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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/15/2004 12:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

"He is both man and God -- in appearance man, in contemplation God."
Gregory of Nyssa, Antittheticus, GNO 3.1, pp.131-233


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/15/2004 12:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"In order that you might have done with the earthbound carnality of your opinions and might learn to be nobler, to ascend with the divinity and not linger on things visible but rise up to spiritual realities, and that you might nowe what is the expression of the nature and what is the expression of the economy"
Gregory of Nazianzus (Oration 29.18--"Third Theological Oration")
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Truth Aficionado
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   Posted 10/15/2004 2:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

"In order that you might have done with the earthbound carnality of your opinions and might learn to be nobler, to ascend with the divinity and not linger on things visible but rise up to spiritual realities, and that you might nowe what is the expression of the nature and what is the expression of the economy"
Gregory of Naziznzus (Oration 29.18--"Third Theological Oration")



AMEN


Welcome back.Approve
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quest for truth
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   Posted 10/15/2004 5:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel,
Would you mind expanding on the topic?Shy

It's nice seeing you back!
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spenlake
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   Posted 10/16/2004 2:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great to hear from you, POW.


Spen Lake

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/16/2004 7:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth

PotOnWheel,
Would you mind expanding on the topic?Shy


I'm reading in preparation for an after church study group (Christian Reformed--a lot of Dutchmen) on the formation of the creeds. They guy who is leading it wanted the topic to better understand what went on before the Reformation. The book is "Creeds in the Making: A Short Introduction to the History of Christian Doctrine" (Fortress Press, 1981; and written between the wars, (c)1935) by an Anglican named Alan Richardson. It looks pretty good!

I'm finishing up John Behr's third book
    See these if you wish:
  • http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?cPath=83&products_id=67

  • and
  • http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=69


But the LOCUS of the whole matter, of the CRUCIFIXION AND EXALTATION of Christ is well pointed out in a short article by Behr: "The Paschal Foundation of Christian Theology" http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/John-Behr/Articles/2001-06-svtq-behr.pdf

ITS GREAT. And I think that it "EXPANDS" on the topic very well. It points out the error of beginning with a formula. Read and see what I'm refering to.

Gotta go do my own reading homework before tomorrow!

- PoW

(And thanks!)
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Tom
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   Posted 10/16/2004 7:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW: It points out the error of beginning with a formula.

Tom: That rings true with me. I like it.

Tom
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/16/2004 7:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From Behr's article, page 17 (of 24), where he begins summarizing:
    For all the fathers considered, and examples could be multiplied easily, the Incarnation of the Word is not located in the birth of Jesus from Mary as a distinct event from the Passion and exaltation. In some ways, such a position results from assuming the shorthand formulae as “dogmatic facts,” and then conflating John 1:14, which does not speak of a birth, with the infancy narratives, which do not speak of an incarnation of a heavenly, previously existing being. That Jesus was indeed born from Mary—a specific, temporal, historical event—was indeed assumed as a given. But, it is essential to note, to describe this event as “the Incarnation of the Word” can only be done by reflecting on Christ in the light of the cross through the medium of Scripture. When this is done, when the Passion, the crucifixion, and exaltation, is taken as the central axis of theological reflection, then, as we saw from Origen earlier, this becomes determinative for contemplating the identity of Christ, and everything else is understood through this prism and in this pattern. Thus, the infancy narratives are not an attempt to pre-serve accurate historical information regarding the birth of Christ, but are, as Raymond Brown has so clearly pointed out, a retelling of the basic kerygma in a mode appropriate for the occasion. This point is equally evident from iconography, which depicts the Christ not in a stable, but wrapped in swaddling clothes and lain in a cave, the shape of which mirrors the posture of the virgin, just as he was lain in the virgin cave owned by the other Joseph to emerge as the exalted Lord. The same point is made even more dramati-cally in the hymnography for the pre-feast of the Nativity, which consciously uses the same imagery and phrases as the material for Holy Week, which itself culminates in the Paschal reading of the Prologue of John.


I think that samples things quite well.

- PoW
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quest for truth
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   Posted 10/16/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW
quote:
When this is done, when the Passion, the crucifixion, and exaltation, is taken as the central axis of theological reflection, then, as we saw from Origen earlier, this becomes determinative for contemplating the identity of Christ, and everything else is understood through this prism and in this pattern.


Thank you for explaining this further. I like it!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/16/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth

Thank you for explaining this further. I like it!

Thank you too.


Here is the next paragraph. It's been holding my attention:
    "Many other examples from the tradition of the Church could be brought in to exemplify the point. For instance, one hymn which is particularly interesting when viewed in this perspective is the “Only-begotten Son” attributed to Justinian. Although it is easily heard (especially in English) in the theological perspective outlined earlier, that is, as Trinitarian theology — “Only begotten Son and Word of God”—followed by “Incarnation” and Christology — “who accepted to become flesh for our salvation” — nevertheless, the subject, the addressee, of the whole hymn is in fact “Christ God” (given in the vocative), who is positioned between being crucified and trampling down death by death, culminating in the acknowledgement that he is one of the Trinity and to be glorified with the Father and the Spirit. Rather than being read as a chronological narrative, which would ultimately temporalize God, the whole hymn is a reflection on the crucified and exalted Christ: it is confessional, rather than mythological. The same point is equally evident, though often overlooked, in the creeds and dogmatic definitions of the Councils. For instance, the Chalcedonian definition specifies that it is one and the same Jesus Christ who is both God and man, one hypostasis in two natures, and that it is he who is Lord, God, Son and Logos — in other words, “logos” is a title of Jesus Christ, rather than being the name of the eternal second person of the Trinity who “subsequently” (as if God is subject to time) becomes the man Jesus Christ. It is one and the same Jesus Christ, as St Cyril of Alexandria affirms so emphatically, who is from the Father as the Word of God and from the line of David as man — two births but one and the same subject, Jesus Christ."


Amen!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/18/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

From The Nicene Faith: Formation of Christian Theology, vol. II, (Linked above!) by John Behr: "... theological reflection, beginning with the original apostles and continuing with all those who follow in their tradition, develops as a response to the marvellous work of God in Jesus Christ, the crucified and exalted Lord..."


Behr, on Gregory of Nyssa: "True knowledge of the Beloved is found not in the details of his essence, but rather in his presence in her heart, the consummation of the union of bride and Bridegroom." (p.467. The Nicene Faith)


P. 468-9: "True Christian perfection lies in this continual progress, never remaining content or satisfied, but always open to further progression in the infinite beauty of the Beloved."


Gregory of Nyssa, Song 4:127.10-17 (Behr p.469): "The archer of these arrows is love, and God is love, as we have learnt from the Holy Scripture (1 Jn 4:8), who sends his own chosen arrow (Is 49:2), the only begotten Son, to those who are saved, dippeing the triplle-pointed tip of the arrow in the Spirit of life (and faith is its point), in order that in the one where it lands, the archer along with the arrow may enter, as the Lord says, I and the Father, we will come and make our home in him (Jn14:23)."

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