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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/2/2004 10:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
Clearly we aren't to try to "divine" things ("divination") that aren't give to us to know.. people's "forturnes" and that nonesense. But what if the mind had by nature a number of abilities we have sense lost because of the fall? What if some rare people are able to, to some degree, recover these suppressed abilities? Do we know enough about the brain to say definitively what it can and cannot do? (nope) I've encountered people who sometimes have an uncanny ability to know what your thinking or know information they couldn't have gotten by other means -- and it served no demonic or godly purpose. It was just there. Why think it has to be angelic or demonic? Couldn't it just be natural?
Of course, a person who had such a gift could USE it either for God or for demonic purposes. But the ability itself could just be natural.
Greg
Greg,
You asked,"Couldn't it just be natural?" If we could consistently and scientifically prove that humans (acting alone) had this ability then perhaps we could begin to make a case that it was a "natural ability" like running fast. There has been no scientific "proof" anywhere near conclusive to support this. The burden of proof that what we consider supernatural knowledge or power is a natural and innately human ability is solidly on those who would make that claim. In addition, the vast majority of those who pursure or practice psychic powers admit to more than interaction in the physical world. There is a theme of contact with spirits, the dead, or other intelligent beings and interaction with them.
I actually have a theory which I think is scriptural that humans at one time did have the ability to have physical interaction with spirits as seen in Genesis 6:3. I don't believe it was something that was lost immediately with the fall but afterwards. My theory aside (it isn't really provable anyway and this site was rather harsh with it), for you to state, "What if some rare people are able to, to some degree, recover these suppressed abilities?" you would have to prove the way something that was lost (which, based upon the view of this site, is far from being proved) was recovered (which is far from being proved as well).
Do you think that this ability is part of what Christ purchased for us now on the cross? If so, why is it only some rare or gifted people?
Spen Lake
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MrIndifference
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 10/2/2004 9:07 PM (GMT -6) | | The whole topic of discerning between what is a spiritual gift and what is divination/psychic ability has been one that I visit every so often. For me, it is not so much the desire to have an intellectual understanding of it, but instead one of necessity in my spiritual walk with God.
Back around '93 I started to realize that I had an uncanny ability to "pick up" on others emotions. Some call it empathy. Some call it emotional hyper-sensitivity. What ever you want to call it, I have it. It can come out in a couple different way. Sometimes I know the exact emotions that someone is feeling, while other times it is more a general sense that something is wrong. What is this? I really wish I knew. Is it a spiritual gift? That is the question that I have been asking myself for quite a while.
When I first started noticing this, I was not a Christian; at least not a practicing one. At the time God was the furthest thing from my mind. Shortly after I met the person that was to be my ex-wife. She was severely bi-polar and in her manic phases she was extremely dillusional. When I met her, no one knew how to deal with her but me. I knew when she was starting to go manic even before she did. A part of me thinks that my ability to sense emotions may have been something awakened in my by the Holy Spirit and that in part I was put into my ex-wifes life to help her through a difficult period in her life. After a while, I started exploring to see the potentian in my empathy. It became a game where I would go out to coffee with some friends and try to see what I could pick up from the people there. It went from something that could be used in a potentially edifying manner to me wanting to exert my power over others. How does it glorify God if you know the hurts and fears of someone and either do nothing about it or even worse, use it against them? Eventually it got to the point where I was totally out of control. There were so many emotions bombarding me at any given moment I lost sense of my own emotions and lived in a continual state of chaos.
Now that I am a christian I have to ask myself certain questions. Is this a spiritual gift from God that I perverted over time because of my letting my flesh dictate the terms of its use? Was it even from God in the first place? Would He dispense something like this to someone who is not even a Christ-Follower/in relationship with Him? If it isn't from God, then wouldn't this be in all actuallity a form of devination? Can spiritual gifts be used by the Great Deciever? If you think about it, this can put a greater emphasis on our need for Gods discernment.
MrI. :| | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/3/2004 3:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MrIndifference
The whole topic of discerning between what is a spiritual gift and what is divination/psychic ability has been one that I visit every so often. For me, it is not so much the desire to have an intellectual understanding of it, but instead one of necessity in my spiritual walk with God.
Back around '93 I started to realize that I had an uncanny ability to "pick up" on others emotions. Some call it empathy. Some call it emotional hyper-sensitivity. What ever you want to call it, I have it. It can come out in a couple different way. Sometimes I know the exact emotions that someone is feeling, while other times it is more a general sense that something is wrong. What is this? I really wish I knew. Is it a spiritual gift? That is the question that I have been asking myself for quite a while.
When I first started noticing this, I was not a Christian; at least not a practicing one. At the time God was the furthest thing from my mind. Shortly after I met the person that was to be my ex-wife. She was severely bi-polar and in her manic phases she was extremely dillusional. When I met her, no one knew how to deal with her but me. I knew when she was starting to go manic even before she did. A part of me thinks that my ability to sense emotions may have been something awakened in my by the Holy Spirit and that in part I was put into my ex-wifes life to help her through a difficult period in her life. After a while, I started exploring to see the potentian in my empathy. It became a game where I would go out to coffee with some friends and try to see what I could pick up from the people there. It went from something that could be used in a potentially edifying manner to me wanting to exert my power over others. How does it glorify God if you know the hurts and fears of someone and either do nothing about it or even worse, use it against them? Eventually it got to the point where I was totally out of control. There were so many emotions bombarding me at any given moment I lost sense of my own emotions and lived in a continual state of chaos.
Now that I am a christian I have to ask myself certain questions. Is this a spiritual gift from God that I perverted over time because of my letting my flesh dictate the terms of its use? Was it even from God in the first place? Would He dispense something like this to someone who is not even a Christ-Follower/in relationship with Him? If it isn't from God, then wouldn't this be in all actuallity a form of devination? Can spiritual gifts be used by the Great Deciever? If you think about it, this can put a greater emphasis on our need for Gods discernment.
Mr.I,
Interesting post. The place to begin looking for an answer you can stand on is the authority in these matters, scriptures. Where in scripture does it define "emotion reading" as spiritual gift from God? I don't think that we ever find this capacity defined as a gift we are to pursue. The fact, it would be difficult to call this activity a "gift of the Holy Spirit" in that you were active in it while you were an unbeliever, unless we believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to all mankind regardless of whether they are believers or not. I believe that it was something "spiritual" as we are explicitly told that men don't see the hearts. God reserves this for Himself. Unbelievers do not have a natural and God-given ability to see hearts as I understand the scriptures. Spirits, however, can give knowledge that is hidden to men. I think that this is what you are describing. Divination has to do with hidden knowledge that spirits provide. quote:
for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
quote:
for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
quote:
If we had forgotten the name of our God
Or extended our hands to a strange god,
Would not God find this out?
For He knows the secrets of the heart.
quote:
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
“I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/4/2004 4:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello MrIndifference,
Thanks for sharing your interesting story about the uncanny ability to "pick up" on others emotions.
You said “Eventually it got to the point where I was totally out of control. There were so many emotions bombarding me at any given moment I lost sense of my own emotions and lived in a continual state of chaos.”
I was interested in any problems that might have arisen when your “intuition” was deemed by others as being wrong, off base and not true.
Also, you eluded that your “intuition” might have been helpful to your wife. Can you touch on how your “intuition” was helpful to others.
Thanks,
Mark
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/4/2004 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, I'm clairvoyant! I can predict with perfect accuracy how any theological determinist will argue against the open view!
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/4/2004 7:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
Unfortunately, the only sixth sense I have is I tend to know when people are unhappy with me even before they open their mouths.
Wouldn't call it much of a gift though.
"Sixth sense"….wow, I was always told my guilty conscience was convicting me.  | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/5/2004 7:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen: You asked,"Couldn't it just be natural?" If we could consistently and scientifically prove that humans (acting alone) had this ability then perhaps we could begin to make a case that it was a "natural ability" like running fast. There has been no scientific "proof" anywhere near conclusive to support this. The burden of proof that what we consider supernatural knowledge or power is a natural and innately human ability is solidly on those who would make that claim.
Doc: For a period of several years, my daughter sporatically exhibited some starting paranormal abilities. There was nothing sinister or divine about them... just wierd. It led me to do research on the phenomenon, especially research carried out at Duke. I was very impressed, and surprised, by the amount of empirical documentation they have on this stuff. However, whether its considered "proof" or not depends a lot on the presuppositions one takes to the findings.
Now, I have ZERO stake in this either way. I just know from experience that it happens, and the "natural" explanation fits my experience better than the "necessarily divine or demonic" explanation.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/6/2004 3:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
Spen: You asked,"Couldn't it just be natural?" If we could consistently and scientifically prove that humans (acting alone) had this ability then perhaps we could begin to make a case that it was a "natural ability" like running fast. There has been no scientific "proof" anywhere near conclusive to support this. The burden of proof that what we consider supernatural knowledge or power is a natural and innately human ability is solidly on those who would make that claim.
Doc: For a period of several years, my daughter sporatically exhibited some starting paranormal abilities. There was nothing sinister or divine about them... just wierd. It led me to do research on the phenomenon, especially research carried out at Duke. I was very impressed, and surprised, by the amount of empirical documentation they have on this stuff. However, whether its considered "proof" or not depends a lot on the presuppositions one takes to the findings.
Now, I have ZERO stake in this either way. I just know from experience that it happens, and the "natural" explanation fits my experience better than the "necessarily divine or demonic" explanation.
Greg
I dislike the definition of "psychic powers" which implies somekind of supernatural ability to proactively or "will" or choose to flex my inherent powers to address a need or situation. A better definition of what you are descibing could be "sensitivity to spirits." In this case it would be like a sensitive radio receiver that picks up more signals than a weaker one. This sensitivity to spirits is not something that used for the good or bad. I don't find that the apostle's had some innate ability to hear the Holy Spirit because of something like this. Instead, their claims were based upon their hearing with their tangible physical senses the words and expression of God.
If someone is senitive to spirits and spirits bring information regarding the emotions and/or information hidden from the natural senses, how would this be neutral? Look at the narrative of the slave girl in Acts and the "information" that she declared to any who would listen, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
Spen Lake
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/6/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | This subject really troubles me because my mom and my brother both have had many premonition dreams since childhood. They're usually associated with the death of a loved one. My mom, who was from Wisconsin but was staying with some family friends in South Dakota when she was around 12 or so, dreamt that her father died, and the next morning they told her she'd have to go home that day, unexpectedly. She was upset because she was supposed to stay all summer, but they didn't tell her why she had to leave. When she got back to Wisconsin, her mom and four sisters all greeted her at the train station and she asked, "Where's Daddy?" Her mother said, "Daddy's in heaven." He had died of a blood clot in his heart at the age of 47. He was in bed at home and my mom's oldest sister was watching him while his wife called for an ambulance. The sister saw him take his last breath.
The dream my mom had was really weird, too. In it, she walked from the living room into the kitchen and there was blood all over the floor. Her mom was on her hands and knees cleaning it up and my mom asked, "What happened?" Her mother answered, "I killed Daddy."
A few months later, my mom had the same dream again, only it was about the people she stayed with in South Dakota. She walked into the same kitchen and the woman was cleaning up the blood, and she said she had killed her husband. When my mom got up the next day, she found out that the man had had a heart attack, but he didn't die.
She's had many other dreams. One was the night before she discovered that a family friend's son had hung himself. Another was before finding out that my dad's friend had to go to the hospital for something serious - I don't remember what.
The most powerful dream I remember her telling me about was when she and my dad took a vacation somewhere and my older brother and I stayed home. She woke up one night crying because in her dream she was walking with my brother by a foggy lake. All of a sudden he ran out into the fog and my mom kept calling after him, "Tom! Tom! Don't run towards the lake. You can't see anything b/c of the fog and you'll drown!" She kept calling him and he never returned. That's when she woke up crying and my dad comforted her.
Well, it turns out that at that time my brother was in high school and suicidal. During that vacation that my parents were on, he went to the basement and took out my mom's old hunting rifle that she used to pheasant hunt with her father when she was a kid. Tom put it in his mouth and was going to kill himself, but something stopped him. He told me one of the reasons he didn't go through with it was because he didn't want me to have to find him like that. Anyway, he did this around 3:00 in the morning, and my mom had that dream about him at around 3:00 in the morning, probably on that same night.
Tom has had dreams like this before the deaths of loved ones, like my grandparents, and many others that he hasn't described to me.
Both my mom and my brother can sense ghosts, too. When I was little we all toured the Queen Mary ship in California, and they both sensed the spiritual activity there.
I always wonder about whether this ability really comes from God or not. I tend to think it doesn't because they both really hate it. The dreams terrify them and they'd rather not have them at all. I told my mom that if she ever had any more premonition dreams, she should pray for the person, like my brother in that one dream. She said she wished she had thought of that. She thought she was so stupid for not doing so. It never even occured to her that she could use that ability in a positive way.
I've had about 3 or 4 premonition dreams but only after sleeping for more than 12 hours. My mom never gets more than 5 to 7 hours of sleep a night, and my brother sleeps for maybe 7 to 10 hours, usually.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/7/2004 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
This subject really troubles me because my mom and my brother both have had many premonition dreams since childhood. They're usually associated with the death of a loved one. My mom, who was from Wisconsin but was staying with some family friends in South Dakota when she was around 12 or so, dreamt that her father died, and the next morning they told her she'd have to go home that day, unexpectedly. She was upset because she was supposed to stay all summer, but they didn't tell her why she had to leave. When she got back to Wisconsin, her mom and four sisters all greeted her at the train station and she asked, "Where's Daddy?" Her mother said, "Daddy's in heaven." He had died of a blood clot in his heart at the age of 47. He was in bed at home and my mom's oldest sister was watching him while his wife called for an ambulance. The sister saw him take his last breath.
The dream my mom had was really weird, too. In it, she walked from the living room into the kitchen and there was blood all over the floor. Her mom was on her hands and knees cleaning it up and my mom asked, "What happened?" Her mother answered, "I killed Daddy."
A few months later, my mom had the same dream again, only it was about the people she stayed with in South Dakota. She walked into the same kitchen and the woman was cleaning up the blood, and she said she had killed her husband. When my mom got up the next day, she found out that the man had had a heart attack, but he didn't die.
She's had many other dreams. One was the night before she discovered that a family friend's son had hung himself. Another was before finding out that my dad's friend had to go to the hospital for something serious - I don't remember what.
The most powerful dream I remember her telling me about was when she and my dad took a vacation somewhere and my older brother and I stayed home. She woke up one night crying because in her dream she was walking with my brother by a foggy lake. All of a sudden he ran out into the fog and my mom kept calling after him, "Tom! Tom! Don't run towards the lake. You can't see anything b/c of the fog and you'll drown!" She kept calling him and he never returned. That's when she woke up crying and my dad comforted her.
Well, it turns out that at that time my brother was in high school and suicidal. During that vacation that my parents were on, he went to the basement and took out my mom's old hunting rifle that she used to pheasant hunt with her father when she was a kid. Tom put it in his mouth and was going to kill himself, but something stopped him. He told me one of the reasons he didn't go through with it was because he didn't want me to have to find him like that. Anyway, he did this around 3:00 in the morning, and my mom had that dream about him at around 3:00 in the morning, probably on that same night.
Tom has had dreams like this before the deaths of loved ones, like my grandparents, and many others that he hasn't described to me.
Both my mom and my brother can sense ghosts, too. When I was little we all toured the Queen Mary ship in California, and they both sensed the spiritual activity there.
I always wonder about whether this ability really comes from God or not. I tend to think it doesn't because they both really hate it. The dreams terrify them and they'd rather not have them at all. I told my mom that if she ever had any more premonition dreams, she should pray for the person, like my brother in that one dream. She said she wished she had thought of that. She thought she was so stupid for not doing so. It never even occured to her that she could use that ability in a positive way.
I've had about 3 or 4 premonition dreams but only after sleeping for more than 12 hours. My mom never gets more than 5 to 7 hours of sleep a night, and my brother sleeps for maybe 7 to 10 hours, usually.
Hey Tigress,
I am very intrigued by your post. I don't know what to think about part of this...the premonition-type dreams. I do think God could definitely give them. I also think satan may be able to influence dreams too. I have read extensively of John and Paula Sandford's experiences with dreams and visions. They are soooo amazing too. I have a fantasy of setting up a table at my local Barnes and Nobles and offering dream interpretation. I read of how someone, I think John Paul Jackson, had done this at the Olympic games. I don't hold myself up as greatly gifted in interpretation...but gifted to be called a child of God and gifted with the willingness to listen and pray for and about people. Dreams are a very mysterious thing. Trying to decide what message(s) God may want us to have from them is also mysterious. I think it is a definite way God speaks. I think I read that there are about 100 instances in the Bible of dreaming and God directing. I'm just willing to hear and pray over whatever a soul would be wondering about. I wonder if we could share dreams and ask for interpretations on this board?
On the issue at hand...certainly the things God does will always be subject to some kinds of satanic imitation or confusion. We need each other to help sort through these phenomena, to help get understanding of what God is saying and doing. And the written word is for light. It does not directly tell us every answer.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/8/2004 2:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey Tigress,
I am very intrigued by your post. I don't know what to think about part of this...the premonition-type dreams. I do think God could definitely give them. I also think satan may be able to influence dreams too. I have read extensively of John and Paula Sandford's experiences with dreams and visions. They are soooo amazing too. I have a fantasy of setting up a table at my local Barnes and Nobles and offering dream interpretation. I read of how someone, I think John Paul Jackson, had done this at the Olympic games. I don't hold myself up as greatly gifted in interpretation...but gifted to be called a child of God and gifted with the willingness to listen and pray for and about people. Dreams are a very mysterious thing. Trying to decide what message(s) God may want us to have from them is also mysterious. I think it is a definite way God speaks. I think I read that there are about 100 instances in the Bible of dreaming and God directing. I'm just willing to hear and pray over whatever a soul would be wondering about. I wonder if we could share dreams and ask for interpretations on this board?
On the issue at hand...certainly the things God does will always be subject to some kinds of satanic imitation or confusion. We need each other to help sort through these phenomena, to help get understanding of what God is saying and doing. And the written word is for light. It does not directly tell us every answer.
Barry
Barry,
I think that your comment and conclusion is correct to a point.
quote:
On the issue at hand...certainly the things God does will always be subject to some kinds of satanic imitation or confusion. We need each other to help sort through these phenomena, to help get understanding of what God is saying and doing. And the written word is for light. It does not directly tell us every answer.
When you admit that the written word does not directly tell us every answer to the problems of our daily life, I would agree. It is complete and thorough, however, regarding everything having to do with life and godliness. We aren't called to seek God's will for us in dreams. We are never told to seek for answers of any kind in dreams or impressions. Seeking for God's voice in dreams would be the same as looking to the weather, tea leaves, and divination to decide what God was saying to us. (I have been involved with those that seek for God in this kind of way) I am not saying that God doesn't use dreams, and even miracles to communicate to us, but that is not where we are told to seek His voice. We can choose our actions and move forward the best we know how , considering all of the subjective inputs for what they are, trusting that in spite of our "choices" God can and will lead us in opening and closing doors for us and carrying us along even in and through our decisions. We have all that we need concerning what is truly important already clearly revealed to us.quote:
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Any and all additional subjective revelations, feelings, impressions, dreams, etc. cannot be "definitely God" as you have just admitted. These must be compared with the written Word. For decisions and issues not explicitly covered in teh written Word, you have liberty to choose, the word loved by many on this site. You can choose either way and God is not offended or more pleased. This temporal life and its decisions and choices is set in an enternal context and this is what we have hope for as we struggle through the sufferings and confusions here and now.
Discernment is not a feeling or an impression. Discernment is always based upon the written Word. Beyond the written Word we have freedom.
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/8/2004 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Barry,
I think that your comment and conclusion is correct to a point.
quote:
On the issue at hand...certainly the things God does will always be subject to some kinds of satanic imitation or confusion. We need each other to help sort through these phenomena, to help get understanding of what God is saying and doing. And the written word is for light. It does not directly tell us every answer.
When you admit that the written word does not directly tell us every answer to the problems of our daily life, I would agree. It is complete and thorough, however, regarding everything having to do with life and godliness. We aren't called to seek God's will for us in dreams. We are never told to seek for answers of any kind in dreams or impressions. Seeking for God's voice in dreams would be the same as looking to the weather, tea leaves, and divination to decide what God was saying to us. (I have been involved with those that seek for God in this kind of way) I am not saying that God doesn't use dreams, and even miracles to communicate to us, but that is not where we are told to seek His voice. We can choose our actions and move forward the best we know how , considering all of the subjective inputs for what they are, trusting that in spite of our "choices" God can and will lead us in opening and closing doors for us and carrying us along even in and through our decisions. We have all that we need concerning what is truly important already clearly revealed to us.quote:
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Any and all additional subjective revelations, feelings, impressions, dreams, etc. cannot be "definitely God" as you have just admitted. These must be compared with the written Word. For decisions and issues not explicitly covered in teh written Word, you have liberty to choose, the word loved by many on this site. You can choose either way and God is not offended or more pleased. This temporal life and its decisions and choices is set in an enternal context and this is what we have hope for as we struggle through the sufferings and confusions here and now.
Discernment is not a feeling or an impression. Discernment is always based upon the written Word. Beyond the written Word we have freedom. Spen Lake
Spen,
Could it be that God is seeking me? Seeking to tell me something...over and over. Could he not have given me a dream every day for years and be grieved that I haven't paid attention? It does say as I'm sure you know in Joel...about the young men and women prophesying and the old men dreaming dreams. How can you say we should not seek God this way? How can asking God for revelation in this quite rich format be wrong? Now I agree completely that a strict interpretation may be dangerous...whether myown on my own dream or someone else's. Is there a problem with writing down dreams that come to me?
Surely I could have an idea to do something...like start a church... and it be fine with scripture but not fine with God? There are just so many things that require us to have good counsel, good community, and good hearts when it comes to knowing the will of GOD for specific things in our lives...who to marry, what job to take etc. Having the whole written word at our disposal will not answer these questions totally. We need more.
And I have this discussion often. Is God still speaking with as much anointing, power, and guidance as He ever has? Is anyone still writing and speaking things that are on par with the spirit-breathed message of the written word? Are any dreams coming from God that will prove to be as huge in history as the ones King Nebuchudnezzar and others had?
I must believe so. God has never been silenced.
I enjoy this community dialogue and am so interested in how each other thinks and believes and chooses their way.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/9/2004 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Spen,
Could it be that God is seeking me? Seeking to tell me something...over and over. Could he not have given me a dream every day for years and be grieved that I haven't paid attention? It does say as I'm sure you know in Joel...about the young men and women prophesying and the old men dreaming dreams. How can you say we should not seek God this way? How can asking God for revelation in this quite rich format be wrong? Now I agree completely that a strict interpretation may be dangerous...whether myown on my own dream or someone else's. Is there a problem with writing down dreams that come to me?
Surely I could have an idea to do something...like start a church... and it be fine with scripture but not fine with God? There are just so many things that require us to have good counsel, good community, and good hearts when it comes to knowing the will of GOD for specific things in our lives...who to marry, what job to take etc. Having the whole written word at our disposal will not answer these questions totally. We need more.
And I have this discussion often. Is God still speaking with as much anointing, power, and guidance as He ever has? Is anyone still writing and speaking things that are on par with the spirit-breathed message of the written word? Are any dreams coming from God that will prove to be as huge in history as the ones King Nebuchudnezzar and others had?
I must believe so. God has never been silenced.
I enjoy this community dialogue and am so interested in how each other thinks and believes and chooses their way.
Barry
Barry,
Thank you for your kind and heartfelt response. I will attempt to communicate something about the following three issues that you raised in your post. Please beleive me when I say that I DO BELIEVE that God continues to work and communicate with us "subjectively" today. I do believe that God can send dreams, visions, and other experiences that we find in the Bible. I also believe that God could empower someone with supernatural strength like Sampson if he wished or God could (and it says He will) empower men to have fire come out of their mouths and kill those that seek to harm them. quote:
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way
I also believe that we need to obey the commands of scriptures. William Branham claimed to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 but we know that he was a liar because God tells us explicitly what happens to the 2 witnesses at their death. quote:
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.
I think that I must have poorly communicated the difference in "certain" and "subjective" communications of God. What we know for certain is only what is written in the Word. We are also given impressions and subjective experiences which perhaps are from God, but are not necessarily certain. To claim that these subjective "words" or dreams, etc. are certainly God's Word to us is to give them to much authority.
Barry's Issues:
1. "How can you say we should not seek God this way?" While acknowledging that God can use dreams, show me just one passage where God commands people to seek Him this way. He does tell us to seek Him in His word. Seeking God's direction in dreams is not at all the same as believing that God can speak to us through the dreams that we happen to experience. I am interested in your scriptural foundation for believing that we should seek God's will for us in our dreams.
2. "There are just so many things that require us to have good counsel, good community, and good hearts when it comes to knowing the will of GOD for specific things in our lives...who to marry, what job to take etc. Having the whole written word at our disposal will not answer these questions totally. We need more."
On what scriptural basis do you claim we need more? I believe that we now have everything communicated to us necessary for life and Godliness. We seek and pray for God's guidance for who to marry and then we are free to make our decision based upon all input and counsel. While it may seem vague or nebulous, I promise you that after you are married, you have the mate that God has given you for what God has joined together, let no man separate.quote:
I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world
3. "Is God still speaking with as much anointing, power, and guidance as He ever has? Is anyone still writing and speaking things that are on par with the spirit-breathed message of the written word? Are any dreams coming from God that will prove to be as huge in history as the ones King Nebuchudnezzar and others had? I must believe so. God has never been silenced."
This comment seems the most problematic. Where do you find scriptural support for this? If I interpret this in its most extreme, you are saying that there can still be additions to scriptures. The apostles that Jesus picked and who witnessed the bodily risen Jesus and who heard His teachings are now dead. There are no more "authoritative" apostles that are apointed directly by God Himself appearing bodily and speaking with vocal cords to human ears and witnesses. All the dreams that are needed for future history as God certainly speaking have already happened. God will certainly continue to speak in dreams as He so desires, and we will continually have to weigh and consider them as not certainly God speaking but "perhaps" God speaking.
Spen Lake
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