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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/13/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Question on the same topic based upon the following scriptures.
Gen 32
Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but £Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place £Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.
Psalm 78
He rained down manna upon them to eat
And gave them food from heaven.
Man did eat the bread of angels
Luke 24
While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst. But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.
It seems to me that we find 2 "economies" represented. One "pre-Moses death" and one "post-Moses death." In the above passages we find that men can touch and even wrestle with spirits bodily pre-Moses. While in Jesus' time He seems to imply that a man cannot touch a spirit to feel flesh and bone. The same appears true regarding food. It seems at least implied that spirits cannot each fish while the manna that was physically gathered and eaten by men is called the "bread of angels."
Whay do you make of it? Jesus was not incarnated as a man until His birth. As I understand it, He only took the form of man at that time.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/13/2004 5:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Jesus did not recieve His spiritual body until He ascended into heaven.
Well, if you say so.
Can flesh and blood enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God? The bible says no. I think I can safely assume Jesus has an allottment in the kingdom of God and so He must have a spiritual body as well.
Luke 22:
"When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”
I believe that this passage means that Jesus will literally eat and drink when He returns to earth as the literal King of the manifest kingdom of God. He would be eating literal food and drinking literal wine. He also confirms that his followers will have literal bodies when He returns and that they will join Him in the feast.
"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Spen Lake
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 9/13/2004 7:05 AM (GMT -6) | | | Guys this is all very nice, and feel free to continue your discussion here, but it would be nice if anyone had any thoughts to add on my original question, I don't feel it's been addressed properly yet | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/13/2004 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by spenlake
Jesus,
In the body that He appeared to the disciples said that He had flesh and bones. Perhaps the resurrected body had no blood? We know from Hebrews that Jesus offered His own blood as the atoning sacrifice once for all. I find nothing in 1 Co 15 that states that God took the resurrected body from Jesus when He ascended. Jesus, in his body of flesh and bones, could pass through locked doors - something difficult for us. In fact, Jesus on the mount was glorified and his face became shining like the sun in front of the disciples.
I see many passages that say that we have hope because of the bodily resurrection of Jesus and the fact that this was witnessed by men. I don't see passages that say that we actually have a further hope because Jesus somehow jettisoned the body that men witnessed and changed it for a different one. I think that we are supposed to have hope to receive new bodies BECAUSE the apostles witnessed the body of Christ.
[/quote]
psuche (flesh) cannot enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of heaven, with or without blood. Christ became a life-giving pneuma. Look at 1 Cor. 15:36-38 where Paul states, "What you are sowing is not being vivfied if it should not be dying. And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernal, perchance of wheat or some of the rest. Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills..." Paul continues to explain how the earthly body is different then the heavenly body; psuche vs. pneuma. If God is giving us, who are in Christ, a new spiritual body (a new creation), why would I assume that Christ, being the Firstfruit, does not already have a pneuma body?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/13/2004 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other because we attach different meanings to the same terms. I am saying that He does have His spiritual body (that has flesh and bones) and this is one and the same with the body that He appeared with His disciples with. I believe that the spiritual body that is mentioned in the following passage has flesh and bones as Jesus had. Why would you believe otherwise?
Jesus dies and is raised as a first fruit with the eternal spiritual glorified body that He appeared to His disciples with. He doesn't somehow die again to sow that body for a different spiritual one. This is, however exactly what happened with Lazarus. In the case of Lazarus, and the other people brought to life throughout the Bible, God simply restored life into their natural bodies. All of these people died again and, when they will be raised, will have a spiritual body. Jesus died once and the body that He showed the disciples is eternal and will forever have the marks of Calvary on it.
1 Co 15:42
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
The passages say nothing about his resurrected body changing to something else. It was this body that the disciples witnessed ascending.
Mark
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Acts 2
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
Romans
Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Peter
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/13/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lock,
Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other because we attach different meanings to the same terms. I am saying that He does have His spiritual body (that has flesh and bones) and this is one and the same with the body that He appeared with His disciples with. I believe that the spiritual body that is mentioned in the following passage has flesh and bones as Jesus had. Why would you believe otherwise?
Jesus dies and is raised as a first fruit with the eternal spiritual glorified body that He appeared to His disciples with. He doesn't somehow die again to sow that body for a different spiritual one. This is, however exactly what happened with Lazarus. In the case of Lazarus, and the other people brought to life throughout the Bible, God simply restored life into their natural bodies. All of these people died again and, when they will be raised, will have a spiritual body. Jesus died once and the body that He showed the disciples is eternal and will forever have the marks of Calvary on it.
1 Co 15:42
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
The passages say nothing about his resurrected body changing to something else. It was this body that the disciples witnessed ascending.
Mark
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Acts 2
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
Romans
Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Peter
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
Spenlake-
Perhaps you are right that we are saying the same thing, yet in different terms. The only thing that I get caught on (and this is not something spelled out in the bible), but if the resurrection body is a new creation, uncorruptable, then why would Jesus still have the marks from the nails and the wound in His side? That tells me that He was still in His raised up soulish (psuchikon) body (just as in the case of Lazarus)before His acsension, at which time He was vivified with the uncorruptable, immortal, spiritual (pneumatikon) body. The bible does not clearly state that Jesus was in the vivified (or as you say, glorified) state when He was raised up from among the dead, and as I said above, the physical evidence of the crucifixion tells me He was yet to be vivified. I would think that it was necessary for the disciples to see Jesus in His risen (psuche) body first in order to recongnize Him completely.
As far as the composition of the spiritual body; I have yet to find a physical description except for the fact that it is compared to angels, and as you pointed out, the Bible records physical contact with angelic beings, and that they can eat, etc.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/13/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lock,
The reason that I have heard regarding His hands, feet, and side is that these marks are a type of "trophy" in remembrance for the victory that He accomplished on the Cross. That his appearance was now no longer "marred more than any man And his form more than the sons of men" leads me to believe that He was not resurrected with all of the marks of torture on Him but only those that He spoke of.
These marks are the marks of the proof of God's love and His goodness. We remember His death even as we experience the life that His death purchased for us.
I see what you are saying, and I will continue to look into it, considering what you have posted. As for now I see the bible making it clear that the body we are now in, will not be the body we will have when we are raised and vivified, and since Christ is the firstfruit of those vivified, I expect Christ to no longer have the marks He endured while in His body of flesh, but to have a spiritual body which is the new creation that we have in Him.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/13/2004 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake, I was refering to Peter and Ananias in acts, Paul in Corinthians, and John in Revelation. There was a physical element to Paul's conversion, but God communicated to Paul alone, no one else expereinced it like Paul did. Ananias was visited by a vision. The "come up here" part of Revelation has been taken amaxingly literally for a passage from a book that is so obviously metaphorical. John was "in he Spirit." If someone claims to decisively know all that means, I get very suspicious. I don't think it's too unreasonable to say he had a mystical vision of some kind.
Markporter, I haven't the foggiest. Like you said, it's foreign to us. We can talk about metaphysical reality, we can have it make logical sense, but we don't have a good frame of reference. Maybe someone smarter than me can explain it.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/14/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Hay spen!
I just thought of this, when we spoke of Jesus after His resurrection He was able to appear in a room, this was used as evidence that Christ had been vivified before His ascension. Did not the spirit of God catch Philip away in Acts 8:39?
Lock,
I had thought of that passage too. And I think that God could make Jesus appear when and where He wanted Him to appear. I also wouldn’t take as conclusive “proof.” I think, however, that there is a difference in what we have described with Philippe and with Jesus. Jesus seems to intentionally be able to move where He wishes and Philippe is simply caught up by the Spirit. This is similar to other events where God interacted with men in their natural bodies. Elijah is also taken bodily in a whirlwind of fire. Enoch was not because God took him. God can do some strange things that are difficult for us to understand. I don’t think that this part of my argument was the strongest, just anecdotal. To me some of the strongest evidence is found in 1 Co 15.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. ( believe that the word “raise” refers to resurrection from the dead and not ascending into heaven)
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The concept that seems core in the phrase “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,” is the concept that mortal (or natural) cannot encompass and partake of immortality. Our present “earthly” bodies cannot fully manifest the kingdom of God because they will perish and die and the kingdom of God is eternal and has no death. Death is an obstacle to our inheriting the kingdom of Heaven perfectly in our present bodies. Thus, I believe your observation concerning Lazarus is correct. Ultimately he died and his natural body has decayed. His resurrection was simply a postponement of death, not a victory over it.
Your argument that Jesus’ resurrected body was somehow not his glorified, spiritual, or “vivified” body and only temporary seems weak to me because this implies, based on the passages above that Jesus in his body after the resurrection would need to die again to “sow” this body to obtain his spiritual one. I believe that his death had already “sowed” that body and that His resurrection and presentation of this new spiritual body before witnesses “proved” the hope that we all look forward to in obtaining a spiritual body as He had shown them. Your argument that Jesus simply had a resurrected body like Lazarus eviscerates the concept of victory over death. Lazarus’ body was not evidence of victory over death because his body was not eternal. Jesus resurrection and body are given as “proof” of victory over death eternally and proof of the promise of immortality. This is a hard claim to make if he were only presenting his “resurrected old body” as “evidence.” Then He would be no better than Lazarus. The fact that Jesus ascended wouldn’t be sufficient “proof” or unique in that Enoch and Elijah were also taken to heaven bodily (in their flesh and blood bodies). Jesus would then simply be one of three.
What is unique with Jesus IS His spiritual resurrected body that He presented as proof to His disciples. No other man, not Enoch or Elijah nor Lazarus has done this. Because of this proof we have hope that we will obtain this spiritual body as well (with flesh and bones and the capacity to eat and be touched).
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/14/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake-
Would you agree that there are at least 2 types of resurrection, in that one is only physical (example: Lazarus) and the other involves a change in nature (psuche to pneuma)? I believe that here in 1 Cor. 15 Paul is speaking only of the resurrection to vivification.
[quote]Your argument that Jesus’ resurrected body was somehow not his glorified, spiritual, or “vivified” body and only temporary seems weak to me because this implies, based on the passages above that Jesus in his body after the resurrection would need to die again to “sow” this body to obtain his spiritual one. I believe that his death had already “sowed” that body and that His resurrection and presentation of this new spiritual body before witnesses “proved” the hope that we all look forward to in obtaining a spiritual body as He had shown them. Your argument that Jesus simply had a resurrected body like Lazarus eviscerates the concept of victory over death. Lazarus’ body was not evidence of victory over death because his body was not eternal. Jesus resurrection and body are given as “proof” of victory over death eternally and proof of the promise of immortality. This is a hard claim to make if he were only presenting his “resurrected old body” as “evidence.” Then He would be no better than Lazarus. The fact that Jesus ascended wouldn’t be sufficient “proof” or unique in that Enoch and Elijah were also taken to heaven bodily (in their flesh and blood bodies). Jesus would then simply be one of three.
This makes a lot of sense because I think your are correct that the body of flesh is sown in death in order for us to take on the spiritual body. But, as seen in verse 51, Paul states that "we will not all sleep" (referring to death). So, it is not necessary that one die in order that they be changed into a spiritual body.
I, for one, am not fully satisfied with either of our views and I enjoy our discussion because it looks at the subject from different views and perspectives.
I understand what you mean by the nail marks and side wound being like trophies, but I am still hung up on the idea that Jesus would still bear the marks of the price of sin (which is corruptable) on His glorified (vivified) body(which is incorruptable).
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/14/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | |
Lock says: quote:
"This makes a lot of sense because I think your are correct that the body of flesh is sown in death in order for us to take on the spiritual body. But, as seen in verse 51, Paul states that "we will not all sleep" (referring to death). So, it is not necessary that one die in order that they be changed into a spiritual body."
This passage seems to indicate a one time event and not something relative to those that are not alive at the time of His coming. I think that this is the only recorded exception to death. There is 2 other potential exceptions, Elijah and Enoch. Personally I think that these men physically reappear in their bodies as the two witnesses in Revelation. These witnesses will be killed and then raised. "but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."
Concerning the scars, I do not see them as the effect of sin or corruption but the marks of Love and the proof that our God loved us and died for us. When I look on Him I will see and remember that those scars are for me.
Regardless, while much (enough) is revealed in scripture, there is much that isn't made clear now and remains hidden in God.
Spen Lake
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