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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 4:16 AM (GMT -6) |   | Evil in Our World Today
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2002/synergy.cfm
SEE HOPKO'S REMARKS. AND BE PREPARED TO HAVE TO THINK A WHILE.
Sin L. posted a long article that has noting to do with the topic of this thread, please allow me to post the salient portion of what I liked this thread to. Thanks!
quote:
Fr. Hopko contrasted God and His creation as they relate to evil. "God is the Creator," and "everything God creates is good." In fact, God Himself "is good in a way beyond human imagining." All things "beyond [God] are creatures, from which evil comes. Evil is a lack of good…and has no substantial existence." It is also "the misuse and abuse of good," Fr. Hopko pointed out, "the constant destruction and perversion of what is good." Furthermore, as Dr. Chryssavgis later related, "Evil is against life and is all that opposes life." In fact, "the word 'evil' is 'live' spelled backwards."
"God knew His creatures would be evil," Fr. Hopko continued. "However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway. Evil originates "when creatures think they have choices." They "refuse to give glory and thanks to God" because they prefer to "worship the creature rather than the Creator." (This was "the sin of Adam," who chose "to live life without God").
Ultimately, Fr. Hopko deduced, "the only choice is: Thy will be done. The more we [live] in Christ, the less choice we have, [but] the freer we become. Jesus has no choice at all, [yet] He is totally free and knows the truth."
"God [Christ] entered the world as it is with all of its evil and destruction," Dr. Chryssavgis confirmed, but "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." Thankfully, "good (love) conquers evil, and suffering through evil leads to new life."
Will evil last forever? "Yes," the Scriptures say. However, evil can have a purpose. "All acts of tragedy are meant to get people's attention for repentance," Fr. Hopko affirmed. "God does not will evil or death," but He does use them, if necessary. "Wickedness and evil are the only things God has in this era of evil."
Interesting ideas. And very related to discussions we have had on this board!
They are challenging notions, and ones that take me a while to think about.
I'm sure that they will prompt discussion!
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
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Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/14/2004 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | (copy)
Leviathan-
No cut-and-pasting entire articles please. POW lives on the line, constantly cut-and-pasting material from other sites. A thought or paragraph is fine, but not large amounts. Your Ankerberg articles, Leviathan, is just such an example as well of how NOT to bring information gained from other sites.
If you can't summarize it in your own words, don't bring it up. It's just laziness. Post the URL if you feel you can't summarize it all.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 6:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"God knew His creatures would be evil," Fr. Hopko continued. "However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway.
Hopko explains in a chapter in a book to Ware's honor (A "Festscrift" to the occassion of Ware's retirement from Oxford University in England!) that it is because of Love that God created even those he knew would do evil. To not do that, Hopko points out, would make God no better than the sinners.
This is an EMMENSE idea that is difficult for me to get my mind around even! But look at it.
God created everyone because he loves us. Loves us so much that he both died for us, and will not leave us alone in our sin. He keeps after us. That's the Father's love.
Go look at the few comments by Hopko on this topic, and consider them.
PoW
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/14/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
"God knew His creatures would be evil," Fr. Hopko continued. "However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway.
Hopko explains in a chapter in a book to Ware's honor (A "Festscrift" to the occassion of Ware's retirement from Oxford University in England!) that it is because of Love that God created even those he knew would do evil. To not do that, Hopko points out, would make God no better than the sinners.
This is an EMMENSE idea that is difficult for me to get my mind around even! But look at it.
God created everyone because he loves us. Loves us so much that he both died for us, and will not leave us alone in our sin. He keeps after us. That's the Father's love.
Go look at the few comments by Hopko on this topic, and consider them.
PoW
While I find much to agree with in the article, I am at a loss as to why Hopko would feel constrained to say "God commands evil." In context, it seems he is equivocating. It is of course true that God sometimes creates/fashions calamity (always for a benevolent purpose). However, if God knew with absolute certainty that Satan would choose to rebel and consequently wreak moral havoc upon God's GOOD creation, then all evil (even moral evil/sin) is God's act, for God created such a being with definite knowledge of how that being would choose. Satan had no real choice in the matter, for the future was already DEFINITE prior to God's creative act. Again, if traditional foreknowledge (as Hopko seems to subscribe to) were the case, then it would by definition follow that God is fully responsible for all that subsequent acts resulting from the initial act of creation.
The fact that Holy Scripture itself indicates that the future is to a certain extent open to change, and the fact that Holy Scripture does NOT plainly reveal that which Hopko assumes (exhaustive definite foreknowledge) should give pause to the thoughtful reader.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
The fact that Holy Scripture itself indicates that the future is to a certain extent open to change, and the fact that Holy Scripture does NOT plainly reveal that which Hopko assumes (exhaustive definite foreknowledge) should give pause to the thoughtful reader. [/font=Book Antiqua] [/size=3]
But a "thoughtful" opentheist -- rather than a fundamentalist OT (I could JEE in the "thoughtful" camp) will look at the issues as layed out, and compare them to scripture -- as JEE has begun to do -- rather than use OT presuppositions as "authorative."
GOOD. This is a beginning.
There are finer distinctions to be made. And I have benifit of a larger text in a book. But lets see what discussion springs from this.
Good job, JEE!!!
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Proposition:
"God knew His creatures would be evil," Fr. Hopko continued. "However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway."
Only other possibility: Not creating them at all. Not loving them. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
However, if God knew with absolute certainty that Satan would choose to rebel and consequently wreak moral havoc upon God's GOOD creation, then all evil (even moral evil/sin) is God's act, for God created such a being with full knowledge of how that being would choose. Satan had no real choice in the matter, for the future was already DEFINITE prior to God's creative act. Again, if traditional foreknowledge (as Hopko seems to subscribe to) were the case, then it would by definition follow that God is fully responsible for all that has transpired as a direct result of his creative act.
"The Fall of Satan" is not clearly taught in scripture. Not everyone agrees that Ez. 28 is speaking of Satan.
But, John 8:44 tells us that Satan is the father of lies, and 1 John 3:8 tells us that Satan "sinned from the beginning". The Greek does not have an article, so this is not saying "the" beginning, it speaks of a general beginning, possibly Satan's beginning. Job 26:13 speaks of the spirit of God fashioning the crooked serpent.
2 Chronicles 18:22 "the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets"
The lying spirit was from God. Does this make God a liar? God forbid. But it is an example of God using "evil" in order to meet His purpose. God's purpose at the time was to fulfill what He had declared upon the house of Ahab.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
"God [Christ] entered the world as it is with all of its evil and destruction," Dr. Chryssavgis confirmed, but "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." Thankfully, "good (love) conquers evil, and suffering through evil leads to new life."
I would be interested in knowing who placed this curse that prevents love? Is the devil not free to love if he so choose.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
However, if God knew with absolute certainty that Satan would choose to rebel and consequently wreak moral havoc upon God's GOOD creation, then all evil (even moral evil/sin) is God's act, for God created such a being with full knowledge of how that being would choose. Satan had no real choice in the matter, for the future was already DEFINITE prior to God's creative act. Again, if traditional foreknowledge (as Hopko seems to subscribe to) were the case, then it would by definition follow that God is fully responsible for all that has transpired as a direct result of his creative act.
"The Fall of Satan" is not clearly taught in scripture. Not everyone agrees that Ez. 28 is speaking of Satan.
But, John 8:44 tells us that Satan is the father of lies, and 1 John 3:8 tells us that Satan "sinned from the beginning". The Greek does not have an article, so this is not saying "the" beginning, it speaks of a general beginning, possibly Satan's beginning. Job 26:13 speaks of the spirit of God fashioning the crooked serpent.
2 Chronicles 18:22 "the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets"
The lying spirit was from God. Does this make God a liar? God forbid. But it is an example of God using "evil" in order to meet His purpose. God's purpose at the time was to fulfill what He had declared upon the house of Ahab.
Good point, Lock.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
"God [Christ] entered the world as it is with all of its evil and destruction," Dr. Chryssavgis confirmed, but "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." Thankfully, "good (love) conquers evil, and suffering through evil leads to new life."
I would be interested in knowing who placed this curse that prevents love? Is the devil not free to love if he so choose.
Seeme to me, that the word "curse" here refers to a state, and not being on the receiving end of anything done by another. So, seems to me, this is not something "placed." But, rather, as Dr. Chryssavgis says it, "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." That's like saying "I am sick because I have lymphoma." There is neither a before after nor a giver-receiver, except that sin is something we do to ourselves and those whom we are in community with.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
God wills that there be evil. Although God did not create evil, God clearly wills, according to Christian scripture and tradition, that evil and sickedness exist. The fathers, interpreting scripture, make this subtle point by saying that though God does not eill evil metaphycisally, God certainly does will evil providentially. This is proven by God creating those he kew would be evil.
10
The argument assumes that which it needs to prove; i.e., that God knew with absolute certainty that moral evil would be chosen. Also, it a confusion of terms to say God "wills" something and yet does not cause that something. If my daughter disobeys me, I did not "will" her to disobey me, nor did I permit or allow her to disobey me; she has simply exercised her self-determining freedom. As you said, evil's origin is creaturely choice.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
"God [Christ] entered the world as it is with all of its evil and destruction," Dr. Chryssavgis confirmed, but "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." Thankfully, "good (love) conquers evil, and suffering through evil leads to new life."
I would be interested in knowing who placed this curse that prevents love? Is the devil not free to love if he so choose.
Seeme to me, that the word "curse" here refers to a state, and not being on the receiving end of anything done by another. So, seems to me, this is not something "placed." But, rather, as Dr. Chryssavgis says it, "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." That's like saying "I am sick because I have lymphoma." There is neither a before after nor a giver-receiver, except that sin is something we do to ourselves and those whom we are in community with.
cursed
curs·ed [kúrs#601;d, kurst]
adj
1. having been wished evil: afflicted with harm thought to result from a curse
2. wicked or hateful: evil to the point of being despicable
3. annoying or frustrating: stubborn to the point of causing irritation or annoyance (informal)
Your right POW, curse can be a state of being wicked or hateful.
But why use the word "can't" love instead of "don't" love? The word "can't" seems to imply that God has somehow prevented love.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
The argument assumes that which it needs to prove; i.e., that God knew with absolute certainty that moral evil would be chosen. Also, it a confusion of terms to say God "wills" something and yet does not cause that something. If my daughter disobeys me, I did not "will" her to disobey me, nor did I permit or allow her to disobey me. As you said, evil's origin is creaturely choice.
As to wills verses causes, this by Evdokimov on Predestination is useful. See RED and blue:
quote:
Predestination
(From: “IN THE WORLD, OF THE CHURCH”, by Paul Evdokimov, SVSP)
quote:
For the Eastern Church, God is never the primary cause, but the Creator. It is creation "in the image" of the Creator which places the "second freedom" outside any causal determinism, and the patristic conception of humankind as autexousia, self authoritative, rightly defines its mysterious capacity to transcend every necessity and the very condition of the creature over against divine freedom: to see oneself as microtheos, as God-in-miniature
Then in blue:
quote:
One can even say that God, the Lover of humankind, is much more determined himself by his creation and his covenants than the creature by his Creator: "The Lord has sworn and he will not change his mind" (Ps 110:4). The Incarnation appears as God's reply to his own promise: the divinizing of his creature. The fall of man reveals the titanic fullness of our freedom, which in turn, determines our own destiny. . . .What is more, our salvation determines the shape of the Incarnation as Love crucified. Divine blood has been shed to safeguard our freedom in grace, for, according to the Fathers' saying, "God is not able to force anyone tolove him."
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ataraxia
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Leviathan and POW-
No cut-and-pasting entire articles please. POW lives on the line, constantly cut-and-pasting material from other sites. A thought or paragraph is fine, but not large amounts. Your Ankerberg article, Leviathan, was just such an example as well of how NOT to bring over information from other sites.
If you can't summarize it in your own words, don't bring it up. It's just laziness 99% of the time. Post the URL if you feel you can't summarize it all.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Your right POW, curse can be a state of being wicked or hateful.
But why use the word "can't" love instead of "don't" love? The word "can't" seems to imply that God has somehow prevented love.
Hey, I can hargly thpell werds. I'm not go-na pick tith small stuph. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ataraxia
Leviathan and POW-
No cut-and-pasting entire articles please. POW lives on the line, constantly cut-and-pasting material from other sites. A thought or paragraph is fine, but not large amounts. Your Ankerberg articles, Leviathan, is just such an example as well of how NOT to bring information gained from other sites.
If you can't summarize it in your own words, don't bring it up. It's just laziness. Post the URL if you feel you can't summarize it all.
ataraxia
Thanks, A.
Evdokimov is elsewhere on this board.
I'll try my hardest not to.
I like taking things in very small portions, and then discussing them before moving on.
BTW -- I life in Illinois, not "online." Tuesday is my day off. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Your right POW, curse can be a state of being wicked or hateful.
But why use the word "can't" love instead of "don't" love? The word "can't" seems to imply that God has somehow prevented love.
Hey, I can hargly thpell werds. I'm not go-na pick tith small stuph.
I will help you out: True love comes from God, once you choose to distance your self from God the result is: you “can’t” love. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
I will help you out: True love comes from God, once you choose to distance your self from God the result is: you “can’t” love.
EXCELLENT!!!!!! | | Back to Top | | |
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