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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 9/8/2004 9:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | | God is spirit....what exactly does this mean? what's a good way of thinking about it? from our point of view it's very hard to imagine something that's not in some way physical/geometrical/solid I was wondering whether anyone had any ideas about good ways to think about what a spirit actually is... | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:17 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree with lock. Furthermore, we are not called to "know" the spirit or delve into the spiritual world freestyle. Freestyle spiritual advernturing, divination, is forbidden. All we need to know concerning God the spirit is revealed to us in a man, that we could see and hear. Men witnessed God and told us about Him. God's spirit now testifies about this man, who is now seated at the right hand of God. If we come to know and have fellowship with this man, we have fellowship with God the Father and each other.
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I believe the bible teaches that the Father is invisible and inaudible to human perception
Really? Who did Abram and Moses talk to?
God faxed the 10 commandments to Mount Sinai?
Hebrews 3:15 while it is said,
TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.
Ah, but God is just using a "figure of speech", so when He says "provoke Me", He really means...............? what?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/9/2004 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I believe the bible teaches that the Father is invisible and inaudible to human perception
Really? Who did Abram and Moses talk to?
God faxed the 10 commandments to Mount Sinai?
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Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
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Hebrews 3:15 while it is said,
TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.
Ah, but God is just using a "figure of speech", so when He says "provoke Me", He really means...............? what?
God speaks through Jesus, prophets, and angels.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
God speaks through Jesus, prophets, and angels.
Genesis 15:5 Yahweh brought him outside, and said, "Look now toward the sky, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." He said to Abram, "So shall your seed be."
Exodus 19:18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the LORD descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently.
19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder.
20 The LORD came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the LORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.
21 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, "Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
22 "Also let the priests who come near to the LORD consecrate themselves, or else the LORD will break out against them."
23 Moses said to the LORD, "The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, 'Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.'"
24 Then the LORD said to him, "Go down and come up again, (34) you and Aaron with you; but do not let the (35) priests and the people break through to come up to the LORD, or He will break forth upon them."
25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.
Exodus 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Dodger, who did Abram and Moses talk to?
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If the interpretation of Dr. Boyd of Genesis 6:3 that he makes in God at War concerning the Nephilim is correct, that at one period in time spirits could interact bodily with humans to the extent of fathering hybrid beings, then something was different with Abraham and the Patriarchs than exists now. We no longer see the proof of these hybrids. After Moses there is a difference and God no longer speaks directly to men but uses intermediaries or visions or dreams. He no longer eats food with them nor wrestles with them bodily as He did with Jacob.
So "I believe the bible teaches that the Father is invisible and inaudible to human perception" is incorrect.
God is audible to human perception.
Check out incubi and succubi sometime. Perhaps this interaction continues.... and is a sign of how bad things could get.
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Spirit
1.A supernatural being, as:
a.An angel or a demon.
b.A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
c.A fairy or sprite.
2.The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
there are more but this will do... | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leviathan
Spirit
2.The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
Yeah, that'd be the image of God we're made in.
<thumbs up>
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sister says quote:
God is audible to human perception.
I would agree that He can make Himself audible. The clearest example seems to be:
"After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Good example.
Do you believe incubus and succubus are just fictious folklore or folklore based on something factual?
Personally I think the Nephilim phenomena persisted until Israel took control of the land based on a couple of things:
1. David killed one of the Nephilim
2. It's indicative of how bad the sin of the Amorite was, Gen 15:16
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sister says quote:
God is audible to human perception.
I would agree that He can make Himself audible. The clearest example seems to be:
"After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Good example.
Do you believe incubus and succubus are just fictious folklore or folklore based on some fact?
I believe that people may have spiritual experiences that seem "real." They may even have spiritual experiences that involve the sexual. If someone is in a trance and willingly experiences something sexual with demons, is this "real" or not? There is something happening spiritually, however, there is not the "fruit" or proof of such a union actually being physically consumated, the hybrid offspring that are referred to as giants in Genesis - Joshua. These tangible "fruit" of such a union between spirit and human (and their offspring) seem to have disappeared at the time of David. From then on we see a move from what could be called "tangible spiritual adultery" between women and fallen angels to "mediated spiritual adultery" between temple prostitutes and their worshippers. (This all of course assumes that Dr. Boyd is correct in his interpretation of Genesis 6:3)
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/9/2004 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Sisters-
I am sure that it makes your day when you think you have proven me wrong, but remember, that is your interpretation of scripture and that does not make it correct or incorrect, except only in your eyes. I will stand by my statement (John 5:37 and 1 John 4:12).
Spenlake-
Building off of Gen. 6, The Companion Bible notes that "perfect in his generations" in the KJV of verse 9 refers to pedigree or breed, meaning that all flesh was corrupted except Noah's family. 2 Peter 2:4-5, Peter mentions these angels and how they are in chains. I have also read that this is part of the judgment upon the inhabitants of Canaan (which included killing the women and children) through Israel. One last thing, I have also read that when Jesus refers to the days of Noah as related to the last days, that it not only refers to the suddenness but also this corrupt mingling between angels and humans and may explain the supernatural beings, the false prophet and the beast of Revelation. Again these are only things to consider and only speculation within interpretation.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | This whole demons "fathering" hybrids with human females really bewilders me, because first of all, God created spirits as androgynous, therefore they cannot procreate at all. Secondly, since they are only spirit, how could they produce fleshly beings through procreation? Finally, God said that after humans go to heaven they will "be like the angels and not marry" meaning we will not have sex anymore and therefore certainly not procreate anymore. This supports my first statement that the angels are or must be androgynous. The only reason God made humans male and female was so that we could procreate in marriage and perpetuate humanity as well as the fact that man needed woman as a helpmeet. Apparently angels weren't created to need helpmeets of any kind.
So anyway, if these things are true, how could hybrid offspring even truly have been produced by fallen angels? It makes sense that God could impregnate Mary with His Son Jesus because God's God and He created everything, so He could do whatever was necessary to produce His all-God, all-Man Son. But, the angels and demons couldn't possibly have that power or ability could they?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
This whole demons "fathering" hybrids with human females really bewilders me, because first of all, God created spirits as androgynous, therefore they cannot procreate at all. Secondly, since they are only spirit, how could they produce fleshly beings through procreation? Finally, God said that after humans go to heaven they will "be like the angels and not marry" meaning we will not have sex anymore and therefore certainly not procreate anymore. This supports my first statement that the angels are or must be androgynous. The only reason God made humans male and female was so that we could procreate in marriage and perpetuate humanity as well as the fact that man needed woman as a helpmeet. Apparently angels weren't created to need helpmeets of any kind.
So anyway, if these things are true, how could hybrid offspring even truly have been produced by fallen angels? It makes sense that God could impregnate Mary with His Son Jesus because God's God and He created everything, so He could do whatever was necessary to produce His all-God, all-Man Son. But, the angels and demons couldn't possibly have that power or ability could they?
Tigress,
Why do you believe that the Bible tells us that angels are androgynous? It states in Gen 6 the "sons of God," which is a term with gender. As far as I know the angels of the Bible were described as male when they were described at all as in Genesis when the 3 men came to Abraham and then the two men went on to Sodom. The commander of the hosts met by Joshua was also apparently a male (Josh 5:13). It does say that angels do not marry (which would be true if they were all male). It doesn't necessarily say that they are genderless. Jacob wrestled with a man (Gen 32:24)and Daniel saw a man (Daniel 8:15), Ezekiel saw a man (Ez 1:26).
Not once do we have angels represented as women or female that I am aware of. Thus, it would make sense that the fallen angels would seek after human women.
Spen Lake
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/9/2004 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
This whole demons "fathering" hybrids with human females really bewilders me, because first of all, God created spirits as androgynous, therefore they cannot procreate at all. Secondly, since they are only spirit, how could they produce fleshly beings through procreation? Finally, God said that after humans go to heaven they will "be like the angels and not marry" meaning we will not have sex anymore and therefore certainly not procreate anymore. This supports my first statement that the angels are or must be androgynous. The only reason God made humans male and female was so that we could procreate in marriage and perpetuate humanity as well as the fact that man needed woman as a helpmeet. Apparently angels weren't created to need helpmeets of any kind.
So anyway, if these things are true, how could hybrid offspring even truly have been produced by fallen angels? It makes sense that God could impregnate Mary with His Son Jesus because God's God and He created everything, so He could do whatever was necessary to produce His all-God, all-Man Son. But, the angels and demons couldn't possibly have that power or ability could they?
Tigress,
Why do you believe that the Bible tells us that angels are androgynous? It states in Gen 6 that the sons of God, which is a term with gender. As far as I know the angels of the Bible were described as male when they were described as in Genesis when the 3 men came to Abraham and then the two men went to Sodom. The commander of the hosts met by Joshua was also apparently a male (Josh 5:13). It does say that angels do not marry (which would be true if they were all male). It doesn't necessarily say that they are genderless. Jacob wrestled with a man (Gen 32:24)and Daniel saw a man (daniel 8:15), Ezekiel saw a man (Ez 1:26).
Not once do we have angels represented as women or female. Thus, it would make sense that the fallen angels would seek after human women.
Yes, but you're forgetting that angels appear to us in ways that we can understand. The Bible states that even Satan can disquise himself as an angel of light. So, it stands to reason that God's holy angels, when God sent them to give us messages from Him, appeared to humans in a form that humans could relate to. If we looked like dogs, angels would make themselves look like dogs when speaking to us, or if we looked like cats they'd appear as cats, etc. But as I said above, spirits are not made of flesh, therefore they have no fleshly form, which means they don't even really look like human beings when in their natural state. They don't look like anything because they're not made up of matter or flesh at all. But, when God sends them to speak to us, they make themselves visible in a form that won't totally freak us out - as human men. And even so, it still sometimes freaked out people anyway!
So, that said, how is it even possible for angels or demons to conceive a fleshly being when they themselves are not flesh? And how could they impregnate a human female if the angels are neither male nor female and therefore don't have sperm?
(Oh, one more thing. Men in Old Testament times were more likely to listen to a being that looked like a man than a woman because of their preconceived notions of the place of women in society. So, that alone supports my argument that angels would take on the form of human males to speak to human males.)
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I understand your arguments, and yet we have literal descriptions of angels as male/men. The argument about the dogs seems weak in that there are numerous descriptions of spiritual beings such as the cherubim having forms of beasts and other forms that were difficult for the prophets to describe. I believe that these descriptions are to be taken literally. Apparently, you believe that they are allegorized or somehow symbolic.
That said, I don't know how angels could impregnate women. I just believe that at one time they were able to. While it is not biblical, some kind of historical evidence for something of this kind occuring at one point in time is not lacking. The myths and ancient cultural histories of all of the major civilizations of the world relate something very similar in nature, gods impregnating humans. This literal explanation in Genesis provides a rational basis for this happening. What other alternative do you propose that would explain the consistency on this point in the mythical records of the world's cultures? Did nothing ever happen and people around the world just imagined it together independently.
Well, to be perfectly honest, and maybe this sounds ethnocentric or something but I always believed that the mythologies of other religions were simply made up and got wackier-sounding over time, and/or were lies told by Satan and his demons to lead people away from the truth of God. Just because lots of different cultures and religions contain similar stories about stuff doesn't prove that those things really happened. To me, it seems more likely that those things were actually tales spread by the devil and demons to lead people astray. I think that's where all the similarity comes from - not from actual shared events, but from the same author(s) of the lies.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 12:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I understand your arguments, and yet we have literal descriptions of angels as male/men. The argument about the dogs seems weak in that there are numerous descriptions of spiritual beings such as the cherubim having forms of beasts and other forms that were difficult for the prophets to describe. I believe that these descriptions are to be taken literally. Apparently, you believe that they are allegorized or somehow symbolic.
That said, I don't know how angels could impregnate women. I just believe that at one time they were able to. While it is not biblical, some kind of historical evidence for something of this kind occuring at one point in time is not lacking. The myths and ancient cultural histories of all of the major civilizations of the world relate something very similar in nature, gods impregnating humans. This literal explanation in Genesis provides a rational basis for this happening. What other alternative do you propose that would explain the consistency on this point in the mythical records of the world's cultures? Did nothing ever happen and people around the world just imagined it together independently.
Well, to be perfectly honest, and maybe this sounds ethnocentric or something but I always believed that the mythologies of other religions were simply made up and got wackier-sounding over time, and/or were lies told by Satan and his demons to lead people away from the truth of God. Just because lots of different cultures and religions contain similar stories about stuff doesn't prove that those things really happened. To me, it seems more likely that those things were actually tales spread by the devil and demons to lead people astray. I think that's where all the similarity comes from - not from actual shared events, but from the same author(s) of the lies.
I understand your point, however, if Dr. Boyd is right in his interpretation of Genesis 6, then there is a shared event.
In any case, I think that it is important to note that Jesus was born of a virgin. His incarnation was not the result of something similar to Genesis 6, but something unique happened when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Jesus was fully God and fully human, not a 50% angel/50% human hybrid.
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/9/2004 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Sisters-
Just so you know that I am not the only depraved human to think this I have this quote for you from an essay found on www.concordant.org
quote:
God in Himself is invisible and inaudible (1 Tim.1:17; John 5:37; cf Heb.11:26,27). God is spirit (John 4:24), without intrinsic form or shape. God is omnipresent, filling heaven and earth (Jer.23:24), pervading the universe (Psa.139:7,8). In Himself, He is indiscernible and unknowable by ones such as ourselves, limited by sentient faculties. If God would make Himself known, revealing Himself to our sight and hearing, He needs an Image, an Expression, a Mediator between Himself and mankind. That which fills this need–“the complement of the Deity” (Col.2:9)–dwells bodily in the One Who is His Christ, His only-begotten Son, Christ our Lord.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Just so you know that I am not the only depraved human to think this I have this quote for you from an essay found on www.concordant.org
quote:
If God would make Himself known, revealing Himself to our sight and hearing, He needs an Image, an Expression, a Mediator between Himself and mankind.
This extra-biblical statement is flat out contradicted by verses I and spenlake posted.
Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden.
Moses spoke with God face to face.
God spoke at Jesus' baptism.
The fingers of God writing at Belshazzar's Feast.
etc.
Maybe now that we have the Spirit, God sees no need to interact with us as He once did but God certainly has the ability.
http://www.concordant.org/about/WhatIsTheConcordantPublishingConcern.html
quote:
WE ARE NOT AUTHORITIES
We make no claims except an honest desire to discover the facts of God’s Word, a patient and orderly investigation of the evidence, and the publication, not only of our findings, but of the data necessary for testing its truth. Above all we want no one to believe us.
LOL, OKay, I don't believe you......
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/10/2004 2:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Just so you know that I am not the only depraved human to think this I have this quote for you from an essay found on www.concordant.org
quote:
If God would make Himself known, revealing Himself to our sight and hearing, He needs an Image, an Expression, a Mediator between Himself and mankind.
This extra-biblical statement is flat out contradicted by verses I and spenlake posted.
Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden.
Moses spoke with God face to face.
God spoke at Jesus' baptism.
The fingers of God writing at Belshazzar's Feast.
etc.
http://www.concordant.org/about/WhatIsTheConcordantPublishingConcern.html
quote:
WE ARE NOT AUTHORITIES
We make no claims except an honest desire to discover the facts of God’s Word, a patient and orderly investigation of the evidence, and the publication, not only of our findings, but of the data necessary for testing its truth. Above all we want no one to believe us.
LOL, OKay, I don't believe you......
I beleive that, while God (and spirits) can and do bring us impressions and that God the Father can speak from heaven as He did when he spoke to Peter, James and John on the mount of transfiguration, His has now revealed that His is only to be legitimately accessed through a mediator of a man, Jesus Christ, who is God and His son. The mystery of the gospel and the cross was never revealed prior to Jesus' coming, but was kept hidden. The Gospel was not communicated to men through any other means except by men. Jesus, as a man, brought the message and carried it out. His apostles and the church were tasked to preach and teach it. Even when angels do appear, as they did with Cornelius, they simply told him to find the man Peter and that Peter would speak to him about salvation. Paul warns us of angels speaking another gospel. The gospel was given to us and revealed by a man, who was God, and we as humans have been tasked to communicate it to humans.
We are not the intermediaries or the mediator, however, as we only continue to point the the one man who was.
Spen Lake
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