 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > God is spirit... | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 2:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
His has now revealed that His is only to be legitimately accessed through a mediator of a man, Jesus Christ, who is God and His son.
I think we're talking about two different things.
Jesus' mediator-ship (is that a word?) deals with His priesthood. God communicating to us these days, is through His Spirit.
John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
.
.
.
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
If we're talking about our legal standing with God, there's our advocate, our mediator Jesus.
If we're talking about God's communication with us, there's the Spirit.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/10/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
His has now revealed that His is only to be legitimately accessed through a mediator of a man, Jesus Christ, who is God and His son.
I think we're talking about two different things.
Jesus' mediator-ship (is that a word?) deals with His priesthood. God communicating to us these days, is through His Spirit.
John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
.
.
.
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
If we're talking about our legal standing with God, there's our advocate, our mediator Jesus.
If we're talking about God's communication with us, there's the Spirit.
I agree that there are 2 different thoughts being discussed. When it comes to God's communication with us, and I believe that spirits can/do communicate with us, it seems that the only way to DEFINITELY know that it is the Spirit of God and not another spirit pretending to be God, is the Word. The written Word is the definitive and only authoritative communication that we have now. I used the qualifiers "definitive" and "authoritative" because I still believe that God can speak to us "freestyle," if you wish. When this occurs, however, we always have and must keep a certain element of doubt that it may not be God - unless it is expliclity communicated in the Word. I can still subjectively feel that God is speaking to me and act upon it, but I may also be listening to an undigested bit of beef or another spirit that is feeding my lusts in a way that "seems" like God. If I claim that God has definitely spoken "freestyle" to me or another concerning an action and I/another don't do that action - this would be sin. God's words are always to be obeyed. If, however, I state that this impression or freestyle revelation "might" be God speaking and give the liberty to act or not to act upon it - this is different. This is the concept that I mean with the qualifiers.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
When it comes to God's communication with us, and I believe that spirits can/do communicate with us, it seems that the only way to DEFINITELY know that it is the Spirit of God and not another spirit pretending to be God, is the Word. The written Word is the definitive and only authoritative communication that we have now.
So, I see a number of possibilities, lets say a spirit says something to you:
1. scripture contradicts it, thus the spirit is wrong (steal this book)
2. scripture supports it, thus the spirit is right (be nice to your mommy)
3. scripture is silent on it, ???
(the church needs new trash cans)
Err on the side of scripture needing to speak on the matter or err on the side of scripture not contradicting the matter?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
You have liberty to "choose." It is neither a sin to act nor a sin to not act. The subjective "word" can be considered and you have freedom and Christian liberty regarding what you do. If your pastor or a "prophet" says that God has said you are to buy new trash cans (or a new building) for the church - this goes too far. Claiming God definitively is speaking in areas of "silence" is inherently abusive because it is usurping the authority of God. If the pastor simply states that he would like you to pray and consider if you would like to purchase new trash cans, this is acceptable because the pastor is not claiming God's authority in the matter.
This is seen in marriage. I see no passage in the Bible that IGod wants me to marry (insert name) and that this is His will. I seek God and consider this decision and listen to all the objective and subjective inputs including "spiritual impressions" and, then I have liberty to "choose" and I decide to marry (insert name). Once I am married I can promise you by God's almighty authority that the (insert name) is the one God has willed for me to marry. Why? Because it says in black and white that what God has joined together let no man separate. God has joined us even though I chose (insert name) and this mate (insert name) is now manifestly God's choice for me.
Answered like a true Arminian, I totally agree.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/10/2004 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
This extra-biblical statement is flat out contradicted by verses I and spenlake posted.
Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden.
Moses spoke with God face to face.
God spoke at Jesus' baptism.
The fingers of God writing at Belshazzar's Feast.
etc.
and yet the bible also claims that no one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12, and John 1:18). How can this be explained?
The passage is:
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
This follows the introduction of the book of 1 John itself.
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
I think that one explanation for this that is supported by the texts is that verse 4:12 could be read that the word "God" means God the Father because this "God" sent His Son. If one looks at the passage this way, it makes sense and still is consistent with the introduction.
Regarding the second verse, "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." I think that this same concept is consistent as it speaks of "God" sending His Son who was with Him. This obviously means God the Father.
Because they were both written by the same author and show the same contrasting elements of God vs. the Son that "God" sent, I would take these verses to mean that no one has seen God the Father at anytime.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
This extra-biblical statement is flat out contradicted by verses I and spenlake posted.
Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden.
Moses spoke with God face to face.
God spoke at Jesus' baptism.
The fingers of God writing at Belshazzar's Feast.
etc.
and yet the bible also claims that no one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12, and John 1:18). How can this be explained?
You can speak with someone without seeing them. Ever used a "telephone"?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 8:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Exodus 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend.
This is the same one who told Moses to tell Israel that YHWH had sent him to Egypt.
And YHWH is who Jesus claimed to be that got Him in trouble with the Jewish leaders.
Exodus 33:23 Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.
face to face? Ex 33:11
face to back? Ex 33:23
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/10/2004 10:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
This extra-biblical statement is flat out contradicted by verses I and spenlake posted.
Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden.
Moses spoke with God face to face.
God spoke at Jesus' baptism.
The fingers of God writing at Belshazzar's Feast.
etc.
and yet the bible also claims that no one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12, and John 1:18). How can this be explained?
You can speak with someone without seeing them. Ever used a "telephone"? LOL
Another explanation is that Adam (and Enoch) walked with the pre-incarnate "Son" and not God the Father. If there was the possibility of physical/human interaction in some greater extent for the patriarchs than for us, this interaction with God would have been an objective experience. They would have seen God and walked with God - with God the Son who was also seen and walked with by the apostles and the men of that generation.
spenlake-
I would concur with this, because the bible tells us that Christ is the image of the invisible God.
Sisters-
Face to face implies to me that Moses saw something when speaking to God, and yet the bible declares that no one has seen God. You could repeat face to face all you want and yet the simple statement, NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD, still stands. So are you claiming the bible contradicts itself?
quote:
I completely agree that God is spirit. But God is flesh too. On enrollment day I became a student. That means that now I am a student. God both became and is flesh. There is no contradiction. Replace "became" with "came to be" and this is made clear.
Sahid-
1 Cor. 15:45 tells us that Jesus became a living spirit and this is contrasted with Adam became a living soul. The flesh (psuche) is contrasted with spirit (pneuma); the natural (psuchikon) is contrasted with the spiritual (pneumatikon). Yes, Jesus was in the flesh (psuche) and has become a living spirit (pneuma). To say that Jesus is still to this day in the flesh is unbiblical. Again, I am not speaking of the amazing relationship between the Father and the Son, as spenlake is saying, I am speaking of what the bible says about the Father.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/10/2004 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
I understand your point, however, if Dr. Boyd is right in his interpretation of Genesis 6, then there is a shared event.
In any case, I think that it is important to note that Jesus was born of a virgin. His incarnation was not the result of something similar to Genesis 6, but something unique happened when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Jesus was fully God and fully human, not a 50% angel/50% human hybrid.
Of course! I never said that Jesus' conception was like Genesis 6 at all. Jesus is wholly God and wholly human. I affirm this. I was just saying that for spirit/human hybrids to be born by fallen angels, it seems like the fallen angels would have to have had some kind of special power to do that, and I just don't know if I believe that God gave them that ability.
I've also heard the interpretation of the verses about superhumans as this; that the term "Sons of God" meant the followers of the one true God, and the term "daughters of men" meant the pagan non-followers of the one true God. Although that doesn't explain why their offspring were supposedly superhuman.
Sorry Tigress,
I didn't mean to imply that you did say that. I am just basing this on the interpretation put forward by Dr. Boyd in his book God at War. There are other interpretations such as the one you refer to but they don't appear as strong as the one for the sons of God being angels.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/12/2004 2:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I'm down with everything you said except quote:
When people say "here He is" or claim they can find Him here through mystical techniques, we are told not to listen.
I think the verse you might be refering to deals with a physical return. If we can't encounter Jesus through mystical experiences, we need to tear out a good chunk of Acts, Corinthians, and all of Revelation.
Sahid,
I am interested in knowing which passages that you are specifically referring to? Jesus ascends bodily to heaven in Acts. We have Him appearing to Paul in Acts (I think that is what you are referring to with the cross-reference in Corinthians). Leaving Revelation for now, if I am correct relative to the passages you are referring to, why are these mystical? There were unbeliving withnesses who saw something tangibly with their physical eyes. That there was something physical that happened is also implied by the fact that tangible things like scales fell from the physical eyes of Paul. Paul's claim itself, "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" I (and many others) take as Paul's claim to have witnessed the bodily risen Christ physically. This is contrasted with Peter's observation, "In this you greatly rejoice...though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him." This experience of Paul seeing the risen Jesus and being apointed an apostle by Him directly was a basis of his claim to be an apostle and speak with the authority of an apostle. Paul claimed to have received his apostleship from Jesus directly (as the 12) not indirectly from man. He makes this claim in the introduction to Galatians, his strongest rebuke, "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)" This experience of Paul's was not subjective or mystical. It was testified to by those who were on the road with him who witnessed it (who were hostile to the gospel) as well as by Ananias, a god-fearing man with a reputation for integrity in the Jewish community of Damascus.
As far as Revelation, I think that this actually proves the point that I am attempting to make. For John to "experience" Jesus he was taken to heaven to see/hear Him bodily. Jesus did not appear to John as an angel or appear in his mind as some kind of imaginary impression. Jesus didn't appear to John in this world because He is still in heaven waiting to return. John went to Jesus, actually, Jesus took John up to Him. There is no record that John was ever attempting techniques to go to heaven and experience the bodily Jesus there and that he had found the formula that "worked." John was simply "in the spirit" on the Lord's day. This term, "in the spirit" is used several times in the New Testament and the concept isn't "in a trance." Romans 8 speaks to this, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. but if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
Jesus, because he has a body of flesh and bones, is only in one place at one time. He is in heaven and the Holy Spirit was sent to us on earth. The Holy Spirit is not limited in this way and through the Holy Spirit we can come to know Jesus. But the Holy Spirit doesn't come to us in the spiritual form of a man to show us a facimile of the bodily Jesus so we can "experience" Him mystically. As far as I know, the only form the Holy Spirit is recorded to have taken is a dove. Instead, the Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus and his work and words that He did while on Earth. He is never recorded as impersonating by assuming a bodily form of the Jesus with the body in Heaven so that we can vicariously "experience" Him while we are on Earth.
Thus, I think the passages that I mentioned are intended as an ongoing warning from that time until Jesus' return. He has told us that we are not to look for Him that way and that we are not to listen to those who make these claims that we will find Him that way. The claims that are legitimate are those of Peter, "In this you greatly rejoice...and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls."
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/12/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
To say that Jesus is still to this day in the flesh is unbiblical.
Well, if you say so.
Why would somebody affirm that Jesus is no longer in the flesh. I assume that to mean that they believe that he doesn't have a body of flesh. Is this what is being said? Why does Jesus ask for a piece of fish to eat and ask Thomas to put his fingers in his side? What does Thomas touch? A Spirit? What is resurrected that was once wrapped in cloth?
Honestly this concept seems silly to me. Please explain what you mean more clearly for my sake.
1 Cor. 15: 50 "flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God"
verse 51 "we shall all be CHANGED"
verse 44 "it is sown in a soulish body, it is raised in a spiritual body."
Matthew 22:31 tells us that in the resurrection we will be like angels. Do angels have a body of flesh or spirit?
There is a distiction between the fleshy body and the spiritual body. Upon resurrection God will give us a spiritual body, which will be incorruptable and immortal. People can be rasied up but not given a spiritual body as in the case of Lazarus, who eventually died again. Jesus did not recieve His spiritual body until He ascended into heaven. I never said Jesus did not still have a body, I just stated that He is no longer in the flesh, He has become a living spirit (1 Cor. 15:45-46). The key to understanding this is the Greek word zoopoieo. John 5:21, "For even as the Father is rousing the dead and vivfying, thus the Son also is vivifying whom He will." Note the dead are roused and vivified. This is the resurrection life we have through Christ, Who is the Firstfruit (1 Cor. 15:23).
quote:
Why does Jesus ask for a piece of fish to eat and ask Thomas to put his fingers in his side? What does Thomas touch? A Spirit? What is resurrected that was once wrapped in cloth?
Your examples are when Jesus, even though roused from among the dead, was still on the earth and yet to be vivified. Where does the bible say that Jesus is still in the flesh after His ascension as opposed to becoming a living spirit?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
| 67 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:59 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|