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|  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/8/2004 9:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | Cantor’s Theorem: For any set X, the power set of X is cardinally larger than X.
Let X be any set and P(X) its power set.
What’s a power set? Well, given a set X, the power set is the set of all subsets of X and is known as P(X). Power sets are larger than the sets associated with them. For example, suppose set X is the numbers 1 and 2, so X = (1,2). The power set of X, or P(X), would consist of {1}{2}{1,2}{}. The last {} is an empty set, which is a subset of all sets (never mind why right now).
Straight lines || are used to denote the cardinality or size of a set. So, |X|2 tells us that the set X has 2 elements in it. But the power set of X, or P(X), has a greater cardinality. In this case |P(X)|4, or the power set P(X) has four members, more than the set X So Cantor’s theorem states: |X|<|P(X)|, or the cardinality of set X is strictly less than that of P(X).
I just encountered an argument against omniscience based on Cantor’s theorem. Suppose omniscience means: God knows all truths and believes no falsehoods. Let us take the set T, the set of all truths. Then take the power set P(T). To each set of the power set will correspond a truth, a truth which is not a member of the original set of all truths T. There are then more truths than there are members of the set of all truths T. Thus, there can be no set of all truths and so there can be no omniscient being. If God was omniscient, what God would know would constitute a set of all truths. But there can be no set of all truths. So there can be no omniscient God.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/8/2004 10:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sahid: When did you prove that T cannot exist?
Tom: T is, presumably, the set of ALL truths. But T's power set, P(T) contains truths that are not members of T. Thus, there are truths that exist outside of T, in which case T is not really the set of ALL truths. If you enlarge T to contain the truths that correspond to each set of P(T), to form T1 (the new and improved set of all truths), you face the same problem again with the power set of T1, or P(T1), which then contains truths not members of T1.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  scott_jorgenson Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 271 | Posted 10/8/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Originally posted by TGB
Sahid: When did you prove that T cannot exist?
Tom: T is, presumably, the set of ALL truths. But T's power set, P(T) contains truths that are not members of T.
It seems to me that the demonstration fails at this point. In what sense is some subset of all truths itself a truth?
Imagine there were only three truths in the cosmos: "The sky is blue", "Grass is green", and "Water is wet". In what sense, then, is the collection of "The sky is blue" and "water is wet" itself a truth not contained in those two individual truths? I would say, in no sense. Sets of truths are not themselves additional truths. Upon that acknowledgement, the subsequent argument against omniscience then fails.
Here's another way to look at it. Instead of truths, consider integers. I is the set of all integers, P(I) is the power set of all integers, and I' is one of the members of P(I) and thus a set of some integers - say, {1,2,3}. The argument you've related would assert that I' is itself an integer, and therefore P(I) contains more integers than I alone, thus demonstrating there is no set of all integers. But I' is not itself an integer, which is why the proof fails, for, of course, there is a set of all integers (an infinite set, but that is not pertinent).
Scott
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/8/2004 1:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Tom: T is, presumably, the set of ALL truths. But T's power set, P(T) contains truths that are not members of T.
Scott: It seems to me that the demonstration fails at this point. In what sense is some subset of all truths itself a truth?
The subsets are not themselves each a truth. But regarding each set of the power set a particular truth will exist declaring, for example, that the subset in question is a member of that set or that it is not.
More in a bit, Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/8/2004 2:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | Scott: Imagine there were only three truths in the cosmos: "The sky is blue", "Grass is green", and "Water is wet". In what sense, then, is the collection of "The sky is blue" and "water is wet" itself a truth not contained in those two individual truths? I would say, in no sense. Sets of truths are not themselves additional truths.
Tom: I think there is reason for believing Cantor’s theorem (CT) does not rule out omniscience, but I don’t wanna share what that is just yet. I wanna feel the force of the argument based on CT to the full. I’m brand new to set theory, but I think I get the point of Cantor’s theorem.
First, Cantor isn’t claiming that sets of truths are themselves additional truths. It’s rather that there are truths that describe the subsets that make up the power set and in the case of the set of all truths these truths that describe the subsets are not themselves members of the set of all truths. Take your example:
Let’s take your supposed set of all truths T. The set T has three member truths (and no more): The sky is blue. Grass is green. Water is wet.
Let these three truths be S, G, and W (just to save my fingers). These are the only truths that exist, OK?
The set of all truths T is (S, G, W) The power set of T is P(T) and is made up of ({S}{G}{W}{S, G}{S, W}{G, W}) [Heck, I'm new to this, there might be more subsets that belong to P(T), but these at least are among them.]
Now, here are the truths generated by each subset that are not members of T:
1. S is a member of T 2. G is a member of T 3. W is a member of T 4. S and G are two members of T 5. S and W are two members of T 6. G and W are two members of T 7. S, G, and W are members of T
If I understand Cantor’s theorem correctly (and I might not), these propositions are generated by the power set of T, and they are all true, and they can’t be dismissed as some clever game. Seven truths in addition to the three that you claim are the only three truths that exist. It doesn't matter how many truths you put in the set as an example, the power set will ALWAYS dominate (have more members). Granted, these additional truths are NOT members of the subsets. And the subsets themselves are NOT the additional truths that cause the problem. The particular problem is that in this instance, the set is a set OF TRUTHS.
Scott: Here's another way to look at it. Instead of truths, consider integers. I is the set of all integers, P(I) is the power set of all integers, and I' is one of the members of P(I) and thus a set of some integers - say, {1,2,3}. The argument you've related would assert that I' is itself an integer, and therefore P(I) contains more integers than I alone, thus demonstrating there is no set of all integers.
Tom: OK, keep something separate. Cantor’s theorem itself doesn’t say anything about omniscience. The argument I ran into was that of a guy who was applying Cantor’s theorem to a particular set, the set of all truths. Cantor’s theorem itself doesn’t claim that I' is an integer; it only claims that I' is a subset of the set of all integers, and that the power set P(I) is cardinally (size-wise) greater than the set of all integers I. So yes, you’re right, I' is not itself an integer. That's not what the argument is claiming. But (and here’s the point) there is a TRUTH that is generated by the subset I', and that TRUTH is “I' is a subset of the set of all integers I.” There’s no problem where the members/elements are integers, or animals, or pancakes. But there is a problem where the elements are TRUTHS. It's a unique problem that shows up ONLY with the set of all TRUTHS, and that's because it is is TRUTHS (not numbers or animals) that are generated by the subsets, truths which describe those subsets but which are not members of the supposed set of all truths. That's why Grim (the guy who argues this) says Cantor's theorem shows that there can be no set of all TRUTHS. He doesn't claim that there can't be a set of all mammals, or all members of CVM. It's JUST one set, the set of ALL truths.
Believe me, it’s a problem. Cantor’s theorem was applied to the set of all truths and to omniscience by Patrick Grim in "Logic and Limits of Knowledge and Truth" (Nous 22: 1988, 341-367). Grim and A. Plantinga had an interesting exchange over this which you can find at: http://www.sunysb.edu/philosophy/faculty/pgrim/exchange.html
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/8/2004 6:33 PM (GMT -6) |   | Oh my oh my oh my. I just read a three-page thread on Cantor's theorem and omniscience over on another discussion site. All I can say it there are some reeeealy smart people in this world and I'm not one of them. Gosh, it was soooo far beyond me.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Truth Aficionado Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003 Total Posts : 1544 | Posted 10/8/2004 6:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  markporter Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 263 | Posted 10/9/2004 12:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Hmm, I remember reading a couple of interesting articles online about this, the famous one I think being plantinga's dialogue with Grim on the topic. I tend to think that when we can't get some attribute of God/whatever to work that it's because we're trying to fit it into the wrong catergories, that what we need is not to work with the ways we look at it and find problems to solve, but to start with new fundamental categories and work from there. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/9/2004 2:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Mark: Hmm, I remember reading a couple of interesting articles online about this, the famous one I think being plantinga's dialogue with Grim on the topic. I tend to think that when we can't get some attribute of God/whatever to work that it's because we're trying to fit it into the wrong catergories, that what we need is not to work with the ways we look at it and find problems to solve, but to start with new fundamental categories and work from there.
Tom: What Plantinga does is agree with Grim that there is no "set" of all truths but deny that this is a problem for omniscience or truth. Why guy the dogma that quantification involves sets? It's plausible to think there is no "set" of all truths. Still, however, there are truths of the sort: every proposition is true or false, or (for those who deny bivalence), every proposition is either true or not-true). This doesn't require that there be a set of all truths.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Sahid Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 2013 | Posted 10/9/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: T is, presumably, the set of ALL truths. But T's power set, P(T) contains truths that are not members of T. Thus, there are truths that exist outside of T, in which case T is not really the set of ALL truths. If you enlarge T to contain the truths that correspond to each set of P(T), to form T1 (the new and improved set of all truths), you face the same problem again with the power set of T1, or P(T1), which then contains truths not members of T1.
Can you show that the sum of two or more truths is in fact a new truth. Are elements of T all truth statements? If so, then adding two statements together still leaves us with two statements, not one (at least in every language I'm familiar with or can conceive of). If not, then what truth is there that cannot be expressed as a statement? Unfortunately, if such a truth existed, you might have a tough time typing it down. You'd have to show me or let me taste it or something. Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/10/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sahid: Can you show that the sum of two or more truths is in fact a new truth.
Tom: Good point. I’d agree. But the truths that are generated by the elements of a super set are not the sum of two or more truths from the set.
From above:
quote: The set of all truths T is (S, G, W) The power set of T is P(T) and is made up of ({S}{G}{W}{S, G}{S, W}{G, W})
Now, here are the truths generated by each subset that are not members of T:
1. S is a member of T 2. G is a member of T 3. W is a member of T 4. S and G are two members of T 5. S and W are two members of T 6. G and W are two members of T 7. S, G, and W are members of T
No one of the truths in 1-7 is the sum of any two or more truths of the set T whose members are S, G, and W. S is one proposition. G is another proposition. W is another proposition. But the proposition “S and G are a subset of the set of all truths” is an entirely different proposition not gotten to be conjoining S and G.
The conjunction of S and G:
S: “The sky is blue” + G: “Grass is green” _______________________
= “The sky is blue and grass is green.”
This is the sum, or conjunction, of S and G. A conjunction of two true propositions is the conjunction of the states of affairs posited by those two propositions. That’s what makes the conjunction the “sum” of S and G. So far so good.
But:
“‘The sky is blue’ and ‘Grass is green’ are a subset of the set of all truths” is not the sum of S and G. It’s an entirely different proposition positing an entirely different state of affairs than that of the conjunction of S and G. This proposition has nothing to do with the color of the sky and grass and everything to do with their constituting a subset of the set of all truths T. The truth value of this proposition is determined by their in fact forming a subset of T, whereas the truth values of S and G (or of the conjunction of S and G) are determined by the sky’s being blue and the grass’ being green. Different animals altogether.
Now the problem that Patrick Grim pointed out is this: If the proposition “‘The sky is blue’ and ‘Grass is green’ are a subset of the set of all truths” is a true proposition, it’s also the case that this proposition is NOT a member of T. It’s left over. And there seem to be such truths each of which identify one of the elements of the power set P(T) but none of which is a member of T. Though T is supposed to be the set of ALL truths, here are truths that are outside of the set of all truths. That's why Grim said there can be no set of all truths. Actually, if he's right, and if God is necessarily omniscient, then this would constitute a proof that God does not exist.
I’m not making this up! I'm not that smart! 
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Alan Rhoda Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002 Total Posts : 680 | Posted 10/10/2004 6:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Interesting subject, Tom. Here's my thoughts:
First, what is a set? It is a collection of discrete entities. Now, Cantor's theorem says that for any set S we can construct a power set P(S), which is the set of all subsets of S. And we can keep constructing power sets: P(P(S)), P(P(P(S))), ..., ad infinitum, each one having greater cardinality than the last.
Second, the charge is that there can be no set of all truths T because its power set P(T) will contain truths in addition to the truths in T. This last claim, however, seems mistaken to me.
As Scott suggested, let's consider a world in which there are only 3 truths: grass is green, the sky is blue, and water is wet. Call the set of these truths T. Now the power set P(T), or the set of all subsets of T, contains the following sets:
{grass is green} {the sky is blue} {water is wet} {grass is green, the sky is blue} {grass is green, water is wet} {the sky is blue, water is wet} {grass is green, the sky is blue, water is wet}
The important point to notice is that the members of the power set P(T) are not truths but sets of truths. So P(T) does contain any truths over and above T. In fact, strictly speaking, it doesn't contain any truths at all! To be sure, the members of P(T) contain truths, but they don't contain any truths that aren't already contained in T.
What I'm saying is that the Cantorian argument against omniscience commits a category error by taking the members P(T) to be the same type of things as the members of T when they aren't. While it is certainly the case that the set of all subsets is itself a set, it is not generally the case that the set of subsets of X's is itself a set of X's. For example, if O is the set of all oranges, its power set P(O) is not a set of oranges, but a set of sets of oranges. Oranges and sets of oranges ain't the same type of thing--the first is a concrete entity that you can eat, while the latter is an abstract entity.
Blessings, Alan | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/10/2004 8:31 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ladies and Gentlemen, please buckle your seats and return your trays to their upright and locked position...
For all interested, please read the exhange at the blue link belows.
Thanks Alan! Good to hear your voice!
Alan: Second, the charge is that there can be no set of all truths T because its power set P(T) will contain truths in addition to the truths in T. This last claim, however, seems mistaken to me.
Tom: To clarify. First, the use of Cantor’s theorem to argue the impossibility of a set of all truths is not Cantor’s, but Patrick Grim’s. Just to keep the claims separate. Secondly, the charge is not that the power set P(T) ends up containing truths which are not members of T. Grim’s charge is that the power set P(T) generates truths that are not members of T. Of course they're not members of P(T). P(T) is a set of "sets" and not of "truths" as Alan points out. Now, I was sure I was wrong. And with each post on this thread I doubt myself and go back to the exchange between Grim and Plantinga (of all people!) over this very issue (http://www.sunysb.edu/philosophy/faculty/pgrim/exchange.html) and come away convinced again that I’m right at least on what Grim’s charge is. And Plantinga sees this. He doesn’t attempt to show that Grim is wrong about there not being a set of all truths as I would assume (and as others here argue). Plantinga simply concedes Grim’s point that there can be no set of all truths but challenges his argument in a different way:
quote: Plantinga to Grim: As you point out, it's plausible to think there is no such set [of all truths]. Still, there are truths of the sort: every proposition is true or false (or if you don't think that's a truth, every proposition is either true or not-true). This doesn't require that there be a set of all truths: why buy the dogma that quantification essentially involves sets?
See? Plantinga concedes (for the sake of argument or not isn’t so clear) the impossibility of a set of all truths but dismisses Grim’s use of this fact on the basis that quantification need not involve sets! Oh me oh my! Quantification need not involve sets? I’m wreathing on the floor and foaming at the mouth! I don’t think anybody has ever even tried to produce a logical semantics of quantification that doesn’t involve sets.
Somebody cast this demon out of me! Doc! (Oh no, not Doc. I’ll end up worse off!)
Alan: As Scott suggested, let's consider a world in which there are only 3 truths: grass is green, the sky is blue, and water is wet. Call the set of these truths T. Now the power set P(T), or the set of all subsets of T, contains the following:
{grass is green} {the sky is blue} {water is wet} {grass is green, the sky is blue} {grass is green, water is wet} {the sky is blue, water is wet} {grass is green, the sky is blue, water is wet}
Tom: Wait wait! How many times have we typed out the subsets of Scott’s three truths? Let me type them out again! Just joking. Right. Those are the sets that constitute P(T). No problem.
Alan: The important point to notice is that the members of the power set P(T) are not truths but sets of truths.
Tom: Quite right.
Alan: So P(T) does contain any truths over and above T.
Tom: Grim doesn’t claim that it does. What Grim claims is that there exist truths describing these subsets of P(T) which are not members of T. I’ve listed examples. Here’s is one such truth (let’s call it M for ‘missing in action’! ) that has its truth conditions in the power set P(T) but which is not a member of T:
PropM: The truths “Grass is green” and “The sky is blue” from the set of all truths T constitute the subset {grass is green, the sky is blue} in the power set P(T).
Does anyone want to argue M is NOT a proposition? Does anyone want to argue M is false?
Moving on then. Grim’s charge is not that M is a member of P(T) but not of T. Grim is arguing that M is not a member of T. He assumes it's not a member of P(T) because, as Alan pointed out, P(T) is a set of “sets.” For M to be a member subset of P(T) it would have first to be a member of T (hold your horses!). But the important point is, M is not a member of T the set of all truths, according to Grim. And as far as I (and Plantinga—don’t mind pointing that out; need all the help I can get!) can tell, Grim is right.
I can hear Scott and Alan now. M is a truth, so M is a member of T. No no. You listed your members of T. They were three. But if you were to list M as a member of T, M would appear a) as a subset in P(T) containing just itself as a member, and b) as a member of other sets each containing one or several of the other members of T and there would be NEW propositions describing those subsets in P(T) containing M and which would not be members of T! But M isn't a member of T. Why? Because it isn't listed in your set of three truths. But you can't avoid it's existence either. Why? Because M's truth conditions are created by P(T). M is a child of the power set P(T). It can't also be a parent of the power set.
Alan: What I'm saying is that the Cantorian argument against omniscience commits a category error by taking the members P(T) to be the same type of things as the members of T when they aren't. While it is certainly the case that the set of all subsets is itself a set, it is not generally the case that the set of subsets of X's is itself a set of X's. For example, if O is the set of all oranges, its power set P(O) is not a set of oranges, but a set of sets of oranges.
Tom: I don’t see Grim making this mistake. One might think so, but upon closer examination I think it can be shown that Grim’s not doing this. For example, your set O of all oranges. The power set P(O) is a set of sets of oranges. True. Let me ask you this. Is it not the case that for each subset in P(O) there exists a TRUTH (not a member of P(O), just a free proposition frying around) describing each subset in P(O)? Yes, there is. For example:
1. Consider the set O of all oranges (California oranges and Florida oranges being among them). 2. Next, consider the power set P(O). This set of subsets contains the set {Florida Oranges, California Oranges}. So far so good. 3. Next, ask: Does not the state of affairs Florida Oranges and California Oranges constituting a subset of all oranges ground the truth of the proposition “Florida Oranges and California Oranges together constitute a subset of oranges in the power set P(O)”? The answer is, yes, it does.
This doesn’t seem so odd because we easily keep “truths” separate from “oranges.” They’re different. But what if you’re dealing with the set of all TRUTHS? You just have to exercise extra care.
Alan is right in pointing out that the set of all truths T is composed of truths while the power set P(T) is composed of sets (or sets of truths, but fundamentally of sets, not truths). Grim doesn’t disagree. The same thing is true of all power sets, of course. They are all sets of “sets of x” (x being determined by the Mama Set). And Alan is also correct that all the truths that constitute the power set P(T) are the very same truths (no less, no more) than are in the set of all truths T. Grim doesn’t disagree.
B-b-b-b-b-but none of this says anything about the fact that for all the subsets that make up ANY power set (including the power set of the set of all truths) there exists a proposition (a truth) describing THAT subset as a member of it’s power set. This is the case with ALL power sets. It doesn’t stop just because we’re now talking about the set of all truths.
This isn’t problematic when we consider oranges because truths don’t belong to the set of all oranges; more specifically, the truths that are generated by the power set P(O) (of all oranges) are not required by the definition of O to be members of O. Same thing goes for the truths generated by the member-sets of the power set of all Calvinists, or the power set of all obsessive wanna-be-logicians name Tom, etc. But the truths generated by the power set of all truths—hmmm, I see a problem!—you said it, they ARE required by the definition of T to belong to T. But they don’t belong to T.
This lesson was free. I’m going to start charging in the future! 
I love you guys! Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Sahid Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 2013 | Posted 10/10/2004 8:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | I agree with Alan. Another thing: Even if P(T) contains new truths not in T, what about P(P(T))? Any element in this set beyond those in P(T) will contain repeats. Is {the sky is blue} different from {the sky is blue, the sky is blue}? Usually I hate mystery of God arguements, but God's ability to rearrange facts in infinitely differnet ways by repeating them... it's not even all that impressive a mystery is it?
Even if we grant that the set of truths in infinite or nonexistent, why can't God know infinitely many things. Honestly, I'm more impressed by turning water into wine.
Taking things a different direction.... I don't think we even need Cantor. When we say "there can be no set of all truths" I think what we are really saying is that such a set would be infinite given that P(P(.....(P(T)).....)) is the actual set of truths. But T is already unknowable given its infinity.
1 is an integer. 2 is an integer. . . .
Ace could be a name for a dog. Acf could be a name for a dog. Acg could be a name for a dog. . . .
When we go into conceptual rather than actual truth, sure, no (finite) set can contain them all, and sure, no finite human can know an infinite set, but none of this proves that actual truth is infinite or nonexistent (but I think what we really mean is infinite if we redefine T to be the set of actual truths), and it doesn't mean that God cannot know something infinite (I wouldn't know where to begin to prove that one).
I do think it's a pretty gnarly piece of logic, even if I don't agree. Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/10/2004 9:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sahid-
Get off of integers. There's no problem there. And there's no problem with infinite sets. Grim isn't arguing that God can't know infinite sets. Forget all that. There is only a problem with there existing a set of all TRUTHS (not because it's infinite). That's got nothing to do with it. Don't give me oranges or numbers or dogs.
Does anybody wish to argue that given Scott's set of all truths T, my proposition M is not a true proposition whose truth condition is a state of affairs that obtains in the creation of the power set P(T) in nothing else? The truth of this proposition is all that's needed, so far as Plantinga and I can see , to sink your boats.
Throw out the life-preservers Alvin, I'll pull our cruiser around one last time to pick 'em up. Yeah, I'll bring you another beer too.
Tom
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 |  Moderators Second Cousin Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2004 Total Posts : 85 | Posted 10/11/2004 2:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom, Grim's application of Cantor's Theorem appears to be just another example of the paradoxes that are created by self-referencing statements.
For example, "This statement is false".
Another example, the set S is the set that contains EVERYTHING. Does S contain S?
Logicians have proposed different methods for handling these kinds of paradoxes, Susan Haack lays out a number of them in her "Philosophy Of Logics" which I'd look up for you if I wasn't at work.
One method that comes to mind is using a metalanguage, another (metalanguage?) is a calculus of forms as developed by G. Spencer Brown that uses a third truth value, called imaginery.
quote:
Another supporting argument for constructing formal systems is that uninhibited use of intuition leads to paradoxes, or self-referencing statements, like:
This statement is false.
This self-referencing statement is false if true, and true if false. It is inherently contradictory, or so the argument goes.
This argument, though, is weakened by the work of G. Spencer Brown, who developed a calculus of forms in which self-referencing statements can have a truth value different from true or false (namely a third truth value, called imaginary). This proposed solution is the analog to the solution developed in algebra to allow imaginary numbers to deal with self-referencing equations like.
x2 + 1 = 0.
This equation has solutions only if imaginary numbers are allowed. The solutions are: +√ -1 and -√ -1
Similarly, paradoxes would have solutions if imaginary statements were allowed.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Moderators Second Cousin Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2004 Total Posts : 85 | Posted 10/11/2004 2:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | I haven't read the exchange between Grim and Plantinga yet but from your restatement of it, it appears that's what's being done, creating a self-referencing kind of paradox in order to make it appear an omniscient God isn't possible.
quote:
SELF-REFERENTIAL SYSTEMS
Why does such a paradox arise? The problem is because with both the "Barber Paradox" and in the paradox of the "set of all sets which do not contain themselves", we are dealing with self-referential systems. Self-referential systems are systems which refer to themselves. For example: consider the following sentence: "This sentence has five words." The sentence does, in fact, have five words, so the statement, though self-referential, is true. There is also no problem with false self-referential sentences, such as "This sentence has four words," which is false because it actually has five words. However, some self-referential statements present a more paradoxical situation: "This sentence is false." It's clearly self-referential, but is it true or false? When we try to decide, we find ourselves stuck in a vicious cycle. The truth or falsity of the statement is indeterminable.
As this simple example demonstrates, self-referential systems quickly become too complex for logic. The self-referential system par excellence is the mind. Since the mind is the only tool that we have for thinking about anything, that means that the mind is also the only tool which we can use to think about the nature of the mind. Jung was fond of emphasizing "the fundamental fact that in psychology the object of knowledge is at the same time the organ of knowledge, which is true of no other science." (32)
However, Jung was wrong in assuming that the problem is confined to psychology; if we think deeply enough about anything, we are led ineluctably to think about the process of thought. As an example which we have already discussed at some length, Kant ran up against the same issue in philosophy. Once the Renaissance ideal led men and women to separate themselves from nature in order to observe nature objectively, it was inevitable that they would eventually turn that observation upon themselves. Berkeley and Hume were merely the first in the Western World to demonstrate the nasty little paradoxes that appear when the mind thinks about itself.
Anthropologist Gregory Bateson stressed that all living creatures are complex feed-back systems. A feed-back system provides information to itself about its performance, which in turn is used to change that performance. That change leads to further feed-back, thus forming a continuous loop. The information, which the system feeds back to itself so that it can better adapt to reality, is of a higher order of reality than the behavior that it comments on. Hence living creatures are complex self-referential systems. (33)
As physicist Werner Heisenberg [1901-1976] discovered, even confining our observation to non-living systems is not sufficient to protect us from the problem. At the sub-atomic level, our observation changes the object under observation, which is another way of saying that the subject, the object, and the act of observation are actually a single system--the split between subject and object is artificial. Thus, even in physical experiments, the subject is once again involved in a self-referential system. (34)
There is no necessary paradox in self-referential systems as long as the systems are finite. Mathematicians have been able to successfully prove the consistency and completeness of many finite mathematical systems. If the system is small enough and simple enough, they simply develop every implication of the system for every member of the system. Thus, if human beings can be viewed independently from the world around them, and if they are nothing more than the finite amount of "things" (such as proteins and nucleic acid, etc.) that make up their physical composition, there is a way out of the problem of self-referencing. The mind is then reducible to the brain, and the problem of the brain thinking about itself eventually winds down since it is at most a finite process.
That is still the most popular scientific position. The point of this book is that such a position seems increasingly untenable as we dig deeper into any of the systems that explore the universe, from philosophy to mathematics to physics to psychology; in fact, to any field at all. All fields of thought eventually involve themselves in infinite self-referential systems. (35) And the only way out of that dilemma lies in an archetypal hypothesis, such as developed by Jung and Gödel in their separate fields. But we are getting ahead of ourselves and need to get back to Russell's project.
http://www.angelfire.com/super/magicrobin/09-tower.htm
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"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/11/2004 4:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Haayee Cuz,
Niyis tray. But yer reeznin ain't purfic. Iiyee suppose it'll work fur folks who dun likta thinks. But summins a telling me that that thar Alvin Planeetinga with all his smarts wooda seen a self-refrencin varmit payreedox if'n that's what it be.
Cuz Tom
Signurturi: "Weez sec'n cuzinz, but weez got da sayim daddy! Yeeehaw!" | | Back to Top | | |
  |  scott_jorgenson Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 271 | Posted 10/11/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Tom,
I just checked back on this thread since my response last week. I see a few other people had the same objection I did (Alan and Sahid - namely about the manner in which P(T) members - whose membership in P(T) itself constitutes new truth - must be considered - paradoxically - to be elements of T too). Thanks for clarifying for all of us, and I agree with you now that the objection is wrong and based on misunderstanding of Grim's application.
As to what this means for omniscience, then, I would wonder if it has any bearing. If omniscience means "knowing all truths" then since there can be no such thing as "all truths" (that's what Grim I think establishes) certainly then there can be no such thing as that kind of omniscience. But if omniscience means "knowing any one truth" - ie knowing the truth or not-truth of any given proposition - then perhaps omniscience survives.
In any case, I am convinced by those who argue that "omniscience" as an abstract quality of God comes from Greek rationalism and is not necessarily the biblical testimony. The biblical testimony seems to be rather that God's knowledge is unsurpassed by that of any other, without seeking to "quantify" that in terms of infinites or formal logic (neither of which is there any evidence that the Hebrews possessed knowledge of). "Whatever is knowable, God knows" is, I think, the best conclusion on the topic from the Jewish and Christian scriptures - and so if Grim establishes that some things are in principle unknowable then that is no more problematic for the Jewish/Christian conception of God than is admitting that God doesn't know the last digit of pi.
Scott
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  |  Alan Rhoda Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002 Total Posts : 680 | Posted 10/11/2004 2:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: The charge is not that the power set P(T) ends up containing truths which are not members of T. ... What Grim claims is that there exist truths describing these subsets of P(T) which are not members of T. I’ve listed examples. Here’s is one such truth (let’s call it M for ‘missing in action’! ) that has its truth conditions in the power set P(T) but which is not a member of T:
PropM: The truths “Grass is green” and “The sky is blue” from the set of all truths T constitute the subset {grass is green, the sky is blue} in the power set P(T).
Does anyone want to argue M is NOT a proposition? Does anyone want to argue M is false?
Moving on then. Grim’s charge is not that M is a member of P(T) but not of T. Grim is arguing that M is not a member of T.
Alan: After I made my post last night it occurred to me that someone might respond in this manner. It seems this conundrum is not so easily put to rest. You're a sharp guy, Tom.
OK, so Grim is not saying that P(T) contains members that should be in T but aren't. Rather, he's saying that for any set T of truths there are additional truths not contained in T, namely, truths describing the members of the P(T). Got it.
In response to this I want to endorse a move similar to Plantinga's but also slightly different. In the quote you gave, Plantinga basically suggests that quantification need not involve sets. But then the question is how to make sense of that. How can one have quantification without sets? Plantinga doesn't say. This leaves his answer incomplete. His answer is also ad hoc unless there are independent grounds for thinking that quantification does not necessarily involve sets.
A set is a collection of discrete objects. If the objects aren't discrete, then they can't be handled set theoretically. To be discrete the objects in a collection have to be non-overlapping. But this is not how it is with propositions. For example, "If that rock is dropped, then it will fall" overlaps the propositions "that rock is dropped" and "it (i.e., that rock) will fall".
Sets are very convenient to work with. Accordingly, some logicians have tried to decompose all propositions into discrete atomic propositions that can be handled set theoretically. Thus, defenders of the so-called "equivalence thesis" hold that "if p then q" is equivalent to "p & ~q". But this, it seems to me and to most philosophers of logic, is manifestly not the case. Accordingly, "if p then q" is not truth-functional (i.e., it's truth value is not simply a matter of the truth values of its component propositions: p, q) and so is not simply a set-theoretical construction of atomic propositions.
So what I want to claim is that propositions are not, in general, discrete in the way required for set-theoretical operations to be permissible. Logicians and philosophers often speak of and treat propositions as though they were set compliant entities, but to accomplish that in practice they have to make some (over)simplifying assumptions, like treating conditionals as though they were truth-functional.
In short, if we are to speak strictly, we shouldn't talk about the "set" of all truths because there is no such thing. So in describing God's omniscience we shouldn't say that God knows the "set" of all truths. Rather, we should say that if any proposition is true, then God knows it and if any proposition is not true, then God doesn't know it. We don't have to invoke sets at all to describe God's omniscience.
Hope that's tolerably clear.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/11/2004 3:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | Alan: OK, so Grim is not saying that P(T) contains members that should be in T but aren't. Rather, he's saying that for any set T of truths there are additional truths not contained in T, namely, truths describing the members of the P(T). Got it.
Tom: It's soooo wonderful to be understood! Thanks Alan. Get back to ya later. My hunny is calling from from upstairs. 
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
 |  anewbeginning Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 88 | Posted 10/13/2004 1:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | Don't mean to intrude but I would like to add one thought. When speaking of "truths", it sounds as if Grim feels they are "out there" some where, as if they had some sort of existence of their own. But assuming God is AWARE of Cantor Sets, doesn't it follow he has the knowledge availailable to Him that Grim denies is possible. Doesn't Omniscience suggest absolute, instant UNDERSTANDING.
On another line of thought, we can build Cantor sets of Cantor sets ad infinitum, but infinity+1 still equals infinity. I think Grim overlooks the ability of UNDERSTANDING to increase available knowledge. Omniscience is more than a huge filing cabinet. | | Back to Top | | |
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