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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/11/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | Albert-
God is the "aionon" God, is not refering to His existence. He is the God of the eons; the eonian God. He has skillfully laid out the eons with perfection and thus deserves the recognition.
quote:
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting (aionion). Amen."
If aionion punishment ends, then so does God's aionion honour and power end.
The passage declares God to have honor and dominion and power throughout the eons. Agian this does not take away from the honor, power, and dominion He will have when the eons come to an end.
How can the same word mean an indefinite duration that has a beginning and an end also mean endless time? It is illogical! The Greek experts you cite are willing to be illogical in order to keep within their presuppositions concerning the scriptures instead of keeping with the most consistent rendering possible for aion, aionion, and aionios!
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/11/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Albert Einstein
2 Corinthians 4:18
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Paul contrasts the things that are temporal (proskairos, literally 'for a season,') with the things that are eternal (they won't end).
What word does Paul use for "eternal"? aionios
quote:
aion 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Paul contrasts "for a season" with "eternal".
Using "for a season" with "for a season" wouldn't contrast the things which are seen from the things which are not seen. 
quote:
It is often claimed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18, “eonian” (aiõnion) must mean “eternal” because it is set in contrast to the word “temporal,” meaning pertaining to time as opposed to eternity. The Greek word, however, translated “temporal” in the AV (proskaira) has no connection with the word for “time” (chronos); in English form, the Greek is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means “temporary” or “for [only] a part of a season.”
Contrastive terms need not be antithetical in meaning. Our Lord deemed it sufficient contrast to compare temporary (i.e., a part of a season) with a single season–less than a year (Matt.13:21). Yet here, in 2 Corinthians 4:18, while the contrast is far greater, it does not follow that it is therefore infinite. The contrast is between our afflictions, which last, so to say, but for a brief “partial season,” and our promised, long-enduring “eonian” glory which lasts throughout the oncoming eons, until the consummation, when God is All in all. The eonian life and glory which is our special portion (cp 1 Tim.4:10b; 2 Tim.2:10,11), no more debars the endless life and glory in which we shall participate as well (cp Luke 1:33b; 1 Thess.4:17b; 1 Cor.15:28), than youthful happiness precludes the happiness of maturity. Hence, in considering the “eonian” punishment of Matthew 25:46, none who are wise will make the claim that since we will be immortal, therefore the eonian life of which this passage speaks is to be understood as “life eternal,” and, in turn, the eonian punishment which this passage entails is to be judged to be “everlasting.”
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Albert Einstein
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Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/11/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
It is often claimed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18, “eonian” (aiõnion) must mean “eternal” because it is set in contrast to the word “temporal,” meaning pertaining to time as opposed to eternity. The Greek word, however, translated “temporal” in the AV (proskaira) has no connection with the word for “time” (chronos); in English form, the Greek is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means “temporary” or “for [only] a part of a season.”
"temporary" and "part of a season" and "a season" are ALL shorter than "eternal" and thus ALL contrast with "eternal".
Do you read this stuff before you quote it?
It doesn't matter the duration proskaira means, they're ALL shorter than aionios.
It doesn't matter how you tinker with one side of these parallels, nations burning forever or individuals burning forever, the two sides of the parallel are the same word(s).
If punishment and God's glory and honor and dominion and life are eis tous aionas ton aionon, then either
punishment and God's glory and honor and dominion and life will end or
punishment and God's glory and honor and dominion and life will NEVER end.
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/12/2004 3:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Albert-
How is immortal, uncorruptible life temporary?
I was once where you are, hanging on to my presuppositions and the vain traditions of men so prevelent in today's christianity. I am still unlearning much of what I was taught so that I can see the glorious truth in God's word, which is hidden behind the mistranslations due to translator's theology. I have presented the information and the contradictions caused by mistranslating aion to (for)ever and aionion and aionios into "everlasting" or "eternal". It is illogical to believe that the same word can mean endless time and a duration of time which distinctly has a beginning and an end. I prefer the more logical and consistent rendering of eon for aion and eonian for aionion and aionios. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, SERIOUSLY WEIGH BOTH SIDES WITH AN UNBIASED EYE, LEAVING YOUR PRESUPPOSITIONS BEHIND AND LOOK AT ALL REFERENCES AND DECIDE WHAT CONSISTENTLY AND LOGICALLY MEETS EACH AND EVERY PASSAGE WHICH HAS AION, AIONION, AND AIONIOS.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/12/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Albert-
How is immortal, uncorruptible life temporary?
I was once where you are, hanging on to my presuppositions and the vain traditions of men so prevelent in today's christianity. I am still unlearning much of what I was taught so that I can see the glorious truth in God's word, which is hidden behind the mistranslations due to translator's theology. I have presented the information and the contradictions caused by mistranslating aion to (for)ever and aionion and aionios into "everlasting" or "eternal". It is illogical to believe that the same word can mean endless time and a duration of time which distinctly has a beginning and an end. I prefer the more logical and consistent rendering of eon for aion and eonian for aionion and aionios. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, SERIOUSLY WEIGH BOTH SIDES WITH AN UNBIASED EYE, LEAVING YOUR PRESUPPOSITIONS BEHIND AND LOOK AT ALL REFERENCES AND DECIDE WHAT CONSISTENTLY AND LOGICALLY MEETS EACH AND EVERY PASSAGE WHICH HAS AION, AIONION, AND AIONIOS.
It seems to me Lock that you have left your area of expertise and are claiming, somehow, in the above post that you are a Greek scholar with sufficient scholarly evidence to declare the meaning of a Greek word different or more certain than all the scholars that have gone before you. I don't believe that this is "strong." I look at the evidence for your claims regarding the Greek and compare them to the claims of respected scholars regarding the same word - and I determine that your view is weaker.
What I find most troubling is that your "interpretation" seems to be based upon your "revelation" as to the meaning of the word or your "feeling" as to what it means instead of the intent of the author as established by the text itself. I am not a Greek scholar but I would listen to an honest and respected atheist regarding what a certain Greek word meant based upon his understanding and studies before I would believe your revelatory interpretation. I believe that he can tell me what the text/author is claiming, though he may not believe a word of it himself for his own salvation. I would take his scholarly insights and claims over your "revelation" as a stronger position regarding the what is the actual message of the Word of God.
Spen Lake
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Albert Einstein
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Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/12/2004 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Albert-
How is immortal, uncorruptible life temporary?
I was once where you are, hanging on to my presuppositions and the vain traditions of men so prevelent in today's christianity. I am still unlearning much of what I was taught so that I can see the glorious truth in God's word, which is hidden behind the mistranslations due to translator's theology. I have presented the information and the contradictions caused by mistranslating aion to (for)ever and aionion and aionios into "everlasting" or "eternal". It is illogical to believe that the same word can mean endless time and a duration of time which distinctly has a beginning and an end. I prefer the more logical and consistent rendering of eon for aion and eonian for aionion and aionios. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, SERIOUSLY WEIGH BOTH SIDES WITH AN UNBIASED EYE, LEAVING YOUR PRESUPPOSITIONS BEHIND AND LOOK AT ALL REFERENCES AND DECIDE WHAT CONSISTENTLY AND LOGICALLY MEETS EACH AND EVERY PASSAGE WHICH HAS AION, AIONION, AND AIONIOS.
Thanks for the advice but I parse words according to their context and looking at the context of parallelism, your thesis falls apart.
My advice to you is to learn another language, preferably one of non-latin roots. This will help shake you out of many of your pre-suppositions and western mindset, plus refresh your memory about language rules (which you frequently break).
じゃ また あと で
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Albert Einstein
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/12/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I first read of aion not meaning (for)ever in William Bullinger's Companion Bible which is the King James Authorized Version. Bullinger based much of his research about aion on Robert Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's. I understood the true meaning aion and aionion and aionios well before I came even close to embracing universal reconciliation. I have suggested for you to look with an unbiased eye, seeking only the truth, not theology.
You still don't get it.
If aionion doesn't mean "endless", then when used in parallel, it shows God isn't "endless", His dominion isn't "endless", His glory isn't "endless", His life isn't "endless", our life in Christ isn't "endless".
If aionion means "through the ages", then non-believers are punished "through the ages" which means THE SAME THING, "endlessly".
You can't tweak one side of a parallel without it affecting the other side of the parallel. Parallels have, on each side, a term that is the same on both sides and different terms that are modified by those terms.
black cat parallels white cat
but
black cat doesn't parallel white doorknob
Endless punishment parallels endless life
but
Temporary punishment doesn't parallel endless life
Bullinger does not impress me at all. He lists singular words as figures of speech and I find no one else using that construction. Common knowlege of language shows that figures of speech modify <something> and don't stand alone. That's why people list "like" and "as" as common signposts of figures of speech.
"slick as ice" is a figure of speech, "slick" is not a figure of speech
"as a hen gathers her chicks" is a figure of speech, "now I know" is not a figure of speech
Now if you have as many people listing singular words as figures of speech as there are Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek translators of the non-unique versions of scripture, I might put some stock in it.
When I compare Bullinger's "figures of speech" with numerous other lists of "figures of speech", the disjunct set lines up exactly with his calvinistic presuppositions, LOL.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/16/2004 1:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Spen and Albert-
I think you are missing the point behind a "literal" translation. Young, Rotherham, and the Concordant translators strived to translate the scriptures strictly according to the original manuscripts. They strove to translate without the restriction of pre-suppositions. Did you know that parts of the KJV was not even translated from original transcripts, but only the Vulgate? Before you chose a translation, you should check how closly it lines up with the original words used by the original writers. Many of the new translations do not translate, but interpret the scriptures.
Lock,
You are welcome to read and beleive anybody's translation you want to. Based upon the arguments you have put forth here, the translation you are using seems "weak" in the areas being discussed. I believe, based upon your posts, that the translation you are using interprets and puts meanings in the text that the author didn't intend.
It appears that you have your heart set on believing what you already believe and are satisfied with it, so perhaps it is better to leave this discussion.
Spen Lake
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/16/2004 3:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen: "...so perhaps it is better to leave this discussion."
CVM has a 'bouncer' now? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/16/2004 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It appears that you have your heart set on believing what you already believe and are satisfied with it, so perhaps it is better to leave this discussion.
Spen-
I have looked at both renderings and believe that eon is more logical than (for)ever. By rendering aion and olam (for)ever in scripture creates contradictions. I have been on athiest websites which exploit these contradictions due to translations based on theology, not scholarship. As I posted earlier, I did not always believe this, but have come to this conclusion through study. If you were to present evidence which I have not yet encountered which would prove that (for)ever is the correct rendering, then I would be open to studying it further, but you and Albert have yet to do that. I am not here to convince you either, only to present it for you and others to study on their own and make their own decision.
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Albert Einstein
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/16/2004 4:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
lock yammers on:
If you were to present evidence which I have not yet encountered which would prove that (for)ever is the correct rendering, then I would be open to studying it further, but you and Albert have yet to do that.
We did, numerous times.
If aionion doesn't mean "endless", then when used in parallel, it shows God isn't "endless", His dominion isn't "endless", His glory isn't "endless", His life isn't "endless", our life in Christ isn't "endless".
If aionion means "through the ages", then non-believers are punished "through the ages" which means THE SAME THING, "endlessly".
We've shown plenty of parallels that prove "aionion" means "eternal" else you have a temporary God.
The fact that you have to quote a version of scripture that differs from the dozens of other translations (translated by real Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek scholars) shows the cultish nature of your wacky theory.
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Albert Einstein
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Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/16/2004 4:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Just as the bad guys will burn eis tous aionas ton aionon
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night eis tous aionas ton aionon," (Rev. 20:10)
So too will God be honor and glory and dominion eis tous aionas ton aionon
Phil. 4:20, 1 Tim. 1:17, 2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 13:21, 1 Peter 4:11, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 7:12, Rev. 11:15, Rev. 22:5
So too will the Lamb live eis tous aionas ton aionon
Rev. 1:18, Rev. 4:9, Rev. 4:10, Rev. 10:6, Rev. 15:7
Another brutal parallel given in Matthew 25:46
"And will go off these into punishment eternal (aionion) the but right ones into life eternal (aionion)"
Mark 3:
28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;"
29 "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
Note:
1. "all sins" will be forgiven BUT ONE (1), the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit
BUT contrasts with "will be", in other words, sins will be forgiven BUT this one will NOT be forgiven. EVER
2. Coupled with the BUT is NEVER. The Greek for this "never" is literally "NOT".
So "all sins will be forgiven" BUT one (1), NOT EVER this blasphemy.
Matthew strengthens this:
Matthew 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
Note, Jesus mentions two ages, this one and the one to come, that's it! No third or fourth age....
This age -- before you die, the other age -- from your death to eternity (and a day).
More parallels of aionion regarding eternal life
John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
And eternal damnation
Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It's not their eisegesis of Greek that hurts the amateur Greek dictionary browser, it's the brutal efficiency of the parallelism of the SAME words to describe eternal life and eternal damnation.
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting (aionion). Amen."
If aionion punishment ends, then so does God's aionion honour and power end.
2 Corinthians 4:18
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Paul contrasts the things that are temporal (proskairos, literally 'for a season,') with the things that are eternal (they won't end).
What word does Paul use for "eternal"? aionios
quote:
aion 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Paul contrasts "for a season" with "eternal".
Using "for a season" with "for a season" wouldn't contrast the things which are seen from the things which are not seen.
Titus 1:1 "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2 in the hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"
Now if we already have temporary life, why would we hope for temporary life?
Because aionios means "eternal, endless". That makes sense. We already have temporary life but we hope for eternal (aionos) life.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/16/2004 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi guys-
When I read a universalist like Tom Talbott, I don't get the feeling that HE is doing pure "scholarship" (Lock's term) divorced from emotion or theological commitments whereas proponets of eternal conscious torment are first commmitted to theology. Quite the contrary. I find in fact that there's a non-scholarly "emotional" appeal to universalism; How can this be? Who WANTS the wicked to burn forever? Is it REALLY just? Etc.
Now, I personally don't think such intutions should be tossed aside. Let's listen to them. But so far Albert's point about parallel usage is pretty convincing.
.........
Rats. I had a REALLY good point to make, but one of the eleven kids I'm staying with at this house just walked in, talked to me about Pirates of the Carribean, and left. When I came back to my computer screen I completely lost my train of thought. Stinkin kids!
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