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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/31/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Satan didn't pull a fast one on God. FREEWILL was what God created to give us a choice to choose to accept or not accept God's love. God still decides to allow sin to exist in order for us to have the freedom in our choices.
What I love is how God fooled Satan by dying on the cross. I love meditating on that one. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/31/2004 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quest where does the bible back free will to that end? and where does the Word say that Satan was "tricked" at the death of Christ? Does God ever ordain sin?
"Man is nothing. He hath a free will and that free will is to go to hell until the Lord worketh in Him to will His good pleasure."-- Whitefield
"If any doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learned Jesus Christ aright."-- Luther
"No one can come to the Father unless the Father so draw Him... All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me and I will by no means cast him out..." John 6:37, 44, 65
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/31/2004 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The idea that Satan snuck into the garden behind God's back and tricked Adam and Eve into sinning and thus ruining God's creation instead of assuming that God might have a purpose for sin entering into the picture, be-litte God somewhat?
Doesn't the idea that God knew Adam and Eve would disobey and yet then acts surprised when He finds out make Him out to be disingenuous?
quote:
Gen. 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, ‘Where are you?’ 10He said, ‘I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.’ 11He said, ‘Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?’ 12The man said, ‘The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.’ 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, ‘What is this that you have done?’ The woman said, ‘The serpent tricked me, and I ate.’
That said, I don't believe, as you have tried to caricaturize it, that "Satan snuck into the garden behind God's back," etc. In the OV paradigm that I hold to, God had full knowledge of the Serpent's whereabouts and activities all the while.
Does God have a purpose for sin? What might that be? Sin is nothing but moral insanity.
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 8/31/2004 7:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quest where does the bible back free will to that end? and where does the Word say that Satan was "tricked" at the death of Christ? Does God ever ordain sin?
Let me explain what I was writing. God allowed Satan to roam about the earth, and still does. God gives freedom for people to choose and in so doing they are free to choose to love or not. God did not create robots but rather created us in his own image.
Satan was tricked because he thought that he would be able to kill God. God allowed the death of Christ in order that Christ's resurrection from the dead would save the world. God triumphed through Satan's evil scheme to kill Christ.
God used Satan's deception and evil for the good.
"God uses everything for the good for those who love him."
God does NOT ordain evil but God does work on our behalf.
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feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/31/2004 7:49 PM (GMT -6) | | | If people can't defeat something they exaggerate it so out of proportion, call it that and claim victory. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/1/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That said, I don't believe, as you have tried to caricaturize it, that "Satan snuck into the garden behind God's back," etc. In the OV paradigm that I hold to, God had full knowledge of the Serpent's whereabouts and activities all the while.
If God had full knowledge of Satan's whereabouts and intentions, and did not stop him, then He allowed sin to enter into His creation; right?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/1/2004 6:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
That said, I don't believe, as you have tried to caricaturize it, that "Satan snuck into the garden behind God's back," etc. In the OV paradigm that I hold to, God had full knowledge of the Serpent's whereabouts and activities all the while.
If God had full knowledge of Satan's whereabouts and intentions, and did not stop him, then He allowed sin to enter into His creation; right?
He allowed the ability to choose, but to say that "he allowed sin" would be inaccurate. That would be like saying a parent "allows" their child to disobey them. The simple fact is, the child has free will, not (necessarily) "the parent ALLOWS the child to disobey." (I realize some parents do in fact ALLOW their kids to get away with anything, but I'm talking about a parent who is determined to bring out the BEST in their child, like God is).
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/1/2004 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Satan was tricked because he thought that he would be able to kill God. God allowed the death of Christ in order that Christ's resurrection from the dead would save the world. God triumphed through Satan's evil scheme to kill Christ.
Acts 4:27 "For of a truth, in this city were gathered against Thy holy Son Jesus, Whom Thou dost anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the nations and the people of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel designates beforehand to occur."
God did not have to trick Satan. Those who crucified Christ did all that which God had disignated beforehand to occur.
[quote]God does NOT ordain evil but God does work on our behalf.
If you are speaking of moral evil, which basically is sin, then I would agree. But evil is not always sin. There are many instances in the bible where God brings "evil" about in order to complete His purposes. In Is. 45:7 God declares that He creates evil. I do not believe that man can be evil without sinning, but being that God does not sin and yet brings about justifiable evil, tells me that not all evil is sin.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/1/2004 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
That said, I don't believe, as you have tried to caricaturize it, that "Satan snuck into the garden behind God's back," etc. In the OV paradigm that I hold to, God had full knowledge of the Serpent's whereabouts and activities all the while.
If God had full knowledge of Satan's whereabouts and intentions, and did not stop him, then He allowed sin to enter into His creation; right?
He allowed the ability to choose, but to say that "he allowed sin" would be inaccurate. That would be like saying a parent "allows" their child to disobey them. The simple fact is, the child has free will, not (necessarily) "the parent ALLOWS the child to disobey." (I realize some parents do in fact ALLOW their kids to get away with anything, but I'm talking about a parent who is determined to bring out the BEST in their child, like God is).
If I follow this reasoning, I would have to say God created man with free will, expecting man to always not sin and to make the right choices. Then it would follow that sin caught God off-guard, because He wasn't expecting it.
quote:
but to say that "he allowed sin" would be inaccurate.
As you stated, God knew of Satan's whereabouts and his intentions, so either God choose to let sin enter creation with the possibility of having a purpose for it or He was unable to stop it. Which one is it?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/1/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by lock
If you are speaking of moral evil, which basically is sin, then I would agree. But evil is not always sin. There are many instances in the bible where God brings "evil" about in order to complete His purposes. In Is. 45:7 God declares that He creates evil. I do not believe that man can be evil without sinning, but being that God does not sin and yet brings about justifiable evil, tells me that not all evil is sin.
So you're saying there is no absolute, objective standard of evil?
i.e. Evil done by us is bad, evil done by a god is good.
Wicker Man-
I am not referring to multiple gods. I am speaking of the God of the bible. There are many instances which speak of God bringing about "evil" in the bible, even if He is not the agent, in order to meet His purposes. It is only an assumption to think that evil has to be sin. But it is evident in the bible that God does not sin and yet it states that He brings evil about. So either it is a contradiction or the evil that God brings about (which is always justifiable) is not sin. I do not believe that man in his fleshy state is capable of doing evil without sinning.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/1/2004 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
That said, I don't believe, as you have tried to caricaturize it, that "Satan snuck into the garden behind God's back," etc. In the OV paradigm that I hold to, God had full knowledge of the Serpent's whereabouts and activities all the while.
If God had full knowledge of Satan's whereabouts and intentions, and did not stop him, then He allowed sin to enter into His creation; right?
He allowed the ability to choose, but to say that "he allowed sin" would be inaccurate. That would be like saying a parent "allows" their child to disobey them. The simple fact is, the child has free will, not (necessarily) "the parent ALLOWS the child to disobey." (I realize some parents do in fact ALLOW their kids to get away with anything, but I'm talking about a parent who is determined to bring out the BEST in their child, like God is).
If I follow this reasoning, I would have to say God created man with free will, expecting man to always not sin and to make the right choices.
Yes, of course:
Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
If man was created in the image of God, then it follows that God did not expect/wish/allow/foreordain that man would ever sin. Why would God create such a wonderful being as mankind if his eventual sinning were in fact inevitable? When God says, "Don't do this, or you'll die!" it sure seems clear to me that he means, "Don't do this, or you'll die," even in the original Hebrew.  Do you honestly believe Adam and Even couldn't help themselves, and HAD to sin?
Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is not clear to me how in the above admonition, God wasn't strongly implying that he firmly expected Adam to live in happy, submissive obedience to his Father all his days.
quote:
Then it would follow that sin caught God off-guard, because He wasn't expecting it.
Not "off guard," for I affirm that God knew the possibility existed that man would sin, and I affirm the fact that God's knowledge extends to "the very thoughts and intents of the heart," and thus He obviously knew what Adam & Eve were contemplating. However, the narrative of God's reaction to their sin when He confronted them, with "what have you done?" seems to strongly imply that God was very displeased with them for sinning, and that they could have chosen to obey God instead of disobey, if they WOULD have.
quote:
but to say that "he allowed sin" would be inaccurate.
quote:
As you stated, God knew of Satan's whereabouts and his intentions, so either God choose to let sin enter creation with the possibility of having a purpose for it or He was unable to stop it. Which one is it?
There is yet another possibility to the question you pose--in his wisdom, God created the world in such a way that moral agents would be exposed to temptation (with the possibility of sinning), in order to see who would freely chose to love and serve Him and who would not.
What do you think is God's purpose for sin? I honestly don't think it has a purpose except to say that its possibility is necessary to moral probation.
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lock
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| Posted 9/1/2004 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Do you honestly believe Adam and Even couldn't help themselves, and HAD to sin?
I believe what the bible says.
Romans 8:7,8 (CLNT) "The disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God."
also in verse 20, we are told that the creation was subject to vanity by God.
Adam was created flesh and blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. If Adam was the finished product then he would have been created a spirit, not fleshy. The redemptive process is a part of the creation of man, forming man into the image of God. When Adam knew good and evil God said he is now like us, knowing good and evil (Gen. 3:22). You are assuming that Adam was created the finished product and God had to start over again when sin slipped in and this is not what the bible teaches. Jesus is the final product, the perfect man and we are in Christ.
Man is free to make choices, but due to the weakness of the flesh he is incapable of fully obeying God and yes, God crated him this way. If you believe that man is capable of choosing not to sin, then why has no one(with the exception of Christ) lived a perfect life always making the right decisions? What causes man to sin?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/1/2004 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
I believe what the bible says.
Romans 8:7,8 (CLNT) "The disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God."
This is certainly true after the Fall.
quote:
Adam was created flesh and blood. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. If Adam was the finished product then he would have been created a spirit, not fleshy. The redemptive process is a part of the creation of man, forming man into the image of God. When Adam knew good and evil God said he is now like us, knowing good and evil (Gen. 3:22). You are assuming that Adam was created the finished product and God had to start over again when sin slipped in and this is not what the bible teaches. Jesus is the final product, the perfect man and we are in Christ.
It is generally agreed that prior to him sinning, Adam's faculties were perfect and unimpaired by the effects of sin, and that he was designed perfectly able obey God, if he were willing. The "weakness of the flesh" is true of everyone after the Fall.
quote:
Man is free to make choices, but due to the weakness of the flesh he is incapable of fully obeying God and yes, God crated him this way. If you believe that man is capable of choosing not to sin, then why has no one(with the exception of Christ) lived a perfect life always making the right decisions? What causes man to sin?
I talked about this earlier in one of the threads. Briefly, I affirm that because of the Fall, all of Adam's posterity are subject physical depravity, which assures that all will in fact personally choose selfishly (to sin) as soon as they are able to (when they reach the age of accountability).
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 6:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
that's a schizophrenic and hypocritical god
There seems to be a lot of those around, nowadays.  | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/2/2004 1:06 PM (GMT -6) | | If Christ was ordained before the foundation of the world, if He was with the Father before time began, and assuming as such that the Spirit as well was around; how would the two parts of the God-head fulfilled their offices had man never fallen? If Christ's position is Mediator, Savior, Redeemer, Priest, Messiah, etc. how could He have fulfilled these offices if the world had never fallen? Would He be a void "unglorified" part of the God-head?
hmm...
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/2/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
WickerMan, what is your definition of evil? And where do you think the moral code came from (from God or outside of God)?
Not WickerMan, but the moral law/code is a revelation of how God acts, and how all moral agents are obligated to act. Anything that does not conform to this perfect will of God is SIN. It is a revelation of God's own character, or else the scriptural command, "as He who has called you is holy, even so be ye holy in all your conduct."
1 Pet. 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
quote:
Does God ever call us to do something that He is not required to do?
Not if we are speaking of voluntary moral actions. Jesus says be ye therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect. God never calls us to possess his natural attributes (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc.), but he certainly does expect us to bear his image in this world and be like him morally.
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the Wicker Man
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| Posted 9/3/2004 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
WickerMan, what is your definition of evil? And where do you think the moral code came from (from God or outside of God)? Does God ever call us to do something that He is not required to do?
i was browsing around CARM.org and came upon an exchange where someone else asked if God ever ordained rape
after some hemming and hawing, someone finally had the courage to plainly state the logical calvinist response:
quote:
God has ordained all of history and all events within that history, from the greatest of events (the murder of Christ) to the least of events (the thinning hairs on my head). All events that involve a person are events that involve a sinner, there is nothing where humanity is involved that it is not done through a sinner. And history happens to bring pleasure and glory to God, even the death of His Son and the number of hairs on my head.
Now why would a rape be any different than any other event within the whole of history? Say the murder of Christ, or the selling of Joseph into slavery, or the plagues that happen in Egypt, or a mother nursing a baby, or a young girl raped in the back country of Iran. All of these things have the same common denominator, they bring pleasure and glory to God and they are done by sinners.
Is this a simple enough answer for you yet?
Faith, Hope and Charity,
Tallen
so plainly, he says rape brings pleasure and glory to God and is done by sinners
now to us, rape is seen as evil and prohibited by god
so rape is wrong for us but brings pleasure and glory to god
which is why i asked, is there an absolute standard of evil and good?
evidently, calvinists say "no", there is no absolute standard of evil
if what's evil to us is not evil to god, then this is schizophrenic and hypocritical of god
if god adores rape, yet we abhor it, then evidently our moral code didn't come from god
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/3/2004 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quest i was looking for Biblical answers to my questions. Where does the Bible say that we have free will to that end? Where does the Bible say that Satan was tricked? Does God ever ordain sin?
borg
I do not have the time to read through the entire thread but I do want to answer the questions you asked, Borg.
God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree but the one -- to me that is implying that they had the ability to eat from the forbidden tree. They could choose to disobey God. That to me is freewill.
Satan was "tricked" (bad choice on my part in wording) Why do you think the evil works of mankind put Christ to death if Satan had known that by so doing mankind would be set free from the bondage of sin? It looks to me as though Satan played right into the redemptive plan without knowing that by so doing he would be sabatoging evils goal.
God does NOT ordain sin but God does allow for freewill. When we choose evil -- sin results. God says "Choose life and live" | | Back to Top | | |
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