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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/5/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
You are simply reading INTO the text your own presupposition, and thus reject the very purpose for which God inspired these words to be written in the first place.
Could this possibly apply to you also, John?
So you don't deny it applies to you? 
But seriously, when the Scripture says they rejected God's purpose for themselves (God's personal desire for them personally), I take that to mean that they in fact rejected God's purpose for themselves. If God had wanted to state it any more clearly, it is not clear how He could have.
I am taking the passage in its plain meaning. The passage says that these men rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not "they rejected the purpose of God for themselves, which was actually God's purpose." Are you a Kerry supporter or something? 
The Kerry thing is a shot blelow the belt  !
I still believe their is a difference between the counsel and purpose of God. The counsel is relative, and purpoe is absolute. Examples of God's counsel is the Law, the word of the prophets, the words of Jesus and His disciples that followed; all were eventually rejected by the people of Israel, with the exception of the remnant which God has always kept to Himself. Those who did not believe, were appoint as such (1 Peter 2:8).
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/5/2004 3:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott-
quote:
How do you square that view with Hebrews 4:3-4??
Hebrews 4:3 "...although the works occur from the disruption of the world..."
This speaks of the creation account given in Gen. 1:3 - 2:3, in which God stopped from His work on the seventh day. This took place after the disruption which took place sometime between Gen. 1:1 and verse 2.
quote:
First of all, this is a bit equivocal. How do we know that the eonian times did not start after the Fall? Second, the body of Christ could have been originally purposed without redemption as necessary (had the Fall not occurred).
I believe that time begins to be reckoned at Gen. 1:1, when God created the heavens and the earth. We are not told how long this first eon was which resulted in the disruption as evidenced by verse 2. When God created the heavens and the earth, which we live in now, in Gen 1:3-2:3 then began a new eon. This eon will come to an end when Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth.
I belive that man sinning was a part of God's plan. I believe God, when He was all alone (ALL in God) put together this blueprint before the eons, and now is seeing it through to the end, at which time He will be ALL in ALL (1 Cor. 15:28).
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/5/2004 3:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
I honestly get worne out from debating this stuff over and over again. You guys have more energy than I do!
I was just wondering, however, what determinists make of James' claim that "Every good and perfect gift is from above, from the Father...." It just seems to me that if James believed what theological determinists believe, namely, that everything without exception, good and evil, comes equally from the one unconditional and efficacious decree of God, he could have no reason for singling out good and perfect gifts as "coming from God." One could simply reply, "Well, sure they come from God. Everything comes from God, evil included." But if all is unconditionally decreed by God, then nothing unique is said about the good and perfect gifts in claiming these come from God. The fact would be that everything comes from God's own determination. It doesn't seem to make sense to say "good and perfect gifts" come from God if one also believes everything NOT good and perfect also comes from God.
I gotta see the spin you guys put on this one. Work your magic!
Tom
Tom,
James makes it clear to his readers that they should not say they are undergoing trial from God, because God is not tried by evils, yet He is trying no one (1:13). James goes on to explain that we are tried when drawn away and lured by our own desire. This is what leads up to his comment that every good and gracious gift comes from God.
I believe this is matter of relative and absolute. Just like the absolute is "God is love" but yet in the relative God hates sin and those who commit it. God created us in flesh with its desires which lure us away from God and brings forth sin. God does not try us, the flesh does the dirty work, and this is relative to our sinful state. In the absolute every good and gracious gift is from God. I believe this is the sum of all. Even those who experience God's just judgment, do so for their greater good in the realization of God's righteousness. God "hates" them relative to their sin, BUT the God of love will make them alive in Christ at the end of the eons.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/6/2004 3:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
lock,
quote:
quote:
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How do you square that view with Hebrews 4:3-4??
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Hebrews 4:3 "...although the works occur from the disruption of the world..."
This speaks of the creation account given in Gen. 1:3 - 2:3, in which God stopped from His work on the seventh day. This took place after the disruption which took place sometime between Gen. 1:1 and verse 2.
If you look at Hebrews 4:3 AND 4:4, you will see that the "katabole ton kosmos" could not have predated the 6 day creation.
I do not see this. The katabole is not man sinning.
Hebrews 4:3(b) "although the works occur from the disruption of the world"
What are the works spoken of here?
Hebrews 4:4(b) "God stops on the seventh day from all His works"
The katabole predates the work of God creating the heavens and the earth we now live as recorded in Gen 1:3-2:3.
The conext of Hebrews 3 and 4 is God's rest and how the Israelites failed to enter into it due to their unbelief. It would not make sense to say that "the works" of verse 3, which occurred from the katabole, are the works of the Israelites. God's work of creation, of the heavens and earth we live in now, took place after or "from the disruption of the world".
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/6/2004 3:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
quote:
If you look at Hebrews 4:3 AND 4:4, you will see that the "katabole ton kosmos" could not have predated the 6 day creation.
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I do not see this. The katabole is not man sinning.
Hebrews 4:3(b) "although the works occur from the disruption of the world"
What are the works spoken of here?
Hebrews 4:4(b) "God stops on the seventh day from all His works"
The katabole predates the work of God creating the heavens and the earth we now live as recorded in Gen 1:3-2:3.
Alright, here it is:
quote:
4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’” And yet God’s works were accomplished from the foundation of the world. 4:4 For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,”
The translation I quote seems to be the better reading. In other words, "accomplished" seems to be a better translation than "occur" because it specifically mentions God RESTING from the work on the seventh day as the proof (see the word FOR in 4:4) that the works were "accomplished" ever SINCE the "katabole ton kosmos." To put the word "occur" makes the argument from the seventh day rest meaningless. The word "for" would have no force in that case. Thus, it is no surprise that other translations have the same idea as what I'm arguing for.
If my reasoning is correct, the "katabole ton kosmos" can only be the 6 day creation, itself, or something at the end of those 6 days, like the Fall. That, of course, doesn't rule out the gap theory, but it precludes the possibility of that greek phrase being a reference to such a gap.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/6/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
If you look at Hebrews 4:3 AND 4:4, you will see that the "katabole ton kosmos" could not have predated the 6 day creation.
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I do not see this. The katabole is not man sinning.
Hebrews 4:3(b) "although the works occur from the disruption of the world"
What are the works spoken of here?
Hebrews 4:4(b) "God stops on the seventh day from all His works"
The katabole predates the work of God creating the heavens and the earth we now live as recorded in Gen 1:3-2:3.
Alright, here it is:
quote:
4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’” And yet God’s works were accomplished from the foundation of the world. 4:4 For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,”
The translation I quote seems to be the better reading. In other words, "accomplished" seems to be a better translation than "occur" because it specifically mentions God RESTING from the work on the seventh day as the proof (see the word FOR in 4:4) that the works were "accomplished" ever SINCE the "katabole ton kosmos." To put the word "occur" makes the argument from the seventh day rest meaningless. The word "for" would have no force in that case. Thus, it is no surprise that other translations have the same idea as what I'm arguing for.
If my reasoning is correct, the "katabole ton kosmos" can only be the 6 day creation, itself, or something at the end of those 6 days, like the Fall. That, of course, doesn't rule out the gap theory, but it precludes the possibility of that greek phrase being a reference to such a gap.
Jefscott-
The Greek translated "accomplished" in the translation you gave is ginomai. I referenced this in my Strong's concordance and found this...
to cause to be, generate, to become (come into being).
Nothing here indicates "finished" or "accomplished"
Thus, the verse states that God's work of creation occurred between the katabole of the world and the seventh day in which God stopped from His work of creating. There is no reason to think that the katabole occurred sometime during the 6 days of creating. Gen. 1:2 tells us that "the earth was ( became) without form (tohu) and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep." I believe that this is the result of the katabole of the world because God did not create the world tohu (Isa 45:18). I do not believe that the katabole is the creation or the "fall" of man. The katabole happened sometime between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. According to verse 1 and 2 there was already an earth and heavens here when God began to create the heavens and earth we live in now. The heavens and earth we live in now will be destroyed by fire and replaced with a new creation in the future.
I hope Sahid isn't getting sick!
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/11/2004 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
This what I have been saying; The creation work of God recorded in Gen 1:3-2:3 happened "since" or "from" the katabole of the kosmos, which took place sometime between verse 1 and 2. The order follows; Gen 1:1 God created the heavens and the earth ( between verse 1 and 2 the katabole of the kosmos occurred) Gen. 1:2 the world became without form and void and darkness was over the face of the deep (which is the result of the katabole) Gen 1:3 God begins to create the heavens and earth we live in today. Gen 2:2,3 God stops from His creating work and blesses the seventh day. Why would hte arguement concerning God's rest not make sense?
After trying to force my mind to see it your way, I can see what you're saying, but it is very ackward. It is contrary to the flow of the argument.
The phrase about how long ago God's rest began begins with an adversative, which contrasts the FUTURE entering into rest of the believers. Then, 4:4 CONFIRMS (remember the word "for") the truth of when that rest began. Your view makes 4:4 explanatory rather than confirmatory. That is why every translation I checked the other night translates 4:3 like the King James does.
Let me see if we are saying the same thing; God's work of creation is compared to the work of the Israelite (verse 10) and God stopping His work on the seventh day is compared to the Israelite entering into God's rest (verse 9, 10), right?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/12/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
Let me see if we are saying the same thing; God's work of creation is compared to the work of the Israelite (verse 10)and God stopping His work on the seventh day is compared to the Israelite entering into God's rest (verse 9, 10), right?
Don't see any problem with that take from those particular verses.
Now, you posted earlier that the disruption of the kosmos could not have predated the 6 day creation account. We agree that "foundation" is not the correct rendering of katabole, right? Katabole is should be rendered disruption or overthrow. If one were to agree that ginomai should be rendered "finished" or "accomplished" then I would agree. But, ginomai does not carry the idea of "accomplishing" something, but instead of something coming to be, or coming to pass, or occurring.
Gen 1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth which Peter confirms in 2 Peter 3:5 "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water"
Gen 1:2 states that the world became void and without form. Isa. 45:18 states that God did not create the world void, so it must have become void and without form. This also is confirmed by Peter in 2 Peter 2:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished"
Gen 1:3 begins the 6 day creation account which Peter again confirms in 2 Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
Moses, Isaiah, the writer of Hebrews and Peter together confim that, in the beginning God laid the "foundation" (themelios) of the earth (Heb. 1:10), the earth became void and without form when it was "overthrown" by water, then God created the earth we know now, which is held in reserve unto fire. This is my belief and why I believe that the katabole predates the 6 day creation account and I do not see this conflicting with what is stated in Heb. 4:3, 4.
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/12/2004 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
quote:
If one were to agree that ginomai should be rendered "finished" or "accomplished" then I would agree. But, ginomai does not carry the idea of "accomplishing" something, but instead of something coming to be, or coming to pass, or occurring.
But even the idea, "occurred," in a context which is explaining how long ago something was done has the same import. The works occurred or happened and, as such, have been done SINCE THE KATABOLE TON KOSMOS.
quote:
Gen 1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth which Peter confirms in 2 Peter 3:5 "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water"
Gen 1:2 states that the world became void and without form. Isa. 45:18 states that God did not create the world void, so it must have become void and without form. This also is confirmed by Peter in 2 Peter 2:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished
Gen 1:3 begins the 6 day creation account which Peter again confirms in 2 Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.""
How do you know these verses don't refer to Noah's flood and the pre-flood heavens and earth? And the word ginomai can mean "come into being" as it does in John 1. The equivalent verb in Hebrew can also if I'm not mistaken.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/13/2004 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/18/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
I was thinking about your questioning whether Satan was created in the 6 day creation account or before. I think the answer lies in who sinned first Adam or Satan? Most would agree that Satan sinned before Adam. Romans 5:12 tells us that sin entered this world through Adam. If Satan had been created in the 6-day creation account and sinned before tempting Eve, then sin would have entered through Satan, not Adam. With this in mind, it logically fits that "in the beginning" God created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1) and this earth became void and without form when Satan sinned (Gen. 1:2) and then in Gen 1:3-2:3 God created the world we know now, which upon Adam's sin, God subjected this world to vanity (Rom. 8:20).
I don't see how it makes any difference as to who sinned first between Satan and Adam. Eve ate of the tree before Adam, but that did not cause death to enter the world. Adam seems to have been the head/father of the human race - not Satan or Eve.
Moreover, the decalogue says God made the heavens and earth and ALL that is in them in 6 days. That would seem to include Satan and the rest of the angels. Why would God re-create the earth just to make it a war zone from existing evil agents? Doesn't really square with the idea of "very good," to me.
Do you think that Gen. 1:1-3 is all on day one of the creation account? Gen. 1:2 states that the earth was void and without form and Isa. 45:18 says that God did NOT create the world void. How do you account for this? God did not create the earth void and yet in verse 2 it is void and without form. Why does God re-create the world after the white throne judgment? He has a purpose for all that He does. When God states that the creation was "very good" He meant it was exactly what He wanted. The creation was very good and yet Adam still sinned. To say that God created Adam never intending him to sin would make God a failure. To say that God created Satan never intending for Satan to sin would also make God a failure.
All that God does is marked with a divine structure, which can be seen in the eons...
Before eonian times (All is in God)
A.The beginning (Gen. 1:1) to the katabole (Gen 1:2).
B.The katabole (Gen 1:2) to the 6 day creation account.
C. The 6 day creation account to the deluge (flood)
C. The flood to the 2nd coming of Christ
B. The Millennial reign of Christ
A. The new heavens and new earth to the consummation
After the eons (God is All in All)
Using this structure and looking a the 2 letter B's, this speaks of the kingdom of the Messiah, where Isreal will take its place above the nations and with Christ, rule over them. This kingdom has been made ready "since" the katabole (Matt. 25:34) thus connecting the 2 letter B's above.
The letter A's find their connection and involves the body of Christ, which Paul spoke of in his letters to the Gentile churches. Paul speaks of election "before" the katabole (Eph. 1:4). As members of the body we are told that we do not struggle against flesh and blood but against sovereignties and authorities, with world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials (Eph. 6:12) thus connecting the 2 letter A's above. This tells me that spiritual wickedness entered the first creation and the katabole was the result between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 causing the earth to become void and without form.
Isreal's inheritance deals with the earth and flesh and blood and was made ready "from" the katabole. Our inheritance, as the body of Christ, deals with the celestials, spiritual wickedness, and we were elected in Christ "before" the katabole. We are new creations in Christ.
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