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Originally posted by moon_river_j

Hi,

This might be a simplistic kind of question - but maybe some of you out there might "take the bait." I'm wondering...

Jesus gave an "impossible" admonition to the Samaritan woman. It is literally, and factually impossible to "go and sin no more". So, what exactly was he telling her? What is the literal translation? Does God really expect this, when He knows it's not possible?

Jo-Anne

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Beyond this point, assuming for now that the passage is part of the canon, this command to go an sin no more would have been in the context of the specific sin of adultery. This is simply a restatement of the law and Jesus specifically confirming the demands of the law regarding adultery. He did not condone her sin nor did He wish to imply in any way that her actions were not sinful.

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Spenlake: ... this command to go an sin no more would have been in the context of the specific sin of adultery. This is simply a restatement of the law and Jesus specifically confirming the demands of the law regarding adultery.

Jeff: I would think, also, that Christ was implying that she should not be a "sinner" in the sense of sinning willfully against any of the Law (Heb. 10:26).

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Originally posted by barryatk

hey Everyone,

I know Jesus wants me and us to never sin and I know we always will. I also believe He wants me to choose rightly each time and I won't do that either... not every time. I used to have fun trying to get my church folks to even say "I am a saint". Some people will simply not say this. And Paul calls us Saints. SO I went a season saying I am a saint. Recently, i've seen that I am still a sinner ALSO. I am saved by Grace, redeemed by the Blood, destined to be with Him in the mansion prepared for me and you...and I am still going to fail in this day. So I now admit I am a saint AND a sinner. I hear the Holy Spirit telling me to 'Go and sin no more'. I wish I never had to ask God again to forgive my sinning living...still, I will need to every day...and will thank Him for making me the righteous in CHrist!
I have peace with God. I know I will not make every choice in a God-pleasing way...and I pray He will keep me facing the direction of living the life pleasing to Him. I remember, Paul writing, near his earthly end that he was the least of all sinners, yes? I hope I have such humility after I've led thousands to Christ, healed the sick, cast out devils, and that handkerchiefs I use are given to folks to heal them.

Barry

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Originally posted by JEE

1 Cor. 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

(I suppose we need to rewrite this one to read, "Therefore, let him who thinks he is able to stand, even with God's help, take ease, because he's going to fall inevitably anyway.")

13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

And this one must be rewritten to read, "...God is NOT faithful to provide a way of escape from temptation for you in every case; you really can't help it, as you're only human. God knows this, he just likes to torment your conscience by telling you to avoid the unavoidable. He sends the vast majority of mankind to eternity in hell because they don't avoid the unavoidable (i.e., sin).



John

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Maximus the Confessor (born c. 580)
ad thalassium 6
On the Grace of Holy Baptism
(CCSG 7:69-71)
Question. [69] If, as St John says, he who is bom of God does not sin, because his seed dwells in God, and he cannot sin (i Jn 3:9), and yet he who is born of water and Spirit is himself born of God (cf Jn 3:5-6), then how are we who are born of God through baptism still able to sin?

Response. The manner of birth from God within us is two-fold: the one bestows the grace of adoption, which is entirely present in potency (5wauei) in those who are born of God; the other introduces, wholly by active exertion (k(xt' svepyeiciv), that grace which deliberately (yvauiKcoc) reorients the entire free choice of the one being born of God toward the God who gives birth.1 ('Maximus's "realized eschatology" (see Ad Thalassium 22 below) informs his whole understanding of the "potentiality" and "actuality" of the grace of deification. The full fruition of the grace of adoption is already present, at least potentially, in the believer, before it becomes actually operative in the spiritual life.) The first bears the grace, pres­ent in potency, through faith alone; but the second, beyond faith, also engenders in the knower the sublimely divine likeness of the One known, that likeness being effected precisely through knowledge. Therefore the first manner of birth is observed in some because their will (yvrauT)), not yet fully detached from its propensity to the flesh, has yet to be wholly endowed with the Spirit by participation in the divine mysteries that are made known through active endeavor. The inclination to sin does not disappear as long as they will it. For the Spirit does not give birth to an unwilling will (yvout)), but converts the willing will toward deification.2 (This discussion in Ad Thalassium 6 provides another remarkable instance, fro'11 his earlier writings, ofMaximus's positive appraisal of the role of "gnomic" will intn spiritual life, and even in the transition to deification.) Whoever has participated in this deification through cognizant experience3 (On Maximus's sophisticated language of religious "experience" (Tteipa) and till allusion in particular, see Pierre Miquel, "llglpa: Contribution a 1'etude du vocab laire de 1'experience religieuse dans 1'oeuvre de Maxime Ie Confesseur," Studia ^a " tica 7, Texte und Untersuchungen 92 (Berlin: Akademie-Verlag, 1966), pp- 355 (especially p. 358).) is incapable of reverting from right discernment in truth, once he has achieved this in action, to something else besides, which only pretends to be that same dis­cernment. It is like the eye which, once it has looked upon the sun, cannot mistake it for the moon or any of the other stars in the heav­ens. With those undergoing the (second mode of) birth, the Holy Spirit takes the whole of their free choice and translates it completely from earth to heaven, and, through the true knowledge acquired by exertion, transfigures the mind with the blessed light-rays of our God and Father, such that the mind is deemed another "god," insofar as in its habitude it experiences, [71] by grace, that which God himself does not experience but "is" in his very essence. With those undergoing this second mode of baptism, their free choice clearly becomes sin­less in virtue and knowledge, as they are unable to negate what they have actively discerned through experience. So even if we have the Spirit of adoption, who is himself the Seed for enduing those begot­ten (through baptism) with the likeness of the Sower, but do not present him with a will cleansed of any inclination or disposition to something else, we therefore, even after being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5), willingly sin. But were we to prepare our will with knowledge to receive the operation of these agents—water and Spirit, I mean—then the mystical water would, through our practical life, cleanse our conscience, and the life-giving Spirit would bring about unchanging perfection of the good in us through knowledge acquired in experience. Precisely for that reason he leaves, to each of us who are still able to sin, the sheer desire to surrender our whole selves willingly to the Spirit.

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Originally posted by JEE



barryatk said:

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These are paradoxical.

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Hi Barry,

I honestly don't get what you mean by, "paradoxical?" Do you somehow mean true but not true? The Greek and English are quite straightforward. I guess I'm not comfortable questioning God's word by saying God doesn't mean what He says.

That said, in my experience most people just have way too vague and ambiguous a concept of sin. They don't feel 100%, and are perhaps not as "sunshiney" as they think a Christian ought to be, and then they accuse themselves (falsely) by saying such things are sinful.

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I am trying to help myself and others walk in Truth and Freedom.

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Freedom from what?

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...After 30 years in church it seems to me the idea that we are delivered ONCE AND FOR ALL NEVER TO STRUGGLE AGAIN is a bad teaching.

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I agree. Who said anything about "never to struggle again"?

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all he while not seeing my sin cause it is covered by and washed away by and taken care o f by Jesus suffering and death and resurrection.

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When Jesus spoke to the churches in Revelation chs. 2 & 3, he certainly didn't say, "All I can see is My blood when I look at you."

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I cannot pretend that I do no wrong. I will not.

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That's good. I don't believe in pretending, either. That (of course) would be hypocritical.

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I can thankfully admit that I need Him every hour to keep me.

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Me too.

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Make sense,John?

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Not really, but that's okay, I'm used to people sometimes not making sense.

Blessings in the Truth, Who sets us free,

John

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Originally posted by JEE

From the NET Bible (translated by conservative evangelical scholars, none of whom, to my knowledge, are from a Wesleyan-Holiness background) :

1:8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Footnote on "bear the guilt of sin" :

10 tn Grk "say we do not have sin." The use of e[cw + aJmartiva (ecw + Jamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where e[cw governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12-13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of aJmartiva would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression e[cw + aJmartiva occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin. The context of 1 John does not imply libertinism (where sins are flaunted as a way of demonstrating one's "liberty") on the part of the opponents, since the author makes no explicit charges of immoral behavior against his opponents. The worst the author explicitly says is that they have failed to love the brethren (1 John 3:17). It seems more likely that the opponents were saying that things a believer did after conversion were not significant enough to be "sins" that could challenge one's intimate relationship with God (a relationship the author denies that the opponents have to begin with).


http://bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1jo&chapter=1&verse=8&submit=Lookup+Verse

Blessings in Christ,

John

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