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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/1/2003 11:46 PM (GMT -6) |   | I don’t know why I feel the need to do this, but I do. Maybe because it’s so late. Maybe it’s because I’ve been asked so many times. I don’t know…
The question is posed:
“Meph, what the heck ARE you? Sometimes you seem like a determinist. Other times, you seem like an open theist. And what’s up with universalism? Do you believe in that too or what? It sure seems that way sometimes. What DO you believe? Just make it plain.”
Fine. Since some people seem so bent on allegiances, here you go. A formal statement of what I believe.
First of all, I do hold the conviction that that Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God...and distinctly identified with God as no other human being. He was God and all that.
Next, I believe in the existence of libertarian free will, and all that logically entails (like things being partly open and partly settled, gratuitous evil, etc.). In that respect, I am an open theist. I also believe in God’s ability to use both 1st and 2nd type compatibilism (via continuous, carefully detailed, divine direction) in the world. In that respect, I am a determinist. I believe in a reality where sentient free will and compatibilism COEXIST. I believe in a reality where God is glorified in BOTH things. I can do this because I neither bank my faith in and dedication to God on the free will argument, nor do I believe that the existence of gratuitous evil makes God less glorious and “hand-wringing”!
So, I guess this means I’m on BOTH teams…and I’m on NEITHER team. I’m too compatibilistic to suit some open view theists libertarian sensibilities and too “accomodating” with open view theism to be seen as a “truly biblical” determinist.
Whatever.
As far as end states, I think that there are good arguments for annihilationism, eternal punishment, and universalism. So, what do I personally believe? Honestly, I don’t think about it very much. I think like this. Intimate knowledge of God in Christ by the Spirit exists NOW. (Remember my sermon?) And to the extent that you don’t live in that reality now, you are living far beneath what God desires. Living for Jesus in this life and living the Great Commandments and Great Commision is SUPREMELY important, regardless of what end state actually obtains. I don’t feel the need to postulate a particular end state to provide existential comfort for my theology. (I’m not saying that everyone does, but let’s admit that some, in fact, do.) I suppose some people would say that this is some sort of implicit evidence of my NOT caring for people. Meaning that to the extent that I cared about people’s end states, I might be morally revulsed by one or more existentially satisfied by another, in thinking about people who may end up separated from God. Frankly, I think that’s not only untrue, but fundamentally misguided. To love God IS to love the neighbor in a true sense. In my truly trying to be a vehicle of God’s grace and working in this life, I AM thinking about people who are separated from God. I can’t, nor would I attempt, to do one without the other. I just recognize that ultimately, I’M NOT RESPONSIBLE for what happens at the end of this thing. God is. What I’m responsible for is the daily death to self and daily manifesting the eternal life I believe that I possess in Christ. What I’m responsible for is to love God and love the neighbor as myself. What I’m responsible for is to BEAR WITNESS to the light that I have and trust that God can use me as an occasion for divine interaction with the other as God sees fit.
So, someone may say “Hey, what about the end of all things?” I would say “TODAY, is the day of salvation, my friend. Think one day at a time, and tomorrow will take care of itself.”
As far as faith, and what I believe genuine faith entails, see my proposed “Statement ABOUT Faith” here…
http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2518
I hope this answers all of the pertinent questions. Now, you’ll all know whether to love me or hate me according to what I believe, right? 
For the satisfaction of enquiring minds,
"I wish they would only take me as I am."
--Vincent Van Gogh,
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Kenya
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 9/1/2003 11:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I just recognize that ultimately, I’M NOT RESPONSIBLE for what happens at the end of this thing. God is."
What do you mean "God is?" Are you talking about He is responsible for the end as in heaven and hell or as in people's end (like He is responsible for their "destinies")? I am asking because I thought open thiests believe that people CHOSE their end result and God never does because then He'd be a dictator (I believe in free will AND predestination AND God can and does change hearts and BUT He also lets us make choices. It's all "impossible" but not with God!! I don't rack my brain about it but I think it's a really good thing even though it boggles my mind!)
So what do you mean by "the end" and what exactly God is responsible for, because... well, what exactly do open theists think God is responsible for? Anything? Or nothing? I know what they think He is not responsible for but do you believe He is responsible for anything? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2003 12:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Kenya:
quote:
What do you mean "God is?" Are you talking about He is responsible for the end as in heaven and hell or as in people's end (like He is responsible for their "destinies")?
As in heaven and hell.
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/2/2003 1:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph whimps out and says:
"I don’t know why I feel the need to do this, but I do. Maybe because it’s so late. Maybe it’s because I’ve been asked so many times. I don’t know…" .
Meph, you have just handed us a pair of glasses that can be used to filter almost everything you say. Did you really want to do that?
peace, don
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/2/2003 3:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: Next, I believe in the existence of libertarian free will, and all that logically entails (like things being partly open and partly settled, gratuitous evil, etc.). In that respect, I am an open theist.
Tom: You open theist you.
Mephi: I also believe in God’s ability to use both 1st and 2nd type compatibilism (via continuous, carefully detailed, divine direction) in the world. In that respect, I am a determinist.
Tom: No, in this respect you’re still an open theist. Believing God sometimes unconditionally determines outcomes doesn’t make you a determinist.
Mephi: I believe in a reality where sentient free will and compatibilism COEXIST. I believe in a reality where God is glorified in BOTH things.
Tom: Coexits in the sense that libertarian choices may at one and the same instance be 1st type compatibilism?
Well, you seem pretty normal to me. I guess I’ll eat with you in St. Paul when I’m there next.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2003 4:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Don:
quote:
Meph, you have just handed us a pair of glasses that can be used to filter almost everything you say. Did you really want to do that?
Yeah, in one way, I guess I did punk out a little bit. I hope it doesn’t kill too much of the mystery. But again, some enquiring minds want to know. And maybe this will help people not to misunderstand me and my intentions as much. Besides, there’s still lots of stuff I haven’t said. Like whether I believe in an actual Adamic couple or not. And I’m not telling that.
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quote:
Mephi: I also believe in God’s ability to use both 1st and 2nd type compatibilism (via continuous, carefully detailed, divine direction) in the world. In that respect, I am a determinist.
Tom: No, in this respect you’re still an open theist. Believing God sometimes unconditionally determines outcomes doesn’t make you a determinist.
Actually, I think it does. Remember what Doc said. Doc said:
quote:
Dude, it seems you’ve reduced the Open Worldview down to the sheer ascertain of a partly open future. But I suspect that for most Open Thiests, the "Open Worldview" is MORE a matter of a certain picture of God , of a certain picture of his relationship with us, and thus of a certain picture of what it means to be human. You’re proposed "compromise" cuts to the core of this – even though it allows for a future composed of possibilities.
To the extent that I grant the things I grant to determinism, I wouldn’t be an open theist as Doc conceives of it. Because that IS all that OVT means to me: the sheer ascertain of a partly open future.
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quote:
Mephi: I believe in a reality where sentient free will and compatibilism COEXIST. I believe in a reality where God is glorified in BOTH things.
Tom: Coexits in the sense that libertarian choices may at one and the same instance be 1st type compatibilism?
Nope. I meant in the same worldview. When it comes to morally responsible acts, I’d say what Doc said (emphasis mine):
quote:
Over all, once you take out the eternal destiny bit, I have little problem IN PRINCPLE with the idea of God occasionally removing libertarian freedom for reasons that are beyond us (the "glorification" principle). I would only add that in so far this happens, the person being acted on is not morally responsible for their action except insofar as their action is an expression of an antecedent character they themselves have freely chosen.
In other words, beings COULD be morall responsible for 2nd type compatibilistic acts…which is really saying a LOT.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/2/2003 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc: [Mephi], it seems you’ve reduced the Open Worldview down to the sheer ascertain of a partly open future. But I suspect that for most Open Thiests, the "Open Worldview" is MORE a matter of a certain picture of God , of a certain picture of his relationship with us, and thus of a certain picture of what it means to be human. You’re proposed "compromise" cuts to the core of this – even though it allows for a future composed of possibilities.
Mephi: To the extent that I grant the things I grant to determinism, I wouldn’t be an open theist as Doc conceives of it.
Until you argue that God holds us morally responsible for what God unconditionally determines we do, you’re not in the determinist’s camp.
Mephi: Nope, I meant in the same worldview. When it comes to morally responsible acts, I’d say what Doc said: “…except insofar as their action is an expression of an antecedent character they themselves have freely chosen.”
Tom: There ya go. So here is another item (besides the OV meaning nothing more to you than “the sheer ascertain of a partly open future”) you share with the OV worldview. You’re clearly in the center of the OV worldview in your view of freedom and moral responsibility. You don’t believe God holds agents responsible for 1st type compatibilism. You’re certainly unlike open theists who deny God ever unconditionally determines any choice of ours, but I should think these open theists (I haven’t met one of these yet) are farther from the center than you, Doc, Sanders, and the like.
Mephi: In other words, beings COULD be morally responsible for 2nd type compatibilistic acts…which is really saying a LOT.
Tom: But it’s not saying anything far of center to the OV worldview. On the contrary, it puts you at the center, not at all any closer to what compatibilists affirm, since compatibilists deny all 2nd type compatibilism. You look pretty center to me dude!
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/2/2003 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: You the MAN! Make a statement that isn't really a statement but kind of is and end it with loving your neighbor (sort of..). I like THAT! | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/2/2003 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph whimps out even more... "And maybe this will help people not to misunderstand me and my intentions as much. "
Now you're looking for acceptance. That preaching gig must have made quite an impact. 
peace, don | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/2/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 9/5/2003 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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