 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/5/2004 5:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | From URL
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/leaving.html
"WHY I LEFT THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT"
- by Andrew Strom (-Nov 3, 2004).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A report on the Kansas City 'Whitedove' Conference, Oct 28-30, 2004. (-Main speakers: Bob Jones, Paul Keith Davis, Bobby Conner, John Paul Jackson - plus Jim Goll and others).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is with great sadness that I make the following report.
I said last week that the 'Whitedove' conference in Kansas City this past weekend would be a pivotal one. It certainly was pivotal for me personally. I wish I could say that there was deep repentance - that the preaching was incredibly anointed and the crowd were on their faces crying before God. I wish I could say that, but I can't. In fact, it seemed to me that the opposite was true. The saddest thing of all is that many people probably came away from this conference saying how "wonderful" and "uplifting" it was (-just as they always do). But I have to tell you, I was grieved to the core by it. Many parts of it I would even describe as spiritually "sick".
Some people believe that the fall of Paul Cain into serious sin is some kind of aberration - just one individual's problem. But I am convinced that the fall of Paul Cain (-who was recognised worldwide as the 'father' of this movement) is a symptom of a much wider disease. The whole movement is sick. As I have stated in previous articles, the 'Prophetic' as we know it is really a "fallen" movement - since the early 1990's. But I always held out hope that it would somehow turn around and get back on track again. In fact, I believed that this conference was a heaven-sent opportunity for that to happen.
However, after what I saw this weekend, I no longer believe this is possible. The deception is now too deep. This movement is being "given over to believe a lie" and I want no part of it. I am cutting myself off, because I cannot afford the disease to spread into what we ourselves are doing. Things have now gotten so bad that we have to separate ourselves - and to do so publicly.
As you know, I requested special prayer from you all last week that a true spirit of Repentance might prevail in this conference. The reason I made this request was because God had woken me up at 6 am the previous Friday and given me a strong word about the conference. (God only wakes me up like this quite rarely - perhaps five times a year).
The word He gave me was that this must be a 'repentance' conference - that this was in essence the "last chance" for the Prophetic movement because it had become more and more corrupt - centered around money and 'ear-tickling' words, false prophecy and so-on. This was a gathering of KEY prophets at a moment in time when the 'father' of the movement had just fallen. It was God's ideal moment for a truly "solemn assembly". (And yes - I did write and pass this word on - in person - to the three main leaders of the conference).
However, what actually eventuated at this event seemed to me to be more akin to a circus than a solemn assembly. The music, the concert-style lighting, the stage dancers, the groaning tables stacked high with books and CD's for sale, the 'ear-tickling', the hype, the $40.00 door fee (plus extra offerings taken each session) - and that's just for starters.
What really bothered me about the weekend was the total lack of any truly 'prophetic' preaching. There was some good stuff on Self-pity and Bitterness right near the start, but after that it was mostly downhill. As always, there were plenty of anecdotes and tales of angelic visitations, etc. There were Scriptures quoted and a few helpful insights. But as far as a message that truly pierces and challenges and convicts - well, don't go looking for that in THIS prophetic movement! In fact, there were warnings AGAINST any message that might come across as even slightly "condemning", and there was even one of those cute talks on the need for "loving oneself", etc.
Today's prophets seem to talk a lot ABOUT the 'sword of the Lord' but never actually bring it to bear. They bring no piercing word. And thus the entire movement is open to great deception. And instead of REPENTANCE, people are getting all kinds of counterfeit spiritual experiences. There seems to be almost no discernment at all.
The ON-STAGE DANCING throughout this conference was a good example. Now, I myself am a rock musician, but from the beginning these dance items had a rather 'wild' aspect to them that truly made me uncomfortable in my spirit. There was even one that came across like a sensual 'Harem' dance. Much of it really felt "off" - and almost anyone who sees the videos will tell you so. Even the worship had a very "tribal" feel to it at times. And by Day Three they were doing dance items with just loud voodoo-style drums only - and leaping around in a frenzied circle making weird cries to the super-amplified beat. The feeling in the room was so oppressive and "pagan" during this, that I could hardly even bear to stay in there. Then came one of the most shocking statements of the whole conference - from one of the main prophets. He got up and said that people may feel uncomfortable with such obviously "pagan" type dancing, but that it was originally God's type of dancing and we were just now 'stealing back' what the pagans had stolen from God!
I have to admit, this was the last straw for me. What could be more blatant? What kind of 'spirits' do they think are being transmitted to people who open themselves up to that music? There is no discernment in this movement at all.
Now, I do not primarily blame the dancers. They were young and possibly immature. (-They weren't actually from 'Whitedove' itself). Clearly, most of the blame lies with the main prophets who invited them in and openly endorsed and promoted what was happening the whole time. They would get up and publicly acclaim these dance items, thus ensuring that the spirit of it would pervade the entire event. And indeed it did - more and more.
Remember, most of the major "movers and shakers" of the Prophetic movement were at this conference, going along with this stuff. I repeat what I said earlier: This movement demonstrates absolutely NO DISCERNMENT. I urge everyone to GET OUT NOW, before even worse is brought in. I believe this movement is RIGHT NOW being given over to deception by God - and it is going to get much worse.
Even the 'spiritual' moments in this conference often had strong touches of "Charis-mania" excess about them. And this was not the 'harmless, silly' kind of excess, either. It was at a level where I believe demonic spirits of deception were clearly at work. By the last session the audience was so hyped that they threw away all inhibition and leapt into the 'pagan' dancing themselves with wild abandon. And one of the main prophets even got up and announced that there were angels in the room going around "blowing on peoples' fingers" if only they would lift them up in the air. That particular part sounds silly, but actually the whole thing by this stage had become awful beyond words. Virtually every day I came home utterly grieved and depressed. I had come to this conference with great expectancy and hope, thinking that the return of Bob Jones may bring a renewal of all that was originally good about this movement. I literally came as a 'friend' and they turned me into an enemy in the space of three days.
Below are the SPECIFIC THINGS that God told me He has against this movement as a whole:
-The giving and receiving of "ear-tickling" words.
-The giving and receiving of money in expectation of prophecy.
-False words and false teaching.
-The lack of a true Repentance message.
-The spiritual 'blindness' that allows familiar spirits and spirits of divination to flourish.
-The failure of this movement to judge itself, meaning that God must judge it.
-The idolising of well-known prophets - placing them on a pedestal.
-And so on....
WHAT NOW FOR US?
Well, obviously, with great sadness we must now totally cut ourselves off from today's Prophetic Movement. Any related links and articles will be removed from our web-site immediately.
As you know, for some time now I have spoken of the 'John-the- Baptist' type ministries that must arise to preach REPENTANCE in the Western nations. -Preachers of righteousness with a piercing word, like the Finneys, the Wesleys and the Whitefields of old. Such ministries are essential for true Revival to come. I now see that this new move must completely "separate itself" from the influence of the existing Prophetic movement. We need a completely 'NEW' Prophetic, and to keep it from being tainted by the sickness that has infected the old, there must be a complete cutting-off and a "leaving behind".
I urge all of you to take this before the Lord for yourself. We live in very dangerous times, and I believe the old Prophetic literally stands under the judgement of God.
For our ministry in Kansas City, what this means is that we have to go right back to the original calling and mandate over this city, and build on that. We cannot build on the movement that came after. The 21 days of prayer and fasting, the comet that came, and the comission to preach Repentance to the Lukewarm church - these were all foundational elements. So too were the four standards of "Holiness of heart, Unwavering faith, Day and Night prayer, and Extravagant Giving to the Poor". The original Prophetic move here seemed to be relatively pure for only a few years - and then quickly became a quagmire. So we have to stick to only the original foundations - and build on that. Our Sunday night meetings in Kansas City will certainly continue.
There were prophecies last year that a 'new' prophetic - a "second phase" was about to begin. I do believe this. But what we need to make sure of is that it does not become ensnared in the garbage of this previous movement. It must be totally NEW.
I would ask that you forward this announcement to as many Lists as you can, and to your Christian friends. We want it as widely known as possible that we have cut off all relations with the current Prophetic movement - and why we did it.
To email me with any feedback, please write to: prophetic@revivalschool.com
As you can tell, it has been a terribly sad and devastating weekend for myself and my family. We would truly appreciate your prayers at this time, my friends.
God bless you all.
Kindest regards in Christ,
Andrew Strom.
_________________
To comment on this article, please send an email to- prophetic@revivalschool.com
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/6/2004 9:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Spen!
I read this Strom letter intently. I am not invested in the Kansas City Prophet thing in any real way. But...This Strom guy seems to be doing what you say you don't believe. Referring to Dutch Sheets, you argued that he couldn't speak for God. Strom seems to be doing that, right? It doesn't seem apparent that Strom went personally to these men in the following of Matt 18 and now he's telling the world of his opinion of their badness. He may have the facts, I don't know. He doesn't seem to me to have the Spirit backing him, though.
I just think we should engage in doing our part to advance the Kingdom. In the Paul Cain thing I do see Matt 18 followed and I do respect the 3 men of God announcing Cain's problem. Strom though seems to not be peace-making, but harshly critical.
I believe God will take care of those damaging His Kingdom. We seem to be too eager sometimes to point faults out. I read Hannegraf and this seems to be his method. He seems to build his ministry around fault-finding rather than preaching the gospel. I am ALL For GOOD APOLOGETICS and very against cheap HERESY HUNTING. Still I pray for God to have mercy on those trouble-makers...both the hunters and the hunted(who are doing evil).
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/6/2004 12:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Hey Spen!
I read this Strom letter intently. I am not invested in the Kansas City Prophet thing in any real way. But...This Strom guy seems to be doing what you say you don't believe. Referring to Dutch Sheets, you argued that he couldn't speak for God. Strom seems to be doing that, right? It doesn't seem apparent that Strom went personally to these men in the following of Matt 18 and now he's telling the world of his opinion of their badness. He may have the facts, I don't know. He doesn't seem to me to have the Spirit backing him, though.
I just think we should engage in doing our part to advance the Kingdom. In the Paul Cain thing I do see Matt 18 followed and I do respect the 3 men of God announcing Cain's problem. Strom though seems to not be peace-making, but harshly critical.
I believe God will take care of those damaging His Kingdom. We seem to be too eager sometimes to point faults out. I read Hannegraf and this seems to be his method. He seems to build his ministry around fault-finding rather than preaching the gospel. I am ALL For GOOD APOLOGETICS and very against cheap HERESY HUNTING. Still I pray for God to have mercy on those trouble-makers...both the hunters and the hunted(who are doing evil).
Barry
Barry,
You are right when you tell me, "But...This Strom guy seems to be doing what you say you don't believe." This is what I find most concerning and disappointing in his letter. We read his sincere and heartfelt grief at the falseness of what he is witnessing. We feel his pain in leaving what he believes is now corrupted and sick beyond recovery. Yet, as we read on in his letter, we see that he isn't really leaving it at all. It is not just a man or men in the movement that are defective, it is the beliefs of the movement itself that are defective.
Where does scripture tell us that the coming of a comet is foundational for the minstry of Kansas City? We find passages against divination and interpreting omens in scripture. “There shall not be found among you ... one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens." Nowhere are we told to look to a comet as guidance that a foundation is certainly from God. We know that there is no foundation except for Jesus Christ.
The Bob Jones that Andrew refers to when he states, "I had come to this conference with great expectancy and hope, thinking that the return of Bob Jones may bring renewal of all that was originally good about this movement." This Bob Jones is the one who prophesied to women and had them undress so that "they could stand naked before the Lord." He did this while he was a prophet in Wimber's church in CA. He was "restored" by the "apostle" Larry Alberts of Minneapolis a few years ago. His first public appearance after his restoration was at the church my father-in-law founded and I attended in Blaine, MN.
I find it ironic that most people were never even told there was a restoration or even any problems. We certainly never were told that when he came to our church and made strong claims concerning the will of GOd for expansion plans, etc.
I wrote a letter to Andrew this morning and I pray that God will help him to escape the defective beliefs themselves and not just a poor meeting or bad leader. Please pray for him that he and his family can really exscape the corrupt beliefs of the system they are still are part of.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted Yesterday 6:41 PM (GMT -6) | | So who's word do we take? Respected leaders with a proven track record, or a self-proclaimed "prophet" who God spole to contrary to everyone else?
I have never met Andrew Strom, and I am not questioning his integrity or his calling, I am simply making the point that we cannot ever judge Prophets or Prophecy by what others claim God told them. "By their FRUITS..."etc.
Maybe the leaders missed-it? But sledging of leaders publicly is not a Biblical response. interesting that Andrew was the author of an article disagreeing with Rick Joyner's "Civil war in the Church.
Blessing,
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
|
barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted Today 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Hey Spen!
I read this Strom letter intently. I am not invested in the Kansas City Prophet thing in any real way. But...This Strom guy seems to be doing what you say you don't believe. Referring to Dutch Sheets, you argued that he couldn't speak for God. Strom seems to be doing that, right? It doesn't seem apparent that Strom went personally to these men in the following of Matt 18 and now he's telling the world of his opinion of their badness. He may have the facts, I don't know. He doesn't seem to me to have the Spirit backing him, though.
I just think we should engage in doing our part to advance the Kingdom. In the Paul Cain thing I do see Matt 18 followed and I do respect the 3 men of God announcing Cain's problem. Strom though seems to not be peace-making, but harshly critical.
I believe God will take care of those damaging His Kingdom. We seem to be too eager sometimes to point faults out. I read Hannegraf and this seems to be his method. He seems to build his ministry around fault-finding rather than preaching the gospel. I am ALL For GOOD APOLOGETICS and very against cheap HERESY HUNTING. Still I pray for God to have mercy on those trouble-makers...both the hunters and the hunted(who are doing evil).
Barry
Barry,
You are right when you tell me, "But...This Strom guy seems to be doing what you say you don't believe." This is what I find most concerning and disappointing in his letter. We read his sincere and heartfelt grief at the falseness of what he is witnessing. We feel his pain in leaving what he believes is now corrupted and sick beyond recovery. Yet, as we read on in his letter, we see that he isn't really leaving it at all. It is not just a man or men in the movement that are defective, it is the beliefs of the movement itself that are defective.
Where does scripture tell us that the coming of a comet is foundational for the minstry of Kansas City? We find passages against divination and interpreting omens in scripture. “There shall not be found among you ... one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens." Nowhere are we told to look to a comet as guidance that a foundation is certainly from God. We know that there is no foundation except for Jesus Christ.
The Bob Jones that Andrew refers to when he states, "I had come to this conference with great expectancy and hope, thinking that the return of Bob Jones may bring renewal of all that was originally good about this movement." This Bob Jones is the one who prophesied to women and had them undress so that "they could stand naked before the Lord." He did this while he was a prophet in Wimber's church in CA. He was "restored" by the "apostle" Larry Alberts of Minneapolis a few years ago. His first public appearance after his restoration was at the church my father-in-law founded and I attended in Blaine, MN.
I find it ironic that most people were never even told there was a restoration or even any problems. We certainly never were told that when he came to our church and made strong claims concerning the will of GOd for expansion plans, etc.
I wrote a letter to Andrew this morning and I pray that God will help him to escape the defective beliefs themselves and not just a poor meeting or bad leader. Please pray for him that he and his family can really exscape the corrupt beliefs of the system they are still are part of.
Spen,
Touched by your compassion for this Strom guy. Wondering how you view the prophetic? Seems you've been deep in it at some times in your life. Do you renounce the entire gifting and calling of the prophet? Are you more a cessationist than a charismatic? Do you admire the ministry of ANY prominent "prophets"?
Is my belief that God still speaks to whomever He wills with revelations great and marvelous, meant to be published abroad, a bad belief? I am not saying God changes revelation...I am saying He is continually speaking and communing with a fervent church. He still directs, guides, corrects, and encourages. This is my experience and I want more and more. This seemed to be Finney's and Wesley's experience and those in that flow seem rarer and rarer. I too have seen and heard and been fooled by many flowing through the charismatic movement...to the point I don't go around calling myself one. But I do think it was a true move of God...it just was overtaken as most moves are by men and institutionalized. Do you disavow the bulk of the charismatic move?
If you are against all this, I still want to be in fellowship and hear the rest of your story!
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted Today 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Barry:Touched by your compassion for this Strom guy. Wondering how you view the prophetic? Seems you've been deep in it at some times in your life.
Spen: I spent most of my life embracing the beliefs of the movement from some 30+ years.
Barry: Do you renounce the entire gifting and calling of the prophet?
Spen: I separate "prophecy" from "the office of prophet" and I find that we have men identified as prophets in the New Testament. Because I don't find a passage terminating this office, I believe that the possibility of someone holding it continues to exist - I believe in prophets. I don't believe in the watering down and elimination of the qualifications of prophets defined in Deuteronomy. Agabus never once is recorded to have given a prophecy that failed to came to pass. The modern prophets such as Cain, Joyner, Jones, and their whole stream claim that modern prophets cannot be held to this same biblical standard. I think that their scriptural claims regarding this are weak and fail to differentiate between prophecy and the office of prophet.
Barry: Are you more a cessationist than a charismatic? Do you admire the ministry of ANY prominent "prophets"?
Spen: I am not a cessationist, I am cautious and a believe in standards-based discernment based upon strict interpretation compared to scriptures. I read in Revelation 11 of 2 coming specifc prophets that are given authority to prophecy to the nations. These specific 2 witnesses are identifiable based upon several criteria, one of which is being resurrected after 3.5 days. Branham claimed to be one of these - he was wrong and false, you can visit his tomb. If there are 2 that are coming for sure, perhaps there are others, but they must meet the criteria in Deut. I am not aware of any of the "modern prophets" that I would endorse as it seems to me that all that I know have failed the tests in Deuteronomy. I have heard what I believe to be prophecies that may have been from God, but this is different and those that gave them didn't claim the office of prophet.
Barry: Is my belief that God still speaks to whomever He wills with revelations great and marvelous, meant to be published abroad, a bad belief? I am not saying God changes revelation...I am saying He is continually speaking and communing with a fervent church.
Spen: I agree with you that God can and does speak and give revelations to whomever He will in whatever way He desires. Those that receive these revelations are not necessarily prophets, let alone believers. Caiaphas and Balaam were both evil men that had revelations. An example of what I think you mean would be Nebuchadnezzar. He had revelations but was he a prophet? I know that regarding His church God has already given the most fervent loving passionate and clear message of all - His Son who was a man and gave us His words and demonstrated His passionate love by dying for us. We already have all that is necessary for life and Godliness. Does God continue to give impressions, dreams, etc. I believe the answer is "yes." Can one claim that they are CERTAINLY God if they are not explicitly confirmed in scriptures? I belive the answer is - No.
Barry: He still directs, guides, corrects, and encourages. This is my experience and I want more and more. This seemed to be Finney's and Wesley's experience and those in that flow seem rarer and rarer. I too have seen and heard and been fooled by many flowing through the charismatic movement...to the point I don't go around calling myself one. But I do think it was a true move of God...it just was overtaken as most moves are by men and institutionalized. Do you disavow the bulk of the charismatic move?
Spen: God has one move and one message of salvation - the gospel. I disavow the concept of "progressive restoration" of some lost truths or secrets to the church so that, once we find them all, we will find the supernatural power and authority to replicate the exploits of the church in Acts. To the extent that the Charismatic movement believed and propmoted defective beliefs and discouraged the authority of scrriptures, I believe that it was amiss. To the extent that the gospel of Christ and his salvation offered freely through His blood to solve our problem of sin - I rejoice in it and any other movement.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted Today 9:20 AM (GMT -6) | | WhiteDove's Response to AS:
Report of Open Heaven Conference in Kansas City, Mo: November 8, 2004
Greetings Friends,
Wanda and I were required to leave straightaway following the conference in Kansas City for another conference in Anchorage, AK. We are just now returning this morning. For the last several days I have looked forward to formulating a report of our conference and hope that it will be beneficial.
To do so accurately we must return to the beginning of 2004 when the Lord first commissioned us to host this conference. We have co-hosted numerous events over the last few years. However, I must admit, I was somewhat surprised at the time that Kansas City was the city chosen for our first fully sponsored conference under the WhiteDove Ministries banner.
There are several very notable ministries and leaders in Kansas City for whom we have the highest regard. Shawn Bolz has been a co-laborer with us for the past two years. He has labored for many years and sown spiritual seeds in Kansas City with some of these ministries. Even so, I was somewhat dismayed at the Lord's choice. However, I quickly saw the wisdom of Heaven in it as the mandate began to be revealed. Kansas City is a city of destiny in the heart of our nation. We are entering a season of awakening for the revelation of divine purposes for our nation and within key cities.
As far back as the spring of 2004, the Holy Spirit outlined the fundamental commission for this conference and its spiritual directives. These mandates were communicated to us in clear and concise ways and affirmed through revelations given to Bob Jones and Bobby Conner. These are men the Lord has placed in our lives for many years with insight and authority to speak into us.
Naturally, we could not have anticipated at that time the many things that would transpire in the Church during the following months. It was clear from the beginning that this conference was not intended to be a reconciliation of former relationships nor was it intended to address conditions and failures prevalent among leaders. Perhaps others will be called to have conferences or meetings for that purpose.
Instead, our directive was to do our best to create an atmosphere for people to encounter the Lord and also address issues of the soul that have kept us from divine destiny. The Lord expressed His desire to release a revelatory realm that allows people to obtain a vision of destiny and the "hope of our calling" that dispels hopelessness.
Jacob had such an experience in Genesis 28 and it impacted the remainder of his life. The Heavens opened and he was told of his destiny and that of his descendants. He discovered the Lord's presence and the host of Heaven assigned to co-labor with man. Eventually, his nature was changed and he entered the destiny revealed in this experience.
We were challenged by the Holy Spirit to remain faithful to that mandate despite the very strong urging that we received from many people to publicly address critical issues and bring a public reconciliation to relationships that we believe have already been reconciled. We were told by the Lord to look forward, not to the past.
I believe the Holy Spirit helped us achieve that purpose. We have received hundreds of responses from participants who have testified of their encounters with the Lord and the hope that now permeates their hearts for their destiny and the importance of this generation. They are laying aside the encumbrances and entanglements that have hindered them in the past and moving on to the high calling.
Clearly, there are many areas that we recognize that could be improved in future conferences. Nevertheless, we were very pleased with the overall outcome of the conference. We plainly saw the need for improvement in some areas like the registration processes. We are a relatively small ministry and had to rely heavily upon a handful of people to administer over 2000 registrants. That was a monumental task. However, the favor of the Lord helped us through the rough areas. We were greatly encouraged by the patience and kindness of the participants.
If there is one word that I believe will help us make future conferences better it would be "balance." Leadership in the Church is being challenged to be relevant in a unique time in history. This generation is unlike any other. There is something distinguishing and special that is woven into the spiritual DNA of this young generation.
Therefore, we are confronted with the issue of being relevant but without compromise; that is a sensitive task that we must address. This young generation is spiritually hungry. To address the needs of this hour requires a message of spiritual relevance to those needs but without compromising integrity, humility and Christ-like character.
Our conference incorporated numerous dances that were intended to convey prophetic messages of warfare and deliverance. King David was a worshipping warrior who modeled this attribute. I was incredibly proud of our young team of worshipers. Each member of the dance and worship team is established in purity and loves the Lord with all of their hearts. They were not there to perform, but to minister.
The dances were intended to be militant but also modest. Certainly, we will continue to adjust the balance between these clear directives. We desire to be relevant but without compromise...militant while at the same time modest. This can and must be achieved.
The fundamental mandate of our ministry is intimacy and friendship with the Lord. We ardently pursue the reality of 2 Peter 1:4; to become partakers of the divine nature and escape the corruption of this world and its lusts. We pray for that reality to be conveyed in everything we do.
The Message of the Kingdom
We have received many requests for a response to the report written by a brother by the name of Andrew Strom. As a rule, I generally do not write defenses of our ministry or engage in debates. However, I do believe we can openly defend truth as it relates to our biblical heritage. Furthermore, I also analyze criticisms, even when they are presented in frustration, in hopes of finding some area that can make us better. We always want to have a teachable spirit.
Wanda, Shawn and I are very grateful to Bobby Conner, Bob Jones and John Paul Jackson who brought anointed messages of truth and significance. I genuinely regret that Mr. Strom became so angry at our conference and those messages. It was our hope and prayer that all in attendance be blessed and receive something significant from the Lord. However, we must also be realistic and recognize that rarely are everyone's expectations met.
One of the distinctions of the conference was the unity among the ministry team. At the outset, we acknowledged the genuine fraternal affection among each leader and hoped that a spirit of harmony would prevail throughout the conference. That is the ultimate ministry of reconciliation. By this will the world know that we are His disciples, when they discover us loving one another.
I was totally unfamiliar with Mr. Strom prior to our conference. I met him only briefly just as our opening session was about to begin. We had set aside an area in the back of the building to be used exclusively as a refuge for the speakers to debrief before and after sessions. While in this room, as we were preparing to leave to open the conference, I noticed someone speaking with Bob Jones that I did not know. As I approached them, Mr. Strom introduced himself and handed me a piece of paper that contained his prophetic perspective for the conference.
I was only able to read it after the conference. We certainly share this brother's heart to see repentance come to our nation and the Lord's people so that times of refreshing can come from God's presence. I just think we approach it from a different perspective.
That is the only contact that I have had with this brother. I wish he had come to me to discuss his grievances directly; I believe that would have been more appropriate and beneficial. I believe a spirit of unity could have prevailed. If anything was done to Mr. Strom that was offensive, it certainly was not intentional.
Nonetheless, I also believe this circumstance can be used as a tool for advancement in the Kingdom. Initially, I had intended to write a brief summation of the messages from our speakers. However, in light of recent events, I believe it would be incredibly fruitful if people heard them for themselves and draw their own conclusions.
Consequently, we will make the 10 CD series available at a reduced rate. We also encourage those who already have the CD's to duplicate them and share them freely with others. (Please do not sell them) Anyone desiring the CD messages can order from our websitehttp://www.whitedoveministries.org/content/ShopProduct.phtml?1/0/213. Furthermore, we are looking into having the opening session placed on our website in an audio file to be accessed freely. It should be up and running next week.
I believe the body of Christ will have discernment to hear for themselves. I also believe there will be an impartation through the recorded messages that was present in the conference.
It would be most profitable to listen to the sessions in the order that they occurred. At the outset of the conference we acknowledged that this was intended to be a consolidated journey between those who were speaking and those in attendance. Each session built upon another with preparation and expectation for a breakthrough to launch the revelation of individual and corporate destiny. I believe the Lord let us achieve that, especially the last evening.
Very specific strongholds were identified in the opening sessions requiring contrition and open acknowledgment on our part for there to be genuine impartation. Bitterness, anger, and self-pity were only a few of the issues identified that needed to be dealt with at the Cross before we could advance into seasons of revelation and spiritual release.
We also had an incredible opportunity to receive an impartation from our friends from Argentina, Claudio and Betty Friedzon. They participated with us throughout most of Friday and released the anointing upon the attendees that has helped them grow their church to over 20,000 people in Buenos Aires.
It was as though the Lord cultivated soil for a season and then sowed spiritual seed. There followed additional sessions of cultivation and extraction of soulish issues with another impartation the last evening.
The Spirit of Contrition
Clearly, we are very desirous to see the spirit of repentance sweeping the western church. However, true repentance comes from conviction not condemnation. In the gospel of John, we are told that the Spirit of Truth, when He is present, will bring the conviction of sin. Without question we are in desperate need of that manifested presence.
We have prayed earnestly throughout this year for the release of the same Spirit that fell upon Evan Roberts launching the Welsh revival one hundred years ago this year. We cannot muster from the realm of the soul the Godly granted repentance that is needed. It must come by divine visitation upon the hearts of men and women.
The apostle Paul once admonished his spiritual son Timothy to exercise gentleness when bringing correction, if perhaps God may grant repentance. He wrote to Timothy and to us saying,
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:24-26
Every leader with whom we are in relationship recognizes this great need in the western church. Our written and spoken messages are built around this reality. Even so, as we have traveled the nation we have discovered an epidemic of hopelessness in the western church that the Lord intends to reverse. Spiritual vision from the revelatory realm of Heaven provides hope derived by a revelation of our calling and destiny; hope dispels hopelessness. That is the promise of Ephesians 1:17-18.
It is not difficult to discern our present condition. Nevertheless, I personally desire to be a loyal servant like the ones who ventured into the land of promise and returned with a faithful report in the days of Moses. Yes, there are giants in the land; but God is able to empower us to overcome. To turn our backs on any aspect of our heritage and to encourage others to do likewise would be ill-advised.
I have never looked at our ministry as part of a "prophetic movement" but a part of the Kingdom of God. Our revelatory heritage is only one aspect of the progressive revelation of the Kingdom message; but a very important one.
The prophet Ezekiel was taken to a valley of dry bones. He was not instructed to condemn them but to prophesy life to them. That is our hope and expectation. We desire to breathe life into dry bones and begin to see them take shape and form. That was the highest expectation of our conference. I believe, with the Lord's help, we accomplished that.
Though the western church may look like a valley of dry bones, I believe the Lord sees it prophetically as an exceedingly great army. We are convinced our nation and the western church has an incredible destiny yet to be fulfilled. When people are given a glimpse of their individual role in that destiny, it transforms them and sets them on the course to repentance and the impartation of the Christ-like nature. They see the cause of God and are forever changed. We are seeing that happen now.
Strongholds of hopelessness, despair, depression and other oppressive mind-sets will be overcome when life is breathed into this army. According to Ezekiel 37:10-12,
So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, "Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' "Therefore prophesy and say to them, "Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
In a revelatory experience on the last day of the conference, Bob Jones was told another conference will be necessary to press this mandate through to its fullness. Therefore, it is with great expectations that we look forward to 2005 and the unfolding of God's strategy for this season of the Spirit. We have abundant hope and expectation although we have many obstacles to overcome.
Blessings of grace and favor,
Paul Keith Davis
| | Back to Top | | |
|
pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted Today 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Quote: Are you suggesting that we take the word of Rick Joyner as the "respected leader with a proven track record?" In another post we find that he apologizes for not having enough discernment to see what he calls "abundant and obvious" sings that his mentor, Paul Cain, was an alchoholic and a practicing homosexual. Paul Cain was another of your respected leaders with a proven track record. Interesting that Rick Joyner, who claims supernatural powers of spiritual insight couldn't even "discern" that the father of their movement was a homosexual and that even then, they didn't immediately remove him from leadership. Joyner still claims that Cain's being a practicing homosexual in no way should negate or diminish his ministry conducted during this time.
The only "fruits" that you consider valid to judge are whether a person has spiritual powers or not. Only tht charlatans are called false, those who are homosexuals claiming to certainly speak for God are simply called "wounded." Look farther and dig deeper and find the true foundation of the gospel instead of all this silly charade.
Spen,
You seem to have a lot of anger and very little compassion or understanding. You throw out AS's frustrated sledging of a recent conference as some sort of Evidence that the Prophetic has lost track.
Fruit: Thousands blessed by the ministry of the Holy Spirit through PC, RJ and others over the last 10 years. Specific words given to people who recognise that it was God's word to them.
This is a proven track record.
I first heard of Andrew Strom on his own website challenging Revelation from Rick Joyner, who has a proven track record, though is not yet perfect. I have never yet heard anything from Andrew that I feel the Holy Spirit witnesses to, yet have always had concerns about his critical spirit towards those to whom the Lord has given a mantle of leadership.
You need some balance. God is still on His throne. He has his hand covering all of us, even in our secret sins.
Discernment is one of the weakest gifts operating in the Body today. You need to be careful of expecting Joyner to have discerned PC's sin when you didn't, and noone else did. Just because someone is a Prophetic leader with widespread recognition doesn't mean thay have the whole picture, and can discern all sin.
Blessings,
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted Today 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul: Specific words given to people who recognise that it was God's word to them.
This is a proven track record.
Spen: I maintain that this is a defective standard of measure to call it a "proven track record." This concept and statement reflect why this movement is so weak, it is essentially self-referential. People's recognition means nothing in terms of a biblically proven track record. Israel loved and approved of the false prophets and stoned the real ones. Apostate Israel endorsed the message and minstry of the false prophets and this still did not make them "true." Apostate movements do the same.
Jeremiah 5 speaks to this very concept:
An appalling and horrible thing
Has happened in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love it so!
But what will you do at the end of it?
These men claim God's authority for their own words and revelations. Scriptures, and the objective discernment found there, are obscured because these scriptures are now interpreted according to the revelations and internal impressions of the prophets themselves. Thus, the internal impressions of the prophets are the authority, not the scriptures, and the people love it so - in this we both agree.
By what authority can Bob Jones state that another of his conferences must happen before the gospel can overcome strongholds of hopelessness, despair, depression and other oppressive mind-sets. I defy any man that claims that the gospel's power over sin is such that it cannot fulfill its mandate until he holds another conference. Bunk! The power of the gospel to overcome sin and set even people in this movement and in Kansas City free from hopelessness, despair, depression and oppression is as real now as it was in the first century and is in no way dependent upon the conferences of Prophet Bob Jones and his peers.
quote:
Strongholds of hopelessness, despair, depression and other oppressive mind-sets will be overcome when life is breathed into this army. According to Ezekiel 37:10-12,
"So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, "Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' "Therefore prophesy and say to them, "Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel."
In a revelatory experience on the last day of the conference, Bob Jones was told another conference will be necessary to press this mandate through to its fullness
I remain distressed and troubled for all those people, well meaning people with a hunger for God, who are being led astray after men claiming God has revealed to them that there must be additional conferences before the gospel can be effective. This is an attack on the gospel and the words of the true apostles found there. This is a defective and abusive teaching, regardless of the motive of the prophets. We can say with certainty that this concept is false, the "revelation " was false and this claim of holding some kind of "prophetic office" is as false for Bob Jones as it was for Paul Cain.
You are certainly well meaning and doing your best to defend what you believe to be the "truth" and "the authority of God" to address the needs of a sinful world. God bless you, I applaud your zeal and willingness to defend what you believe to be good and true. I simply believe that you are wrong and pray that God will give you the grace to examine what you are following in light of the scriptures. May God give you eyes to see and ears to hear...and me too.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted Today 11:52 PM (GMT -6) | | objective discernment?????
Whose objective discernment? There is no such thing as an unbiased person - we all have biases towards particular points of view.
Paul Cain has always maintained that he doesn't deserve the label "Prophet" in the Office sense (many would agree at this time) - others have given him that title. Similarly, John Paul Jackson prefers the term Prophetic Minister, because he recognises the differences between the standard of revelation at this time and that recorded in Scripture, AND has "seen" something of what the Lord has in store.
Bob Jones has given specific words about signs and events that have come to pass. So has Paul Cain. There have also been occasions when they prophesied events that others believed would happen immediately, and then claimed false, which actually occurred several years down the track. Sometimes they actually beleived that it was sooner.
My point is that not all your info is correct, and your point about not yet being at the level we see in Elijah and Elisha is taken and agreed with. I don't believe this negates all benefit from the Prophetic movement.
Blessings,
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/9/2004 1:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
objective discernment?????
Whose objective discernment? There is no such thing as an unbiased person - we all have biases towards particular points of view.
Paul Cain has always maintained that he doesn't deserve the label "Prophet" in the Office sense (many would agree at this time) - others have given him that title. Similarly, John Paul Jackson prefers the term Prophetic Minister, because he recognises the differences between the standard of revelation at this time and that recorded in Scripture, AND has "seen" something of what the Lord has in store.
Bob Jones has given specific words about signs and events that have come to pass. So has Paul Cain. There have also been occasions when they prophesied events that others believed would happen immediately, and then claimed false, which actually occurred several years down the track. Sometimes they actually beleived that it was sooner.
My point is that not all your info is correct, and your point about not yet being at the level we see in Elijah and Elisha is taken and agreed with. I don't believe this negates all benefit from the Prophetic movement.
Blessings,
Paul D
Paul,
You state, "Whose objective discernment? There is no such thing as an unbiased person - we all have biases towards particular points of view." This is true. We are falible but the Word of God is not. We may have defective interpretations, but it remains infalible. While we all interpret the Bible, this does not allow mean that we all have our own truth. There are interpretations that are stronger and weaker and there are interpretations that are simply "wrong." Everybody's interpretations are not equal. Much of the discussion on this board brings this into focus. I believe that the discernment based upon the objective Word of God (even if we are falible) is much stronger than the impression-based discernment or even the feeling-based interpretation that I observe as the basis of many beliefs supporting the "prophetic movement." A simple reading of the document of Keith Davis and Bob Jones brings this into focus. Bob Jones reads Ezekiel and by revelation sees that it is meaning that Kansas City needs another conference to fulfill God's mandate. Sorry, seems a little weak around the edges for me to consider it as the true interpretation of the passage.
Bob Jones prophecied that there was going to be an earthquake in the central US at a specified time. He was wrong. Even those in the movement acknowledged that he was wrong and attempted to bring correction as you can see in the URL below. Our pastor spoke of this word from the pulpit, encouraging us to listen to the prophets.
I am one who has earthquake insurance on my home (it was cheap because we don't have earthquakes very often) and we didn't have one when he claimed we would. Thus, according to Deut. 18 he has spoken presumptuously as a false prophet and we are not to be afraid of what he asys or listen to him. I can state with all the authority of the Word of God that the gospel's power to address sins in Kansas City is not dependent on anything this man says nor on any conference.
Your posts and claims supporting the words of these men in the face of clear scriptures is evidence of the issues that are defective in this movement. These men are not prophets, practicing homosexuals are not the "prophetic voice of God." This doesn't mean they are precluded from speaking anything true. Even the devil quotes scriptures. How do we think that false prophets will come to be respected if they don't assume "sheep's clothing?" I am grateful to you for your posts. Thank you.
Earthquake prophecy
http://www.harvestnet.org/lookback/godmanDec97.htm
Deut 18
‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ “You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/9/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Again, perspective!!!!
Rick and others freely admit that if Bob "misses it" its concerning timing. This is probably the most common error in the prophetic at this time. Prophtic Vision is like binoculars without the benefit of a magnification number - it looks closer than it is.
Many took the Earthquake prophecy as soon. Experience with Bob's words since the '80's, where he himself admits God told him July, and he beleived it was the next July until the event actually happened 4 years later.
Much has been written already debunking the "Oh they got this little part wrong therefore must be a flase prophet" idea. Its a simplistic reading of one text, and ignores other texts. The Jews themselves never took it in that way. Their take is that a false prophet is onewho seeks to draw people away from the Lord. This cannot be made to stick against Joyner et al.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:05 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|