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markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 11/1/2004 1:07 AM (GMT -6)

From what I've picked up Greg holds to a picture of male-female equality within marriage, I'm not sure what his view of subordination or not within the Trinity is.

The question is really this; I can understand perhaps how within the context of earth and of marriage there might not be a need for a particular designated head, since each person has their own individual roles to a degree anyway. I'm not sure I understand quite how this would work within the context of the Trinity where there would seem to be less basis for differentation based upon involvement or ability. In the event that two members of the Trinity came to mutually exclusive decisions at the same time, would there be a kind of mechanism/pattern for resolving this? are there reasons why this couldn't occur? Do we just assume that it's fudged somehow? It would all seem to be a lot easier if we accepted some kind of authority relation within the Trinity, but then would this not carry over to marriage as well?

Thoughts anyone? (In particular Doc)

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 11/1/2004 1:54 AM (GMT -6)

(particularly given the scriptures relating the headship of christ, that of the father and that of the husband)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/1/2004 2:01 AM (GMT -6)

Compare: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html

Also see St. John Chrysostom's homely on 1 Cor. 15. The "subordination" idea we have is different than the "subordination" of origin the Fathers talked of. See what Chrysostom says about submitting all things, and the relationships of Father and Son. And note particularly the impious notions -- on each end -- that he skillfully steared around.

{PoW}

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/1/2004 2:14 AM (GMT -6)

"The Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit" (Eph 2: 18-22).

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 11/1/2004 7:33 AM (GMT -6)

Here would be 2 instances to consider...

1)In the garden, Christ prayed for the burden to be lifted from Him, but concluded His prayer with, "not as I will, but as Thou!." It was the Son's will that the cup be passed, but the Son submitted to the will of the Father.

2)Matthew 24:36 Jesus states that only the Father knows when Jesus will return to set up the kingdom on earth. Not even Jesus Himself knows.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 11/1/2004 7:40 AM (GMT -6)

ok, and moving on to the male/female thing, would this necessarily carry over to a male headship idea?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/1/2004 10:53 AM (GMT -6)

Marriage is compared in Paul to "Christ and the Church." NOT the Trinity.

I've read of authoritarian types who try to use the "Trinity" to prove their point. (shame)

I've then read contra-authoritarian types who go in the opposite direction and make a mess of the Trinity for the sake of a divisive issue having nothing to do with it. (again...shame)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/1/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

Read this through:

"The Paschal Foundation of Christian Theology"

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 11/23/2004 11:27 PM (GMT -6)

anyone got any more thoughts on submission and roles within the trinity?

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 11/24/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by markporter

anyone got any more thoughts on submission and roles within the trinity?

I've just scanned this thread rather quickly, but it caught my attention. I have a friend who describes the place of the husband in marriage as a headwater - a source from which life springs - not an authority. I like that. Just as Christ is our source, and it is easy to submit to that kind of person.

I've always believed that the role of the Holy Spirit is to point to the person of Jesus Christ - not to draw attention to Himself. Jesus Christ is the source of spiritual life, the well-spring from which it flows, and I have submitted my life to Him. But I continually relate to the Father in an intimate relationship. I recognize Him as creator/sustainor... I realize that the three are like the vines of a garden arch. They are so intertwined that it is virtually impossible to separate them, or tell them apart, thought they are still distinct entities. Does any of this make sense?

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

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