanding.
When God says "I am well pleased", what does this communicate?
Where's the "figure" in this speech?
quote:
You cannot use Jesus in this discussion. As I pointed out before that Jesus has to empty Himself in order to become a man. Jesus was subject to human emotions when He was in the flesh.
"subject to" human emotions? Emotions are neutral, we just have them.
You can lose control of your emotions and sin, or control your emotions like Jesus (the image of God) did and not sin.
When Jesus tells His disciples "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", we can use Jesus in this discussion.
quote:
If Adam was created the "finished product", then he would not have been created in the flesh. We see that the natural comes first and then the spriritual. Christ, the last Adam, is the finished product becoming a vivifying spirit.
Scripture doesn't say made as an "unfinished" product. Scripture says "made in the image of God".
Adam didn't need to be redeemed until after he had sinned.
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God
James 3:
8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
God created man in His image.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
God created Jesus in His image.
Jesus is not in the flesh now, but when He was on earth, He said, "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father".
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lock
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| Posted 9/7/2004 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Scripture doesn't say made as an "unfinished" product. Scripture says "made in the image of God".
Adam didn't need to be redeemed until after he had sinned.
Adam was created flesh and blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit an allotment in the kingdom of God. The fist Adam was natural, the last Adam became a vivifying spirit (1 Cor. 15). I did not make up the contradiction between Adam and Christ, the bible did. Adam was incapable of becoming a vivifying spirit due to the inability of the flesh. When the bible states that Jesus is the image of the invisible God this does not only apply to His life on earth when He was in the flesh. It applies to Him before He emptied himself (Phil 2:5-8)and as well to when He was glorified after the ressurrection due to His obedience(Hebrews 1-2). Jesus was subjected to human emotions while in the flesh. God is not subjected to human emotions because He is not in flesh, He is spirit, invisible, unperceptable. Jesus (the image of God) always leads us to the Father. That is why Jesus is the mediator between God and man. Again, you cannot use Jesus as an example, while He was in the flesh, as proof that God is subject to emotions.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 9/7/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
When the bible states that Jesus is the image of the invisible God this does not only apply to His life on earth when He was in the flesh. It applies to Him before He emptied himself (Phil 2:5-8)and as well to when He was glorified after the ressurrection due to His obedience(Hebrews 1-2). Jesus was subjected to human emotions while in the flesh. God is not subjected to human emotions because He is not in flesh, He is spirit, invisible, unperceptable.
Using emotional language, "subjected to human emotions", to make God appear a victim if He has emotions does not prove God doesn't have emotions. Emotions are not bad things as your language of victimhood, tries to prove. Lack of control of emotions is what's bad. Jesus, the image of God while on earth, controlled His emotions.
Jesus, on earth, wasn't the only human made in God's image, I've posted enough verses that show ALL PEOPLE are made in God's image.
These verses don't qualify that "created in God's image" as you do. They just state plainly, humans are made in God's image.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 9/7/2004 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
God is not subjected to human emotions. He uses descriptions like these to help our human understanding understand Him and His ways
Having emotions doesn't necessarily mean "subjected to human emotions". You're using the language of victimhood.
Emotions are neutral. If you don't control them, they can cause harm, if you do control them, they can be cause for good.
Jesus, the image of God while here on earth, had control over His emotions.
Jesus, seated at the right hand of God, is NOT an image of God because we can't see Him now. Only when He was on earth could people SEE Him and write about what He was like.
Jesus, WHILE ON EARTH, was the image of God.
BEFORE He was crucified and resurrected, His disciples said "show us the Father" and Jesus replied, "if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father".
Man is made in God's image.
Gen 1:27
1 Corinthians 11:7
James 3:9
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 9/7/2004 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters-
and yet you deny the basic statement of God that He is not a man (Num. 23:19). I do not believe that Jesus was the image of God only when He was on the earth. We personally may not see Jesus, but Phillip saw Him standing at the right hand of God just before He died. If you want your god to be controlled by human emotions, that is your choice.
God is not a man. Man is made in the image of God.
Jesus was also the image of God while here on earth.
All three are scriptural.
Dick is a human, Jane is a human, they are made in the image of each other, mind, will, emotions, yet they are separate, different people.
You understand the distinction between type/class and instantiation of a type/class, don't you?
Having emotions doesn't make one "controlled by human emotions".
You are using emotional language to try and validate an invalid point.
God exercises Godly control over His emotions.
Human are to exercise godly control over their emotions.
God agapes and wants humans to agape as well.
That's one of the reasons why we can have a 'relationship' with God, because we're made in His image with an ability to communicate with each other.
Isaiah 1:18 "'Come now, and let us reason together,' Says the LORD"
quote:
I for one will believe the basic statement of the Bible that God is not a man.
And continue to deny all the scripture that says man is made in God's image and that Jesus was the image of God while here on earth.
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God
James 3:
8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/7/2004 8:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | "if you want your god," Lock, I assume we are all Christians here. I would suggest you simply disagree, rather than take a position that implies that those of us who disagree with you have ulterior motives for our disagreements, rather than simply a different interpretation of scripture. Great persons of God have disagreed on many things throughout church history, yet believed in the same God. | | Back to Top | | |
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