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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/28/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | I just received the UP.to.Date, a monthly newsletter from North Heights Lutheran Church. This is a public document sent to members and non-members with a circulation of many thousand. The article covering the entire front page is "A Prophetic Word for North Heights." The following are excerpts of the introduction and prophecy. The full prophecy can be found at http://www.nhlc.org/Media/MediaManager/Oct04UTDw.pdf
The prophecy ends with a threat to those who reject it as truth.
quote:
With the formation of the Prophetic Round Table (PRT), we have a team in place to receive and discern words of prophecy, and to bless, shepherd, and pastor the prophets in our body. The PRT recently received the following word from Kathy Morgan, one of the Lord's body at North Heights who is emerging and growing in this gifting.
The Council of Elders and the PRT submit this word to you, the body called North Heights Lutheran Church. Please read, discern, and pray about what we believe God is saying to His Church in this prophetic word. This word is somewhat "directive" and "corrective" so please prayerfully consider it with the love and the grace with which it was communicated to us.
We believe that this is a true word from the Lord, and we desire that it be received and acted upon by each of us, individually, who love this church and wish to honor and obey our Lord. If you sense God's insight and wish to share it with us, you may respond to the Council via e-mail at council@nhlc.org.
...
The money. Oh my, the money. How tragic that this church would have budget cuts...Begin by praying for the leadership and stop grumbling. Stop it! Your leadership is doing the best that they can...Stop hoarding. You should never have to hear another tithing talk. You need to get this. To understand. It's all mine. Everything you have....
...
This word is hard to hear. Some will hear it with their ears or see it in print with their eyes and have greatful hearts that they know they are listening to me. They share their time and their resources. They seek me daily. Others will bristle. They will grumble. They will reject this as truth. For the enemy is lying to their spirits. But what a sad day for them if this is what they choose. For they will flounder and they will not be given the blessing that I have planned for them - and I desire to pour over them.
Is this appropriate and do we have the right to "speak in the first person for God" and state that from Heaven God looks down and considers it a tragedy that North Heights needs to cut its budget? Does failure to believe that God is speaking this to us in the first person really mean that the enemy is lying to my spirit and that I will flounder and not receive the blessing that God has for me. Does this annul the promise of God in Ephesians 1 when he tells us, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/28/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
The money. Oh my, the money. How tragic that this church would have budget cuts...Begin by praying for the leadership and stop grumbling. Stop it! Your leadership is doing the best that they can...Stop hoarding. You should never have to hear another tithing talk. You need to get this. To understand. It's all mine. Everything you have....
...
This word is hard to hear. Some will hear it with their ears or see it in print with their eyes and have greatful hearts that they know they are listening to me. They share their time and their resources. They seek me daily. Others will bristle. They will grumble. They will reject this as truth. For the enemy is lying to their spirits. But what a sad day for them if this is what they choose. For they will flounder and they will not be given the blessing that I have planned for them - and I desire to pour over them.
Hi spen,
This is just your basic manipulative (cultish) appeal for cash. If I've heard this sort of thing once, I've heard it a 1000 times in churches. And it's quite transparent to those who have even a basic degree of spiritual discernment.
This church is one of the largest churches in the Minneaoplis area with significant influence in our city. It would be nice if it were simply a minor church of wackos. It is a fact, however, that they are considered a respected "leader" in our city. Dr. Boyd has preached at their Conference on the Holy Spirit along with Rick Joyner, John Paul Jackson, and others. There seems to have been those on this board that seem to think that concerns regarding prophecy and spiritual experiences are "fringe" and unnecessary. I posted this simply to point out that it is very much "main stream" and affects and impacts the lives of many Christians.
John, I don't think that I agree with your comment, "This is just your basic manipulative (cultish) appeal for cash." I personally know the "prophetess" and she has visited my home and I ate breakfast with her husband this morning to discuss the "word." They are kind, nice and sincere people (I don't know the entire board, but the ones I know and have spoken with seem noble enough). The issue for me isn't "crass manipulation" but defective understandings and beliefs regarding the work of the Spirit and the place and role of prophecy in the lives of individuals and the church today. I believe in "modern prophecy." I don't believe that the one presented to North Heights and endorsed by their leadership is God speaking in the first person His words and concerns regarding cutting the budget.
There is a monumental lack of understanding and discernment for this kind of thing to happen in such a large and influential church by sincere and good people. I believe that the leadership is wrong and it is because of defective beliefs, not bad people. I never thought Dr. Boyd was insincere about his desires to draw near to God that he communicated in his book. I just thought he was wrong, not crass. I think that this is the same here with the "prophetess" and their leadership. We are simply witnessing the cost of defective beliefs in public on a massive scale. This is the issue that I ponder because the people I know aren't "bad" or malicious.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/28/2004 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi spen,
That it just how I perceived it. I don't buy the whole, "you've gotta pay your 10% or you're stealing from God and are under a curse" line. I find no New Testament support for the practice. To attempt to add weight to such a pronouncement by saying "GOD is saying this..." is to my mind manipulative and cultish. Paul said we were to give willingly, not of constraint. Also, large numbers are not a reliable indicator of scripturally sound doctrine, nor are they evidence of God's blessing on a group.
If numbers were what proved God's blessing on a movement, then we should ALL be bowing to kiss the Pope's ring.
FWIW,
John
I don't beleive that the OT Laws on temple worship and the financial support that God provided for the temple system with the tithe are valid now either. I believe that they can be very manipulative. My father is pastor of a church where tithing was mandatory for all members and that for a member to leave the church it had to be by mutual consent!
My point is that cultish behaviors and abusive "prophecies" are not necessariy the result of malicious people attempting to exploit their followers. The "charlatans" are the easy ones to discern. What is more destructive is honest, kind, and sincere people that are following defective beliefs. It is these people who, because they are honest, are not easy to discern as destructive. My father is kind and really believes that you will be cursed if you don't tithe. In his mind, he is being as kind and loving as he can to help you in this area and bring you into blessings. The problem is, if God calls me blessed my father's conviction that I am cursed has no weight. Thank God that He became a curse for us when he was nailed to a tree and that I don't have to live in fear.
Spen Lake
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feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/28/2004 1:37 PM (GMT -6) | | I am more irritated with the first words...as if we need to assemble a team of people before God can give words of prophecy. How arrogant!
Anyone who tries to get people to tithe is simply trying to find a way for a steady income for their church and is not trusting the Lord. I question the closeness such people have to the Lord, given that such behavior shows a lack of love. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/28/2004 3:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I agree with this approach and part of my discussion was to ask where in scriptures it states that God considers it a tragedy that North Heights Lutheran Church must cut its budget. There are many examples where God's servants went without and God didn't consider it tragic. Paul himself told us that he had learned to be content when abounding and in lack.
To me, it was hard to tell if the "prophetess" was trying to perhaps use sarcasm to make her point when she said, "The money. Oh my, the money. How tragic that this church would have budget cuts..."
Other than that, the rest of it seemed to me to be just plain silly. I seriously doubt that God would waste his words on such inconsequential matters.
Again, the whole thing to me smacks of cultish mind control methods; i.e., "Begin by praying for the leadership and stop grumbling. Stop it! Your leadership is doing the best that they can..." This is a commonly used tactic to "keep the sheep in line." It is basically the same thing as the worn-out, "Touch not mine anointed!!!" scare tactic, used to deflect any criticism of the leadership and to demonize any who would be so presumptuous as to question "God's anointed."
When God speaks through prophecy in the Bible and today, it generally should be a call to repentance, faith, spiritual correction (not cultish mind control), edification, strengthening, and encouragement of the body, not, "Pay your tithes, you bums! And don't criticize the leadership!!!" 
2c more
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/28/2004 3:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I agree with this approach and part of my discussion was to ask where in scriptures it states that God considers it a tragedy that North Heights Lutheran Church must cut its budget. There are many examples where God's servants went without and God didn't consider it tragic. Paul himself told us that he had learned to be content when abounding and in lack.
To me, it was hard to tell if the "prophetess" was trying to perhaps use sarcasm to make her point when she said, "The money. Oh my, the money. How tragic that this church would have budget cuts..."
Other than that, the rest of it seemed to me to be just plain silly. I seriously doubt that God would waste his words on such inconsequential matters.
Again, the whole thing to me smacks of cultish mind control methods; i.e., "Begin by praying for the leadership and stop grumbling. Stop it! Your leadership is doing the best that they can..." This is a commonly used tactic to "keep the sheep in line." It is basically the same thing as the worn-out, "Touch not mine anointed!!!" scare tactic, used to deflect any criticism of the leadership and to demonize any who would be so presumptuous as to question "God's anointed."
When God speaks through prophecy in the Bible and today, it generally should be a call to repentance, faith, spiritual correction (not cultish mind control), edification, strengthening, and encouragement of the body, not, "Pay your tithes, you bums! And don't criticize the leadership!!!"
2c more
I agree with you that it is inherently manipulative. I don't believe that the people themselves want to exploit the congregation for their own benefit. I would believe that they are doing it from good motives and a desire to "help." We have seen many instances on this site where spiritual experiences are considered valid and good if they "help."
I think that we both agree, howver, that the appearance of "helping" is not the ultimate standard of measure. The scriptures alone are the final authority. Sincere and kind people who believe they are helping with spiritual experiences and "words" from God still need to be judged by the objective standard of scripture. Pragmatism and "it worked" are not sufficient to declare a belief "true."
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/28/2004 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake, when it comes to prophecy... I believe the best thing a person can do is to look for the fruit. Take each prophecy you hear before God and ask God to reveal any truth from it that applies to your life. The Holy Spirit is with us to help us discern. We do not need to be manipulated by mortal words for we have the Spirit of God living in us.
In my experience God usually communicates to me repeatedly through many means if he is trying to speak truth into my life. Sometimes a word of prophecy can fit within what God is already speaking to me. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/29/2004 4:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake I am confused on how you addressed my post? I am not sure where you are coming from with your response?
I wrote "when it comes to prophecy... I believe the best thing a person can do is to look for the fruit."
You responded, " Is what your saying sciptural? Judging prophecy seems to be more than a group of people "feeling" together in unison. There seems to be a process of "comparison to an objective measure" commanded by Paul"
My response: Testing the fruit is definitely scriptural. I don't know where you got feeling out of that?
I wrote, "Take each prophecy you hear before God and ask God to reveal any truth from it that applies to your life. The Holy Spirit is with us to help us discern."
You responded, " The children of Israel went into captivity because they would not listen to the words of the true prophets God sent them and instead they followed the false ones. God's written truth is not "relative" such that a passage of scripture can have one meaning for you and another meaning for me. I would hope that we all believe that the scriptures have only one true meaning and we are all simply trying to discover it. It seems to me that this concept is what fuels much of the debate on this site."
My response: The bible tells us that we have the Holy Spirit to guide us and help us discern.
I wrote,"In my experience God usually communicates to me repeatedly through many means if he is trying to speak truth into my life. Sometimes a word of prophecy can fit within what God is already speaking to me."
You responded, "God does speak to us subjectively and we do receive "impressions" and feelings that are from God. We also receive feelings from other spirits, and feelings from the little bit of undigested beef. What I am arguing is that we are overstating own own limits of discernment to declare a feeling or a subjective "word" as authoritative and binding from God. "
My response: If what is being prophesied bears fruit and applies to how God is moving and speaking to us in other parts of our lives then I say listen BUT ALWAYS seek GOD for discernment. "If a child asks for bread would you give him a stone... How much more will the Heavenly Father give good gifts for those who ASK." If you ASK God for discernment -- He answers and gives you the discernment you need.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/29/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Spenlake I am confused on how you addressed my post? I am not sure where you are coming from with your response?
I wrote "when it comes to prophecy... I believe the best thing a person can do is to look for the fruit."
You responded, " Is what your saying sciptural? Judging prophecy seems to be more than a group of people "feeling" together in unison. There seems to be a process of "comparison to an objective measure" commanded by Paul"
My response: Testing the fruit is definitely scriptural. I don't know where you got feeling out of that?
I wrote, "Take each prophecy you hear before God and ask God to reveal any truth from it that applies to your life. The Holy Spirit is with us to help us discern."
You responded, " The children of Israel went into captivity because they would not listen to the words of the true prophets God sent them and instead they followed the false ones. God's written truth is not "relative" such that a passage of scripture can have one meaning for you and another meaning for me. I would hope that we all believe that the scriptures have only one true meaning and we are all simply trying to discover it. It seems to me that this concept is what fuels much of the debate on this site."
My response: The bible tells us that we have the Holy Spirit to guide us and help us discern.
I wrote,"In my experience God usually communicates to me repeatedly through many means if he is trying to speak truth into my life. Sometimes a word of prophecy can fit within what God is already speaking to me."
You responded, "God does speak to us subjectively and we do receive "impressions" and feelings that are from God. We also receive feelings from other spirits, and feelings from the little bit of undigested beef. What I am arguing is that we are overstating own own limits of discernment to declare a feeling or a subjective "word" as authoritative and binding from God. "
My response: If what is being prophesied bears fruit and applies to how God is moving and speaking to us in other parts of our lives then I say listen BUT ALWAYS seek GOD for discernment. "If a child asks for bread would you give him a stone... How much more will the Heavenly Father give good gifts for those who ASK." If you ASK God for discernment -- He answers and gives you the discernment you need.
Quest,
I was not very articulate in my response and thank you for your questions. I don't think that scriptures tell us to judge prophecy by its fruit (hang with me and don't react yet). It is the prophets themselves that we are to judge by their "fruits." I was muddy in what I said but this is what I had in mind. The most well known passage in Matthew 7 says, quote:
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. “You will know them by their fruits.
There are numerous times in the scriptures in which false and malicious men speak the true words of God prophetically. The words and prophecies of Baalam in Numbers are "true" and not "false" although Baalam was proved false and condemned right through to Jude and Revelation. quote:
And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him. He took up his discourse and said...Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam...But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel
Another excellent example is John 11 with a malicious evil high priest plotting to kill a perfect, sinless man. quote:
But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
These are two examples where clearly the prophecies are true and from God but the men are false "prophets".
When you say, "Take each prophecy you hear before God and ask God to reveal any truth from it that applies to your life. The Holy Spirit is with us to help us discern." I see you being "vague" about how God reveals it is true. What is the means by which you are claiming this happens? I simply assumed that you meant an "inner witness" or a burning in your bosom. If you mean that you discern it through scriptures then I do agree with you.
Finally, Quest, you say, quote:
If what is being prophesied bears fruit and applies to how God is moving and speaking to us in other parts of our lives then I say listen BUT ALWAYS seek GOD for discernment. "If a child asks for bread would you give him a stone... How much more will the Heavenly Father give good gifts for those who ASK." If you ASK God for discernment -- He answers and gives you the discernment you need
I believe that God has commanded the "means" by which He has declared that He will give discernment. To take the OV approach on God limiting Himself, I believe He has "self-limited" the way that we are to seek authoritative discernment to His written word. We can have feelings and impressions that come from His Spirit and other spirits. These are not sin nor are they "certain." If we ask God for bread and then look for Him to provide it someplace else than the "means" that He has told us, we can find a snake for ourselves. This is no different in concept to us asking God for the bread of salvation and then "finding" it in Buddah or Mormonism. We are to find bread where He told us to look and nowhere else.
We both may believe that the above prophecy is not 100% true. I believe that the above prophecy is not true because I see inconsistencies between the prophecy and scripture. Why would you believe it is not true? It seems to me, if I understand your position, that you believe that it is not true because of in inner feeling that you consider to be the Holy Spirit and the "fruit" or effect the words have on you internally. Do I understand you?
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/29/2004 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We both may believe that the above prophecy is not 100% true. I believe that the above prophecy is not true because I see inconsistencies between the prophecy and scripture. Why would you believe it is not true? It seems to me, if I understand your position, that you believe that it is not true because of in inner feeling that you consider to be the Holy Spirit and the "fruit" or effect the words have on you internally. Do I understand you?
I am not sure if this prophecy is true or not. I think we agree that if there are inconsistencies between the prophecy and scripture then it is void of truth. On the other hand, I think that we need to take everything before God in prayer and ask God to reveal any truth that may be in the prophecy.
As far as how I do this.... I ask God to press it on my heart so that it burns in such a way that I know that I know that I know it is God. I ask God to bring other people into my path that will confirm the prophecy. I ask God to reveal the truth in scripture in regard to the prophecy. I WAIT upon the Lord, especially if it is significant. Does that answer your question? | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/29/2004 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
We both may believe that the above prophecy is not 100% true. I believe that the above prophecy is not true because I see inconsistencies between the prophecy and scripture. Why would you believe it is not true? It seems to me, if I understand your position, that you believe that it is not true because of in inner feeling that you consider to be the Holy Spirit and the "fruit" or effect the words have on you internally. Do I understand you?
I am not sure if this prophecy is true or not. I think we agree that if there are inconsistencies between the prophecy and scripture then it is void of truth. On the other hand, I think that we need to take everything before God in prayer and ask God to reveal any truth that may be in the prophecy.
As far as how I do this.... I ask God to press it on my heart so that it burns in such a way that I know that I know that I know it is God. I ask God to bring other people into my path that will confirm the prophecy. I ask God to reveal the truth in scripture in regard to the prophecy. I WAIT upon the Lord, especially if it is significant. Does that answer your question?
I think that I understand better, but there is still ambiguity for me. I see several items:
1. A burning in your bosom.
2. The opinions of other people.
3. Scripture
4. Waiting (which I am not sure what this means except that you wait until one of the 3 above meets your criteria?)
Which one of these 3 actually determines whether the prophecy is true, especially when one of these are lacking or they conflict with each other? In some cases, is a burning in your bosom sufficient to know with "certainty" that a prophecy is true? If you experience a burning and other people confirm it as valid and yet you find no scripture to explicitly confirm it - could you consider the prophecy to be certainly true? What happens after "waiting" and what are you "waiting" for exactly?
You are not sure if the above prophecy is true or not, yet this same prophecy threatens you if you don't acknowedge it is true with being lied to by Satan, floundering and not receiving the blessing of God. If this is God truly speaking, it is extremely important to know and be certain. The threat is not insignificant.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/29/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
You are not sure if the above prophecy is true or not, yet this same prophecy threatens you if you don't acknowedge it is true with being lied to by Satan, floundering and not receiving the blessing of God. If this is God truly speaking, it is extremely important to know and be certain. The threat is not insignificant.
Isn't the threat one of the reasons why the prophecy does not line up with scripture?
I don't think that a threat in itself doesn't line up with scriptures. The scriptures are full of threats. Deut 28:15-68 is a continual threat against those who fail to keep the commands of God. Throughout the Gospels and the New Testament we find, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." The Law is without teeth and ineffective without the threat. It goes back to the garden when God said in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. One reason that the gospel is not valued is that the threat of death and judgment has been obscured or weakened.
What is not scriptural about the threat is what it is applied to. If it were a true word of God, then to fail to obey would be listening to the devil and cause us to lose the blessing because we would be sinning. The problem is that a man is using the threat of God to give authority and impart fear to their own words. This is what is wrong. This is why God says in Deut 18, quote:
“When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
The threat is ineffective and false because what was spoken on behalf of God is false. If I come to you and threaten you with, "If you commit adultery you are in danger of damnation and hell for eternity," I would be speaking the truth and the threat would be valid and from God Himself because He has already explicitly made this threat in writing.
No threat, no gospel.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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| Posted 9/29/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You are not sure if the above prophecy is true or not, yet this same prophecy threatens you if you don't acknowedge it is true with being lied to by Satan, floundering and not receiving the blessing of God. If this is God truly speaking, it is extremely important to know and be certain. The threat is not insignificant
Spenlake, I am NOT threatened by this prophecy because I do not feel God speaking to ME through it. Perhaps you don't agree but I know when I am being let by God. I know I am NOT being led by God with this prophecy. I do not know if it is true for others -- that is what I meant.
As far as the three criteria that you listed. The MOST important thing to me, and something we definitely agree on, is what the Word of God says. If a prophecy does not line up with the Word then I dismiss it. But, even if a word of prophecy does line up with scriptures I still need to pray. I might ask those closest to me to pray for discernment too if it was a major word.
I cannot even tell you in words how I know but I know when God is speaking to my Spirit. I know when I am being moved by the Spirit. I know that when I am in right relationship with God that I have the Holy Spirit within me to lead me and give me discernment when I need it. "I know my Shepherd's voice"
As far as waiting goes.... I do not immediately take in a word of prophecy. I wait and pray and seek God's leading. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/29/2004 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
You are not sure if the above prophecy is true or not, yet this same prophecy threatens you if you don't acknowedge it is true with being lied to by Satan, floundering and not receiving the blessing of God. If this is God truly speaking, it is extremely important to know and be certain. The threat is not insignificant
Spenlake, I am NOT threatened by this prophecy because I do not feel God speaking to ME through it. Perhaps you don't agree but I know when I am being let by God. I know I am NOT being led by God with this prophecy. I do not know if it is true for others -- that is what I meant.
As far as the three criteria that you listed. The MOST important thing to me, and something we definitely agree on, is what the Word of God says. If a prophecy does not line up with the Word then I dismiss it. But, even if a word of prophecy does line up with scriptures I still need to pray. I might ask those closest to me to pray for discernment too if it was a major word.
I cannot even tell you in words how I know but I know when God is speaking to my Spirit. I know when I am being moved by the Spirit. I know that when I am in right relationship with God that I have the Holy Spirit within me to lead me and give me discernment when I need it. "I know my Shepherd's voice"
As far as waiting goes.... I do not immediately take in a word of prophecy. I wait and pray and seek God's leading.
Quest saysquote:
Spenlake, I am NOT threatened by this prophecy because I do not feel God speaking to ME through it. Perhaps you don't agree but I know when I am being let by God. I know I am NOT being led by God with this prophecy. I do not know if it is true for others -- that is what I meant.
I believe that this statement illustrates your discernment method. You "know" that you are not being led by this prophecy because of an unexplainable feeling. I appreciate your honesty and believe that you experience this undefinable feeling. I also think that in this case it concurs with the Biblical evidence. It concerns me that you might believe that this prophecy is "true for others." I can promise you that the Bible and scriptures nowhere explicitly affirm that God considers it a tragedy that North Heights Church needs to cut its budget. This is what God says to one poor church in revelation. quote:
‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. ‘Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
Anybody claiming God considers the fact that North Heights needs to reign in its spending is a tragedy is not supported by scripture. This "prophet" and "endorsing leadership" don't have the authority of God to oppress His sheep with falsehood under the threat of God's judgment. Instead we see God blesses this church in Smyrna and allows the devil to come and test them. How is this a tragedy in God's eyes? It is disappointing that your "feeling" discerner that cannot help those in North Heights that may be oppressed by a false prophecy. What comfort your discerner offers to those who come under guilt and condemnation, fearful about the devil lying to them and floundering, losing the blessing of God because of this word and the endorsement of the leadership. I tell you clearly that this is not God's word for them either - they need have no fear.
quote:
others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
quote:
Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction.
quote:
If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses
quote:
Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,” so that we confidently say,
“THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID.
WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?”
Spen Lake
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