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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/16/2004 5:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/16/2004 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | How long does your Redemption, your inheritance last?
How long will the Spirit exist?
Hebrews 9:
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal (aionios) redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aionios) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal (aionios) inheritance.
Jesus' Redemption lasts a week and a half?
Our inheritance runs out next month?
The Spirit won't be around next January?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/16/2004 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Now, I personally don't think such intutions should be tossed aside. Let's listen to them. But so far Albert's point about parallel usage is pretty convincing.
Tom-
The parallel is not lost by correctly rendering aionion and aionios as eonian. Aionion and aionios can be defined as pertaining to or belonging to an eon. Eonian life is parallel with eonian judgment. Life during the eons to come is parallel to the judgment during the eons to come.
The glory and honor and dominion God will have during the eons of the eons during which time He will rule the world through His Anoited King, does not take away from the glory, honor, or dominion He had before the eons, or during the current eons, or after the eons come to an end.
Romans 16:26 refers to God as the eonian God and of the revelation that was kept secret during the eonian times. Pertaining to the eons, God has complete control according to His purposes, He has orchetrated the eonian times and is thus the eonian God.
Albert has yet to address the apparent contradictions created by rendering aionion "eternal" or ever(lasting)...
1. Jude 7 states that Sodom and Gomorrah experienced aionion judgment. If aionion here means eternal, then it flatly contradicts Eze. 16:55 which states that Sodom and its daughters will return to their former estate during the messianic age.
2. The same word;i.e. aion, is translated as meaning an age that has a distinct beginning and an end, but also can be translated as being unending. In some translations it is even translated "age" and "forever" in the same passage! Instead of a consistent rendering, scholars translated according to pre-suppositions.
3. Look at Eph 3:21. In the KJV aion is rendered "world without end". In the Greek aion is written twice, so the translators decided the first aion should be world and the second aion should be "without end". Does this really sound logical? Plus how can they state "world without end" when this creates another contradiction being that this world will be destroyed by fire!
There are other contradictions as well but these are a good start.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/16/2004 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why do the scripture authors even add an adjective to "life"? Because they are distinguishing aionios "eternal" life from regular life (that ends).
I agree that there is an obvious difference between eonian life and "regular" life, just look at 1 Cor. 15, you know, mortal, immortal, corruptable, uncorruptable, soulish, spiritual, etc.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/16/2004 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The glory and honor and dominion God will have during the eons of the eons during which time He will rule the world through His Anoited King, does not take away from the glory, honor, or dominion He had before the eons, or during the current eons, or after the eons come to an end.
If His glory and dominion continue on beyond the "eons" end, so does the punishment, that's what the parallel does. As one is, so is the other.
In scripture, in order to contrast with "life", they used what to describe "life" in Jesus?
aionios
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/16/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
1. Jude 7 states that Sodom and Gomorrah experienced aionion judgment. If aionion here means eternal, then it flatly contradicts Eze. 16:55 which states that Sodom and its daughters will return to their former estate during the messianic age.
Sodom and Gomorrah were cities. The inhabitants at Job's time experience eternal aionios separation from God, the cities can always be rebuilt.
quote:
2. The same word;i.e. aion, is translated as meaning an age that has a distinct beginning and an end, but also can be translated as being unending. In some translations it is even translated "age" and "forever" in the same passage! Instead of a consistent rendering, scholars translated according to pre-suppositions.
aion, yes, but aionios, the adjective, is consistently rendered "eternal"
Note, aion is from the root "aei", which is "always".
quote:
3. Look at Eph 3:21. In the KJV aion is rendered "world without end". In the Greek aion is written twice, so the translators decided the first aion should be world and the second aion should be "without end". Does this really sound logical? Plus how can they state "world without end" when this creates another contradiction being that this world will be destroyed by fire!
Ephesians 3:21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever.
Know what "generations" are?
This is consistent with the meanings of "aion":
aion: lifetime generation eternity
All the parallels I posted were the adjective aionios, consistently rendered "eternal".
aionios: eternal
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/16/2004 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If His glory and dominion continue on beyond the "eons" end, so does the punishment, that's what the parallel does. As one is, so is the other.
You have made this parallel, not scripture. Nowhere in the bible will you find aionion glory, honor, dominion placed in contrast with aionion judgment.
Eph. 3:21
eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon
"all generations of the age of the ages" (Companion Bible)
"all generations for the eon of the eons" (Concordant)
"all the generation of the age of the ages" (Young's literal)
All three have different views of the final destiny of mankind, but all have concluded a similar consistent rendering according to the original manuscripts, not their pre-suppositions.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/17/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | One
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night eis tous aionas ton aionon,
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Non-believers, satan, beast, false prophet all tormented in the lake of fire eis tous aionas ton aionon (eternally)
parallel with
So too will God be honor and glory and dominion eis tous aionas ton aionon (eternally)
Phil. 4:20, 1 Tim. 1:17, 2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 13:21, 1 Peter 4:11, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 7:12, Rev. 11:15, Rev. 22:5
So too will the Lamb live eis tous aionas ton aionon (eternally)
Rev. 1:18, Rev. 4:9, Rev. 4:10, Rev. 10:6, Rev. 15:7
Two
Another brutal parallel given in Matthew 25:46
"And will go off these [goats] into punishment eternal (aionion) the but right ones [sheep] into life eternal (aionion)"
Three
2 Corinthians 4:18
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Paul contrasts the things that are temporal (proskairos, literally 'for a season,') with the things that are eternal (they won't end).
What word does Paul use for "eternal"? aionios
quote:
aion 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Paul contrasts "for a season" with "eternal".
Using "for a season" with "for a season" wouldn't contrast the things which are seen from the things which are not seen.
Titus 1:1 "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2 in the hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"
Now if we already have temporary life, why would we hope for temporary life?
Because aionios means "eternal, endless". That makes sense. We already have temporary life but we hope for eternal (aionos) life.
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/17/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | |
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night eis tous aionas ton aionon,
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Non-believers, satan, beast, false prophet all tormented in the lake of fire eis tous aionas ton aionon (eternally)
parallel with
So too will God be honor and glory and dominion eis tous aionas ton aionon (eternally)
Phil. 4:20, 1 Tim. 1:17, 2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 13:21, 1 Peter 4:11, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 7:12, Rev. 11:15, Rev. 22:5
So too will the Lamb live eis tous aionas ton aionon (eternally)
Rev. 1:18, Rev. 4:9, Rev. 4:10, Rev. 10:6, Rev. 15:7
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/12/2004 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey
Sorry, I haven't read all of the thread, but I thought I would butt in anyway,
Dr Boyd - I'm doing Radical Network with Ichthus in London, and we've just had some teaching on Hell, including a look at your concept of 'nothingness' (from SatPOV). Interesting stuff.
Back to the post.
I think the idea of hellfire being God's presence is spot on on. If you look in Revelation 14:10 "... he [anyone taking the mark of the beast] will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." God's presence is good news for people who love God, but for those who hate him, it's the worst thing ever as it will destroy them!
Best continue reading through...
love
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