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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > A Prophetic Word for North Heights - Oct 2004 | Forum Quick Jump
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/29/2004 4:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Spenlake, I care VERY much for people who are thrown to wolves. When I said that I know for myself that his prophecy does not apply I meant that I can only speak for myself. I am not sure if this prophecy touches anyone's spirit in such a way that they feel moved by God. This is NOT for me to discern. On the other hand, if I felt that people were being oppressed by the word being shared then I would intervene/speak up. If I found someone feeling an overwhelming sense of shame from a word being prophesied then I would speak the truth of God to them "for there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? I do know that many have been hurt by bizarre prophecy. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/29/2004 4:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
your "feeling" is only good for you, leaving me outside for the wolves to oppress because my faith is weak - this makes me sad
I am sorry if you yourself are feeling sad. Did you say that your faith is weak? Are you feeling oppressed by wolves? I will stand with you if you need me to but please share how you are feeling vulnerable. Perhaps I missed it because this is cyber space and many things get lost along the way. I am sincerely offering my support if you are feeling vulnerable and weak.
Spenlake, I thought you were opening this thread to DISCUSS the prophecy but didn't realize you were SEEKING counsel. I am sorry for being insensitive. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/29/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Quest,
I was re-reading my previous post and I think that it has an arrogant "tone" and I am sorry for that and I ask you to overlook it if you can. I think that I am reacting so strongly as I have been and seen many who were oppressed by prophecies similar to this one and few or none came to offer shelter. When "feeling" is the measure and your "feeling" is only good for you, leaving me outside for the wolves to oppress because my faith is weak - this makes me sad. I wish that there were more people who could show those who are oppressed with the very Words of God that these abusive and manipulative prophecies are not to be feared. Not to be feared because of objective truth and not "feelings" (yours or mine).
Again, please pardon the tone and look to the issue.
Hello Spen,
It is my belief that God wants to take what was meant for evil and work it, mold and shape it into something good. What ever evil comes our way, we can rejoice in knowing that the evil is not from God. We can rejoice in knowing that our Lord will stand by those that have faith in Him, those that put their trust in Him, those that repent and surrender to His will.
I pray that the Holy Spirit will speak to you though the Word of God:
Ephes. 3:16-19
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit, and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Shalom,
Mark
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/30/2004 1:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
your "feeling" is only good for you, leaving me outside for the wolves to oppress because my faith is weak - this makes me sad
I am sorry if you yourself are feeling sad. Did you say that your faith is weak? Are you feeling oppressed by wolves? I will stand with you if you need me to but please share how you are feeling vulnerable. Perhaps I missed it because this is cyber space and many things get lost along the way. I am sincerely offering my support if you are feeling vulnerable and weak.
Spenlake, I thought you were opening this thread to DISCUSS the prophecy but didn't realize you were SEEKING counsel. I am sorry for being insensitive.
Quest,
I didn't communicate very clearly again. Sorry. I am not feeling oppressed by this prophecy myself, now. I did post this for discussion and have appreciated the ideas (except for a few interuptions). There are those now in North Heights that are oppressed, whether they feel it or not, because false threats endorsed by leadership are oppressive. The children of Israel were oppressed by false prophets even when they liked them and "felt" good as we see in Jer 5quote:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love it so!
But what will you do at the end of it?
Falsely claiming to speak for God is inherently oppressive, no matter on what topic. I 'll take an OV example that you can resonate with. If I claim that God Himself is saying He created the devil evil along with creating mankind for satan to torment and that His death is only valid for some - every one on this site would explode! I am grateful for that - they would look out for me and attempt to do so with scriptures. This is the proper response to such lies. I think that it is the proper response to all such lies. We all have "poke points" that we are sensitive to. Those who have been injured by hyper-Calvinism (which gratefully I haven't experienced) will be sensitive to abuses there. I have seen abuses of prophecy and "spirits" and my threads have been attempts to understand what God has really said and discuss this issue. Knowing what God has really said is where we find true comfort, foundations, and security.
What I meant to say earlier is that I spent decades among those who were testing prophecy freestyle or "internally," either individually or as a group. The rationale regarding testing the "words" that was used and which allowed this to happen was (if I understand you correctly) very similar to yours. While your "feelings" might provide a measure of protection, especially in the face of a charlatan or malicious cheat, my experience and observation has been that they are weak in the face of sincere, kind, and loving "prophets" who are simply deceived. Moreover, I believe your statement below. You have demonstrated it in your posts. quote:
Spenlake, I care VERY much for people who are thrown to wolves. When I said that I know for myself that his prophecy does not apply I meant that I can only speak for myself. I am not sure if this prophecy touches anyone's spirit in such a way that they feel moved by God. This is NOT for me to discern. On the other hand, if I felt that people were being oppressed by the word being shared then I would intervene/speak up. If I found someone feeling an overwhelming sense of shame from a word being prophesied then I would speak the truth of God to them "for there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? I do know that many have been hurt by bizarre prophecy.
Your "feelings" are of small comfort compared to what you could offer. If I take the OV example again in the fight against hyper-Calvinism. If I were "feeling" destined to damnation because I believed that God had decreed this and you came along and told me that I was not destined to damnation because you "felt" that I wasn't - you would be correct but the comfort is simply a battle of feelings. If you came with strong and well constructed understandings of the scriptures in order to show me that God Himself tells us (and therefore me) that He died for all, and that He desires for all to be saved, and that even I can believe and accept the gospel offered for me and be reconciled to God and not die, what comfort you bring to a soul oppressed by lies. This is what I see people attempting to do on this site when it is at its best.
My observations of the functioning the above quoted method is that it degenerates in the "prophetic circles" to "my prophetic stick is bigger than yours - whack whack." Because "feelings" differ and are inconclusive, when my feelings as leadership conflict with your feelings as the led, leadership's feelings are "more valid." This is why this system tends to build a hierarchy, they need one for order and authority. This is the entire battle of the reformation. The Pope claimed that he could speak for God and Luther stood and told an oppressed world "NO!" Luther's comfort was not found in his feelings but in the scriptures that he opened up to us proving that God had not said He had given to Pope authority to speak authoritatively for God according to his "feelings." God alone spoke for God and His authoritative message is now to be found in the Scriptures alone - no Pope and no prophet has the authority to add to it or authorize a deletion.
The North Heights prophecy is inherently abusive and destructive - to the church and to the sheep. It is to be objected to because it is objectionable. The injury that those on this site have experienced through hyper-Calvinism would have been even worse if people "prophecied" hyper-Calvinism in the first person as God and those that heard believed these people had God's authoirty to do so. Your feelings, though accurate in this instance, are a much weaker comfort than the true word of God offered to the oppressed.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/30/2004 2:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlakequote:
Your feelings, though accurate in this instance, are a much weaker comfort than the true word of God offered to the oppressed.
Thanks! That makes sense. I do find the MOST comfort in what the Word tells me is truth. When I am feeling doubt, shame, overwhelm....I look to the scriptures for truth and find much comfort. I agree with you, Spenlake.
sparknheartquote:
We can rejoice in knowing that our Lord will stand by those that have faith in Him, those that put their trust in Him, those that repent and surrender to His will.
Amen! When I am feeling the most vulnerable I take heart in knowing that God is standing by me too. He is our solid ROCK!
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/2/2004 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/2/2004 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Quest,
I was re-reading my previous post and I think that it has an arrogant "tone" and I am sorry for that and I ask you to overlook it if you can. I think that I am reacting so strongly as I have been and seen many who were oppressed by prophecies similar to this one and few or none came to offer shelter. When "feeling" is the measure and your "feeling" is only good for you, leaving me outside for the wolves to oppress because my faith is weak - this makes me sad. I wish that there were more people who could show those who are oppressed with the very Words of God that these abusive and manipulative prophecies are not to be feared. Not to be feared because of objective truth and not "feelings" (yours or mine).
Again, please pardon the tone and look to the issue.
Spen,
this is a very interesting thread. It's apparent that you've been burned before with prophetic ministry. Me too. I've not heard one "strongly corrective" prophesy that seemed to be the Holy Spirit. I've been in meetings when the pastor got up and balanced or corrected the prophet. Usually though, nothing is said. I so enjoyed John Bevere's "Thus Saith the Lord". He gives numerous true-life examples of him and others being sadly misguided by prophecies. As you talk though of how to discern, I would take issue a bit. One can know every written word backwards and forwards and still be at a loss to judge a prophecy. there are scriptures that can backup opposing words. for example, there are times in scripture that God has said"wait" and other times he has said"go". If a prophecy said, for example, build your sanctuary now and bigger, One oculd come up with scriptural backup, or scriptural back-down!! So discerment is still absolutely needed. And gathering with other saints is scriptural. Remember Paul holding meetings about the Judaisers? We must be able to hear God's voice and to know His timing.
On tithing: Do you not hold this as a scriptural mandate for modern believers? Do you say that the prophecy seemed to hold this view? I could not get the whole thing on my computer...if it's not too long could you give us the whole thing?
Barry
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/2/2004 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Barry,
If you're interested in tithing itself, start a thread. Perhaps there are others as well.
No, tithing is a lesser issue. I was hoping for input on my other questions... can you see that a prophet may say something "scriptural" but not "relevant" for the hour? | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/3/2004 2:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Barry,
If you're interested in tithing itself, start a thread. Perhaps there are others as well.
No, tithing is a lesser issue. I was hoping for input on my other questions... can you see that a prophet may say something "scriptural" but not "relevant" for the hour?
I think that this is very possible. If I came to you and said, "Thus saith the Lord, "Do not commit adultery and if you do you are in danger of damnation." This would be a "true" prophecy. It may not be relevant to the one I spoke to, but it would not be false because God does say this.
On a different level, there could be a prophecy given to a group in which it was applicable to only one person. I will give you an example of a prophecy that was instrumental in my life. During my engagement, my fiancee struggled from time to time with doubts, fear, etc. One Sunday morning we met before church after she had had a rough night wrestling with doubt. She had a "feeling" or impression of that God was saying something like, "You have this bag of expectations that you are holding on to so tight but you need to let go of it. If not, when you finally open it up you will find an empty sack." This "impression" was just that, an impression that she shared with me. We went to her church and a man gave a prophecy. This man didn't really know her or our situation. His prophecy went something like, "My daughter, I see a table set with four places on one side, a place on each end, and then one place before you. Each place has a wonderful sumptious banquet set in front of it but each cuisine is different. Instead of enjoying the banquet I have set in front of you, you keep looking at the other places." The pastor then got up and gave his sermon on, "laying down your expectations."
I share this personal experience as an example. I still couldn't claim that all those words spoken and impressions were "certainly" God. I believe that God used them to speak to us, but my wife wouldn't have been "sinning" to break up with me and marry someone else. The prophecy was spoken to the group but began with "my daughter." I suppose there could have been many women that could have found comfort in the prophecy. I believe that the concept/idea of submitting our own expectations to God's and trusting Him to carry us is scriptural. There was no specific "direction" given as to how GOd was commanding my finacee to act regarding me. She had freedom to accept the prophecy and freedom to reject it regarding our engagement.
This same truth could have been brought to us through a man clearly opening the scriptures and explaining how God is trustworthy and that we can lay down our expectations and have confidence in Him and His will for us. As it was, I think that we had appetites that were looking for something more dramatic and God was gracious to me and to us and kept us in spite of our appetites.
It turned out that our marriage has been a happy and joyful one. But I don't think that I can still claim more for that "word" than what it was. In as much as it brought into focus at that time a truth/concept that is biblical about trusting God, it was God speaking. If someone had attempted to go further and tell my fiancee "thus saith the Lord, marry him" then it would have been wrong, even if the guy hadn't known her so that it appeared to be some miracle. The fact that in retrospect we have enjoyed our marriage doesn't mean that it was God or wasn't God. It just is. We can confidently know, however, and be assured that God is loving and kind and that His plans and expections for us that He offers in Christ are good, good eternally. He may lead us through massive suffering and pain in this first life but this will seem small once we reach eternity and begin to experience the fullness of His promises to us.
Spen Lake
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