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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/5/2004 10:02 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
[I don't think Doc thinks Christians are to ever fight in a war - even in a just war. That's why I'm asking the question.
Doc: Its a good question. Lets think this through a bit.
* Is there any suggestion Jesus meant to say "love your enemies and do good to those who mistreat you" UNLESS the cause is just? (remember, he was talking to people who before long would be fed to lions and burned alive... unjustly)?
In the very same sermon, Jesus also says to pluck your eye out or cut your hand off if they cause you to sin, and yet I know of no Christian groups in history who have ever interpreted these statements strictly literally. Could He have been using hyperbole when speaking of loving one's enemies, too?
Additionally, if our love for our enemies is to be directly analogous to the Father's love for his enemies (which the context expressly demands in Matt. 5:28-38), and the Father does in fact at times execute those who rebel against His goodness/benevolence (many examples of this in Scripture), why must we infer that Jesus' command to love our enemies precludes us from using physical force to subdue, for instance, a known criminal? (Please note I'm not advocating the burning of heretics; for the sake of this argument, I'm assuming freedom of religion, so long as such freedom does not violate the other basic social freedoms in our society).
Can anyone imagine Jesus, in the flesh, standing idly by while someone is slaughtering your little children? Raping your wife? Cutting out Zosia's eyes? To allow such evil to continue when it is directly within one's power to stop it defies the very meaning of benevolence. It is not clear how allowing the murderer to continue in his murderous ways promotes the highest good of all.
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 10/6/2004 2:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Can anyone imagine Jesus, in the flesh, standing idly by while someone is slaughtering your little children? Raping your wife? Cutting out Zosia's eyes? To allow such evil to continue when it is directly within one's power to stop it defies the very meaning of benevolence. It is not clear how allowing the murderer to continue in his murderous ways promotes the highest good of all.
Thank you, JEE! I agree with this. I believe those who don't believe in war would do something if it became personal. If a loved one or a vulnerable child were being tortured.
I believe BALANCE is what God is all about. Throughout scriptures God is balanced in his love and wrath. To EVERYTHING there is a season. There is a time for war. There is a time for peace. I don't believe there is an either/or in the Kingdom. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/6/2004 3:32 PM (GMT -6) | | John and Quest,
quote:
Thank you, JEE! I agree with this. I believe those who don't believe in war would do something if it became personal. If a loved one or a vulnerable child were being tortured.
This is where I, too, have problems with the "love thy enemy" being absolute. If the only way I can prevent a molester from victimizing a child is by hurting or killing him, does "love thine enemy" really prevent me from acting in the defense of the child? But if it doesn't, the argument against war in principle seems to be invalid - as would the same principled argument against a Christian being a policeman, etc. On the other hand, all the other PRACTICAL arguments Doc mentioned are valid and should be considered by all Christians before joining the military, the police force, or submitting to a draft.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/6/2004 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John and Quest,
quote:
Thank you, JEE! I agree with this. I believe those who don't believe in war would do something if it became personal. If a loved one or a vulnerable child were being tortured.
This is where I, too, have problems with the "love thy enemy" being absolute. If the only way I can prevent a molester from victimizing a child is by hurting or killing him, does "love thine enemy" really prevent me from acting in the defense of the child?
If we (mistakenly) define love as "doing what someone else wants" or "acting in the interest of another," (but not necessarily the interest of all) then I can see where the issue would give the thoughtful person pause.
However, if we define love (agape) as "willing the highest good of ALL with respect to their relative worth to God" then the apparent problem is resolved. It is in the highest good of all that a murderer be brought to justice, even put to death. God himself, in both the Old and New Testaments, affirms the necessity of the death penalty in some cases.
That said, of course ANY conscientious Christian should not act rashly; however, in certain situations, quick response is required. Therefore, it would be best to have this issue thoroughly well thought ought before one finds oneself in a situation such as trying to stop a murderer, rapist, child molester, etc.
John
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/6/2004 4:55 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
quote:
If we (mistakenly) define love as "doing what someone else wants" or "acting in the interest of another," (but not necessarily the interest of all) then I can see where the issue would give the conscientious Christian pause. However, if we define love as "willing the highest good of ALL with respect to their relative worth to God" then the apparent problem is resolved. It is in the highest good of all that a murderer be brought to justice, even put to death. God himself, in both the Old and New Testaments, affirms the necessity of the death penalty in some cases.
Well put. But I think Doc believes that capital punishment is wrong since it is vengeance. He takes the passage about "rendering evil for evil" absolutely like the "love thine enemy" passage if I remember correctly. My thinking is that Romans 13 makes clear that the "authorities" have been delegated the power (and duty) to execute God's vengeance for the sake of deterring evil. Thus, it is not wrong, in principle, for a Christian to be a police - though it may very well put him/her in compromising positions, as Doc has warned.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/6/2004 5:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
quote:
If we (mistakenly) define love as "doing what someone else wants" or "acting in the interest of another," (but not necessarily the interest of all) then I can see where the issue would give the conscientious Christian pause. However, if we define love as "willing the highest good of ALL with respect to their relative worth to God" then the apparent problem is resolved. It is in the highest good of all that a murderer be brought to justice, even put to death. God himself, in both the Old and New Testaments, affirms the necessity of the death penalty in some cases.
Well put. But I think Doc believes that capital punishment is wrong since it is vengeance. He takes the passage about "rendering evil for evil" absolutely like the "love thine enemy" passage if I remember correctly. My thinking is that Romans 13 makes clear that the "authorities" have been delegated the power (and duty) to execute God's vengeance for the sake of deterring evil. Thus, it is not wrong, in principle, for a Christian to be a police - though it may very well put him/her in compromising positions, as Doc has warned.
This is an issue on which I find the historic "two kingdoms" view of Covenant Theology to be very helpful. The problem with saying the death penalty is categorically in all cases wrong based on the ethics of the Sermon on the Mount, is that it assumes that the secular gov't is bound by Christian ethics (which it is clearly not). The state is not the church, nor vice versa.
Also, in saying that carrying out the death penalty ALWAYS involves vengeance, it seems to me that we are assume more than we can prove about the heart/motives of those carrying out the sentence of the state.
Further, if carrying out the death penalty is by definition opposed to benevolence, then we must say that God's OT Law was in many cases NOT benevolent, and that Paul was encouraging the Roman governor to sin when he said, "If I have done anything WORTHY of death, I am not afraid to die."
In our day, it is not clear how being the one who pulls the switch on the electric chair (as horrifying as that would be) by definition means the one doing this has hatred in his heart for the criminal. From what I've read of those involved in the execution of prisoners in particular, most executioners DON'T relish their duty.
John
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/7/2004 1:42 AM (GMT -6) | | John saidquote:
...and the Father does in fact at times execute those who rebel against His goodness/benevolence (many examples of this in Scripture), why must we infer that Jesus' command to love our enemies precludes us from using physical force to subdue, for instance, a known criminal?
Well, the Father has full knowledge of good and evil - we do not. So the question is how can we (without that knowledge) ever make JUST decisions to execute anyone? I may be wrong, but I don't think Dr. Boyd would say you shouldn't "subdue" a criminal. If someone was hurting a child, for example, subduing them would be the loving thing to do (for both the criminal AND the child).
quote:
...Can anyone imagine Jesus, in the flesh, standing idly by while someone is slaughtering your little children? Raping your wife? Cutting out Zosia's eyes? To allow such evil to continue when it is directly within one's power to stop it defies the very meaning of benevolence. It is not clear how allowing the murderer to continue in his murderous ways promotes the highest good of all.
[/size=3] [/font=Book Antiqua]
This is why I thought you were talking about Jesus. Personally I could see Jesus subduing the person committing those acts, however, I couldn't see Jesus killing/stoning that person for committing those acts.
For what its worth.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/7/2004 2:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
quote:
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...and the Father does in fact at times execute those who rebel against His goodness/benevolence (many examples of this in Scripture), why must we infer that Jesus' command to love our enemies precludes us from using physical force to subdue, for instance, a known criminal?
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Well, the Father has full knowledge of good and evil - we do not. So the question is how can we (without that knowledge) ever make JUST decisions to execute anyone?
As John said, the OT makes it pretty clear what a just cause for capital punishment is. The real question is what constitutes proof of guilt. We don't use the 2 or 3 witness approach of the OT.
quote:
I may be wrong, but I don't think Dr. Boyd would say you shouldn't "subdue" a criminal. If someone was hurting a child, for example, subduing them would be the loving thing to do (for both the criminal AND the child).
Doc asked "what would loving your enemy look like?" I don't think subduing and using stun guns on someone looks like love - it looks like judgement and intolerance.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Can anyone imagine Jesus, in the flesh, standing idly by while someone is slaughtering your little children? Raping your wife? Cutting out Zosia's eyes? To allow such evil to continue when it is directly within one's power to stop it defies the very meaning of benevolence. It is not clear how allowing the murderer to continue in his murderous ways promotes the highest good of all.
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This is why I thought you were talking about Jesus. Personally I could see Jesus subduing the person committing those acts, however, I couldn't see Jesus killing/stoning that person for committing those acts.
Jesus is going to judge the whole world in righteousness. So what's the problem?
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/8/2004 3:57 AM (GMT -6) | | This thread reminded me of the prayer of St. Francis.
Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there is hatred let me bring your love;
Where there is injury – your pardon, Lord;
And where there's doubt, true faith in you.
Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved, as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there is despair in life let me bring hope;
Where there is darkness, only light;
And where there's sadness, ever joy.
Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved, as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
In giving to all men that we receive;
And in dying that we're born to eternal life.
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/8/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
This thread reminded me of the prayer of St. Francis.
Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there is hatred let me bring your love;
Where there is injury – your pardon, Lord;
And where there's doubt, true faith in you.
Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved, as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there is despair in life let me bring hope;
Where there is darkness, only light;
And where there's sadness, ever joy.
Oh, Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved, as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
In giving to all men that we receive;
And in dying that we're born to eternal life.
Amen, Selah. This is my prayer, too. According to Romans 13, the secular gov't is in some sense a minister of peace, too. 
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