 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/11/2004 3:53 AM (GMT -6) |   |
There seems to be a chain in 1 John in which God defined "love" with some specific qualifications that would appear to make the actions and attitudes of many "noble" and compassionate people "unloving."
Item 1: Summary of Commandment of God
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
Item 2: Proof of loving the children of God
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
If we perform what we would perceive as loving acts and yet fail to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, based upon the above verses, it would seem that the perceived "loving acts" are not "loving acts" in that we only know that we love the children of God when we observe His commandments and the first one is that we believe on His Son.
If this logic isn't flawed, then perhaps actions like giving all my possessions to feed the poor without "love" (1 Co 13) could be looked at in another way than "without the emotion of love." Giving food to the poor is addressed in 1 John "But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?" and in James "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
Perhaps "and have not love" of 1 Co 13 is better interpreted not as lacking compassion or feelings, but lacking obedience to the first part of His commandment "to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ." If this is true, the lack was not a lack of compassion but of "belief," then this would make the consequence in 1 Co 13 seem understandable - "it profits me nothing." Thus, it wouldn't be emotional compassion or empathy that makes giving all one's possesions to feed the poor of value, but belief in Jesus. Compassionate and empathetic generosity will benefit and feed the poor but, unless it is based upon belief in the work of Christ, it profits that giver nothing eternally.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/11/2004 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
quote:
Perhaps "and have not love" of 1 Co 13 is better interpreted not as lacking compassion or feelings, but lacking obedience to the first part of His commandment "to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ." If this is true, the lack was not a lack of compassion but of "belief…"
But love and faith are different! You almost seem to be making love mean faith…
Yes, love and faith work together, but that doesn't mean they are not distinct:
1 Corinthians 13:2 … if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Ephesians 6:23 Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree that love is not nice feelings! It's a heart to do good, I would say, an inclination that way, which is different than faith, maybe faith is the foundation, and love is what you build on top of that...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/11/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | I didn't mean to equate love and faith. I think that what this means, if the logic is correct, is that there is no love without faith. If someone has compassion and empathy and strong emotions and even actions that are consistent with this, they still are not "loving" based upon God's definition, the only one that counts. I think that the same could be true regarding those that have strong feelings of emotions towards God. This isn't "love" based on God's definition. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." His first commandement is that we believe. The same thing regarding "abiding in the love of God." “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. "
It would seem that at some point in time, if we don't keep this commandment to believe, then we will not "abide in the love of God." Instead we will be exposed like the unclothed man at the wedding feast and abide in His wrath.
It appears to me in reading much of what goes on in this site that "compassionate actions" are considered sufficient proof that a person is loving God and lovng his neighbor. If what I have written is true, then this "proof" is far from sufficient or conclusive. Those that don't have it are obviously not loving God or the brethren, but those that do still may be outside of the love of God with some false security. In fact, those that only have compassion and generous actions will still be damned and the recipients of the wrath of God. It is the gospel that demonstrates the love of God, not our love of God and others. In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and gave Himself up for us.
"Love" in those that are not "believing" but experiencing deep emotions and feelings is not love at all according to God's definition.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tina Turner
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 9/11/2004 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/11/2004 5:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Godly love is unselfish goodwill toward all persons. In modern English, "love" has been very much watered down to mean anything from "strongly like" to "lust," to "enjoy."
In an emotionally healthy person, appropriate emotions ought to follow the choice to act in a benevolent manner. Indeed, one should probably question whether he has any true godly love at all if he is simply acting out of a sense of duty or obligation, without the corresponding godly emotions of joy, peace, compassion, etc. Can we imagine a wife claiming she loves her husband, going about her "duties" as a wife, but never showing any emotion in doing so?
Godly love is desiring and acting towards the highest good of all, simply because it is right to do so and because the good of all is worthwhile in itself, not out of any self-seeking motive.
I don't guess I quite get the point of the question with regard to love being "a belief." It seems to me that it certainly includes faith (for everything we receive from God is by grace through faith), but I don't know that we can classify love itself as a belief per se. Scripture lists it as a fruit (product) of the Spirit, along with faith/faithfulness. (Gal. 5)
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/11/2004 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Love of this kind may not exist without beliving in the name of Jesus Christ, but love outlives faith and is eternal. Faith is not eternal because it will be obsolete when Christ returns and we "see" Him. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. When God's promises of eternal life are fulfilled and completed in us and we posess our glorified bodies, faith has passed away in their fulfillment but love still remains.
AMEN
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/13/2004 2:28 AM (GMT -6) | |
I was thinking of this concept of God's definition of "love" being dependent on believing on His Son and came across an interesting passage that seems to imply something similar regarding the scriptures.
John 5
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. “I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
There have been several times on this site where some have tried to use the first part of this passage as a justification for their claim that my view of the scriptures was too narrow - not allowing room for freesytle spiritual experiences. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. In reading the entire passage we find that the scriptures are not the problem at all. The fundamental issue is the same on that we see God's definition of love dependent on - believing. "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
The problem that Jesus is dealing with is not an over-exalted view of the scriptures by the Pharisees, but that they refused to believe them and thus the scriptures were of no use to them except to condemn them and their unbelief to hell. This is the same concept with "freestlye love" in which compassion, empathy, sympathy, kindness, etc. is of no use at all to the one that practices them without "belief in the Son." As 1 Co 13 says, someone doing all these actions without belief "is nothing."
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/13/2004 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
So, is there a difference between human love and God's love? Or might the love of God be beyond that of a human's?
As the Christ tells us to "love one another, AS I have loved you," and that "God is love; he that lives in love lives in God and God in him," etc., it would seem that it is the same in kind, while of course differing in degree. Without question, God's expression of agape love would be infinitely more than any human (finite) expression of agape.
I think that you have articulated the issue I was looking for, JEE. Is it a different love or one of degree. Based upon the passages at the beginning of this thread, it is impossible for one without faith to love as Christ loved, impossible. They may be compassionate and even give their lives for someone else. "For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." All this is meaningless and profits them nothing, however, if they do not obey God's command to believe in His Son.
Thus, while pagans and sinners may "love" one andother with strong emotions, expressions of kindness, and even giving their lives - this is a different love. It isn't founded in believing in His Son. It just isn't a matter of degree, with those without this belief it is truly a differnt loved based upon something else.
When speaking of Christians, however, I totally agree with you that we can and do love one another but not as completely, or totally or as perfectly as Christ. Here it is a matter of degree.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/13/2004 1:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
When speaking of Christians, however, I totally agree with you that we can and do love one another but not as completely, or totally or as perfectly as Christ. Here it is a matter of degree.
If Christians even came close to loving like Christ, I don’t think we would see today's divorce rate for Christians being equivalent with that of pagans?
I believe our high divorce rate is directly related to people being led by their feelings instead of their faith and trust in the truth of Jesus. | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:05 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|