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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/26/2004 9:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | Rick Joyner's second bulletin on Paul Cain is interesting. http://www.morningstarministries.org/pages/special_bulletins/SB_Current.html
He continues to maintain that a practicing homosexual can minister as a "major prophetic voice" of God and that his ministry as a homosexual should in no way be negated or reduced. While Rick expresses remorse for not "discerning" Paul Cain's homosexuality, he claims that his feeling-based discernment endorsing the prophetic words of a practicing homosexual are valid and to be trusted.
Why is it so important for Rick Joyner to assert that a practicing homosexual is still a prophet with a legitimate ministry as a major prophetic voice? Rick could simply state that the ministry of Paul Cain for the past 10 years (or whatever time it is proven that he began this homosexual behavior) is suspect. I believe that Paul's past ministry as a homosexual must be endorsed because failure to do so his would place the concept of feeling-based discernment itself on trial. There are many prophecies that Paul Cain has given as a practicing homosexual which were proclaimed to be "valid" and the voice of God by these very men. If even these elite men cannot "judge" prophecy accurately using this tool, perhaps the tool itself is defective. Proving this "discernment" to be defective would be too costly in their system of prophetic authority and would cause many more questions than they are capable of answering.
Thus, they must insist that Paul Cain was a legitimate and valid spokesperson for God as a practicing homosexual and that his homosexuality in no way negated or reduced the validity of his prophetic ministry conducted at the time.
The very definition of who is a "prophet" is in play. Based on his comments, Rick Joyner must feel that the ability to interact with the spiritual world is actually what determines whether one is a prophet or not. God gives to some the gift of communicating with spirits and this makes them a prophet and a spokesperson for God, homosexuality or no homosexuality. We find this in the following statements in bulletin #37.
quote:
we continue to pray for this provision of someone to help him that can do better than we did. However, because of the extraordinary and powerful gifts that Paul has and the way that they have been used recently, there are very serious dangers for anyone who does not understand these things. Anyone who is presumptuous in this could be in even more jeopardy. ...When the devil gets an inroad into someone with a great anointing he takes full advantage of it, and the level of deception and seduction that is working in Paul at this time is greater than anything I have personally ever witnessed before.
It seems that Rick believes that Paul Cain has powers and anointings that may be used by Satan for the harm of others. According to this rationale, a false prophet could only be someone who was lying about having true spiritual power, not someone who was a homosexual or liar. The prophet is simply one with powers that God uses to speak His words and Satan can use these same powers to speak his words. This is more like the concept of black/white magic and a "medium" than anything scriptural. How does this mesh with the concept of "false prophet?" Can a practicing homosexual actually be fulfilling the ministry of God's true prophet and spokesperson? Can we conceive of Jeremiah, Isaiah, or Ezekiel being homosexuals while they proclaimed the message of the coming wrath of God upon all God's people who wouldn't obey their words?
I find his explanations weak and disappointing.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/26/2004 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi spen,
I did not conclude, based on the open letter from Joyner et al, that Cain's homosexual activity was something that had been ongoing for a long time. It seemed to me that what Joyner alleges is that Cain has become a practicing homosexual, and that this present fact does not necessarily negate his previous ministry.
Do you know of solid evidence that Cain has been living this lifestyle longer than the period referred to in the letter by Joyner?
Again, I am praying for the restoration of Cain to godly living (though not necessarily public ministry).
Sincerely,
John
I contacted a friend that is involved and one of the leaders sent an email that indicated that it had been on-going for at least 10 years. In additon, Rick Joyner had a first draft of bulletin 36 that stated the following seeming to support this before he edited his post.quote:
We also want to apologize to the body of Christ for our part in promoting and elevating Paul’s stature in the church while having these significant strongholds in his life. The signs that these problems existed were abundant, and we had an obvious lack of discernment and failed to see them until this year. We have received a considerable education through this situation, the principles of which we will share in due time with the hope that others will not have to make our same mistakes. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c06.html
I also have been communicating with men who are involved in the "restoration" and, though I do not have the details I was told, "The "partners" were, apparently, colleagues--but I have only general information on that, which is not confirmed."
The strongest evidence is the admission by one in IHOP leadership that it has been going on for 10 years or so. Regardless of this, Paul Cain was allowed to continue to be a leader and function in his "minstry" from the time of April until this last week. For at least this 6 month period the above is true.
It is deeply disappointing.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/27/2004 1:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rsirkel
hey Spen
I go to IHOP and I was there when a broken, repentent, Mike Bickle shared the fall of Cain with the meeting and shared his responsibility of having promoted Cain without the same standards he expects of others. He has changed course as a result of this failure and is focusing in the future on holiness, love of the Lord and the lost.
I won't defend the prophetic movements teachings but I will defend my brothers and sisters who meet together to worship Jesus at a place called IHOP. Stick with your debate about the means you perceive are authentic in relationship with God and stop the bigotry. You have every right to question Paul Cain's authenticity as a prophet but to begin to slur everyone who goes to IHOP, most of whom are sincere devoted though imperfect young people is going too far. I'm not offended my friend, but I have been around the Christian block a time or two and I think you would defend your church friends too if they were under attack, wouldn't you?
Jesus Christ died for our sins while we were yet enemies of God don't you think He is able to save those who trust in Him even if they miss the bulls eye. The point is God's ability to save us not our ability to adjust the cognitive mind this way and that. You seem to rule out God's ability to save if a person has used his or her mind in a way you deem unlawful. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and He is able.
Peace
Ron
Ron,
Well said. I apologize. I knew being mocking was always a bad thing and my hypocricy regarding Mod is rightly being slapped in my face. Thank you for caring and pointing this out. It wasn't worth the laugh. I am sure that there are wonderful Christians that are going to IHOP. This is what makes the teachings of men like Paul Cain so terrible - it damages real people. I am truly sorry for any slur regarding the congregation. However, I have no apology at all to offer regarding the leadership and their teachings. They are inherently abusive and destructive.
To intimate that Paul Cain's "ministry" as a prophetic voice of God and spiritual father should in no way be negated or reduced just because it was done while he was a practicing homosexual beggers the imagination. It would seem that "a major prophetic voice" would rank as higher in their hierarchy than a simple elder or deacon. What do we find as the requirements of this ministry in Titus and Timothy? quote:
For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
It would seem that Paul Cain fails on the first two and another later on. If he fails even this low biblical bar placed for elders, what should we do considering one who claims to bring revelations of the hidden things of God that are beyond the scriptures?
Why is not the following applicable to the supernatural minstry of Paul Cain instead of its being called legitimate by those who profited most by it?
"the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
Ron: I think you would defend your church friends too if they were under attack, wouldn't you?
Spen: I would defend them where I believe that they were defendable. I think that if I understood them to be sinning I would encourage them to repent and find protection in the gospel. Mod will probably slap me back with the scriptures that I used above, but I disagree with him regarding what he is opposing and calling "sin." Thus, I defend what I don't believe to be sin. I hope and pray to God that I won't defend the indefensibe but encourage repentence when necessary - you can observe me and judge for yourself. I think that "defending the indefensible" would be bringing me perilously close the the horrifying hardening the OV people have such an affintiy to calling to our attention. However, theatrical "brokeness" before a congregation is not repentence any more than Judas' tearful remorse was. I have been at many prophetic/apostolic services with "broken" leaders apologizing for not better manifesting the supernatural power/authority that they claim to possess. This isn't even the real issue but a silly sideshow. This is what I meant in the initial post. If Mike Bickle and the leadership don't repent of their defective beliefs regarding authority and "feeling-based discernment," nothing will ever really change in their abusive system. Who will be the next wolf in sheeps clothing that arises from among them, savaging the flock? What if the next wolf's supernatural spiritual "gifts" are even greater than Paul Cain's and he can heal on command, stop the rain, call down fire from heaven...? Based upon their record but will follow him to hell convinced he is their "prophet." Those that are best at discerning are the ones that already raised questions regarding Paul Cain in the past years to which Bickle responded, "Touch not My anointed and do my prophets no harm." Why is there no repentence for such arogance as this. Unless these issues come up, there is no escape for them. They remain locked in their delusion.
God bless you and your friends and family in such a terrible spot. Thank you for your kind words of correction. I appreciate them. I will give you some advice but it is my own words with all the authority of a "spen," not necessarily God's - run for your lives!
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/27/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
Hi Spen,
please let me ask you why you are so intentional about using people's names on websites to point out their sins/admonish them etc? I'm not here to correct you, but I do wonder about the log/speck thing. I trust that God will be a perfectly righteous judge (knowing the heart) of Mr. Cain/ME/You and all the others. Please, can you just trust that too and let it go?
Thanks,
love
selah
PS I think it would be really cool if you could decide to never ever post another name on any website in a neg. way...at least until you have all your logs taken care of. If that's like me -- I'll see you in Heaven. peace.
I think that the destructive nature of the teachings and claims being made merit the posting. Beyond that, the issues regarding Paul Cain have already been posted on Rick Joyner's site as "to the church" and these are his friends and followers that have already done this. I am simply "re-posting" in this instance. Regarding the concept itself, what would you say to Paul with his comments on Alexander and others in 1 Timothy 1:20 and 2 Timothy 4:14?
I think that the extreme nature of what is being claimed, a practicing homosexual can simultaneouly have a valid legitimate minstry as a "major prophetic voice" merits what I have done. As you have seen, there are even those on this board that are affected by these extreme claims. My name has been "named" on this board and held up to ridicule (perhaps rightly?), at least for poor presentation and rotten attitudes. I don't see opposing false teaching as damaging, but helpful. I mean this about my own "false teaching" but especially teachings and claims that have been made in the public. I would hope that any of my stupid ideas that I express here will stay here, as the site's rules indicate. Other than that, you are all free to correct my poor ideas as you wish.
I believe I will think it is proper to "let it go" when those of you on this board are able to let go of your attacks on hyper-Calvinism. I would feel poorer if you were able to do this, honestly poorer and more exposed and unprotected as a sheep.
Spen Lake
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/27/2004 2:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
...I think that the extreme nature of what is being claimed, a practicing homosexual can simultaneouly have a valid legitimate minstry as a "major prophetic voice" merits what I have done.
ok Spen, I'm just saying that I'm a "practicing" sinner too. That's all. If you believe it's a Good thing to do, carry on.
quote:
...I believe I will think it is proper to "let it go" when those of you on this board are able to let go of your attacks on hyper-Calvinism.
Well, hyper-calvinism is silly, for one. Also, hyper-calvinism is a concept/thing/idea - not a person. Calvin was a person, but he is dead. If he were not dead, perhaps I could go directly to him (matthew 18) and discuss some of his silly (and destructive) ideas personally. But, as it is, he is dead. His IDEAS live on.
If you are mad about Cain, couldn't you contact him directly? I talk to people directly all the time (though usually about good/interesting/insightful stuff cuz I don't have time for the neg/sin stuff). Anyway, it was only a suggestion spen. Do as you will.
Blessings,
selah
PS. I didn't understand this, sorry.
quote:
I would feel poorer if you were able to do this, honestly poorer and more exposed and unprotected as a sheep.
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/27/2004 2:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah: If you are mad about Cain, couldn't you contact him directly? I talk to people directly all the time (though usually about good/interesting/insightful stuff cuz I don't have time for the neg/sin stuff). Anyway, it was only a suggestion spen. Do as you will.
Spen: The neg/sin stuff is very helpful in the right context. Look at Ron pointing out my sin in mocking IHOP and the needless damage I was doing. His comments brought me life, not death. Perhaps, just perhaps, the next time that I am tempted to mock this way I may remember and choose to express my concerns lovingly instead. I think that Ron's was a proper use of the "law" on me.
I also think that you are not required to Matt 18 a public teacher. Timothy and Titus were commanded to oppose and correct false teachers. How much more should we oppose those who as homosexuals claim to have the ministry of a "major prophetic voice" for God. I am not saying that it is sinful to attempt a private correction, I am only stating that there is also liberty to address the issues publicly. Paul states in 2 Tim how teachers who continue in sin (as Paul Cain has) are to be corrected.
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias
This may not mean what I think it means, but it must mean something.
Spen Lake
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 10/27/2004 7:00 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Spen wrote:
.
quote:
..... "rebuke in the presence of all , so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning."
This may not mean what I think it means, but it must mean something.
I don't think "all" was intended to mean THE INTERNET -- as a 'flogging' for the entire universe to behold.
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Spen wrote:
quote:
Thus, the "church" that he "ministered" to is to be contacted via the web.
To utilize THE INTERNET for character assassination is to be intentionally devastating -- by design.
When such allegations -- true or untrue, are posted on the internet, the ripple effects are never ending.
Is this genuinely a "loving" confrontation? Or, might the purpose be more sinister??
I disagree that "all" (as used below) was intended to be used as justification for large-scale "spectator sport" flogging.
I believe that your interpretation is in error.
.
Spen wrote:
.
quote:
..... "rebuke in the presence of all , so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning."
This may not mean what I think it means, but it must mean something.
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | .
.
To utilize THE INTERNET for the purpose of character assassination -- ever, under any circumstances, is without conscience.
Your current thread happens to be one example.
Your previous allegations about "Seeing Is Believing" was another example.
<><
.
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Error:
You attributed my post to Jo-Ann.
Peace & blessings,
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for correcting the error (i.e., addressing me as "Jo-Ann").
I took no offense; but, it would be unfair to attribute my opinion to another person...
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | To reiterate, I wrote:
.
.
To utilize THE INTERNET for the purpose of character assassination -- ever, under any circumstances, is without conscience.
Your current thread happens to be one example.
Your previous allegations about "Seeing Is Believing" was another example.
<><
.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan
I have a question about "hurt" and "help".
If a homosexual waits on me in a restaurant, for example, am I "hurt" or "helped" by his waiting on me? Isn't his "orientation" irrelevant to his service?
Now I don't know what modern day prophets and apostles do, but if whatever they did before they were outed was deemed okay, why would a reevalation of what they did in the past change based upon their being outed? confused? I'll try again:
Let's say ten years ago a pastor gave me good advice. No one deemed the advice bad. I followed the good advice and it helped me.
Now ten years later, someone tells me that pastor was homosexual. Was I then "hurt" by his good advice ten years ago because he's been outed now? Or is good advice good advice no matter who gives it?
If P.C.'s work in the past was deemed good, why are people deeming it bad now that he's been outed?
Wasn't Judas one of the disciples who cast out demons and healed people in Jesus' name before Jesus was betrayed?
I work with homosexuals and am grateful to benefit from their talents and wisdom. In as much as a waiter helps me and is a homosexual, I receive the benefit and am grateful. If I am sick and a homosexual doctor administers healing, again I live and am grateful. Even if a homosexual pastor gave me good secular advice and I was benefited, I remain grateful. Going beyond this, if a homosexual shared the true gospel with me from evil motives, according to Phil 1, I should be grateful because God's gospel is life even if spoken to me by the devil himself.
Now, a man claims to fill the office of a prophet, a modern Jeremiah, and he speaks to me as God claiming to be his spokesperson. This is different. He is no longer offering me a tangible service, he is now claiming to speak for God as His prophet. Is it true that the God who would destroy Sodom to make an everlasting example out of it would chose a practicing homosexual to be His official spokesperson and prophet? Is it true that God would establish a practicing homosexual to rebuke the sinning nations and threaten them with wrath if they don't listen to him?
I am sorry, this concept beggers my feeble imagination.
Spen Lake
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