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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/5/2004 6:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
Salvation is solely based on faith, so again, how can we claim that those who lived before Christ, who had no contact with Israel and God's law, who were taught their ancestors myths and legends instead of the truth, who have never heard the gospel of because no one was sent to proclaim it to them, had the same opportunity we have to obtain saving faith?
Lock,
Are you honestly interested in what I have to say?
John
Lock,
If you read my scenario about the guy growing up in a gospel-less culture, what would you say if I added to the scenario that he lived before Christ? It seems to me the judgment of God would be made on the same basis in that day as in this. I have also heard that Jesus preached after his death, to those souls that had died before the cross. And it has been taught that at that time, as Jesus offered salvation in it's more final form, they received it. Belonging to the family of GOd has always been by faith. I think of Rahab, who when we meet her has not had any gospel presented, she has only heard of the great power of Israel's God. She had an apparent desire to join God's people and the way then is the same as always..she believed in Him, she joined with His people and worshipped Him. Btw, I loved Francine River's book.."Rahab" and it helped grow faith and understanding in me.
JEE
Interesting that you said you agreed with my scenario and my belief. Then you said all are judged by works? I know the bible references about works. I also believe for we in the house of God, our faith in Jesus blood saves us and it is His work, not mine that saves. Works are an outflow of a God-purchased life, not a way to earn salvation. Or am I not getting what you meant?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Barry-
quote:
My opinion...from Romans 1 and 2, God is revealing Himself and always has. In my scenario, I wasn't accountable to know about Jesus. The gospel wasn't preached to me. I believe in that situation, I was still responsible for my response to the revelation of God that was available to me. I am not saying all Buddhists will or will not go to heaven. I am saying for everyone outside of the preaching of the gospel, they have a chance that depends on how they respond to God as He is revealed to them.
I would have to disagree with this, Barry, because in John 14:16, Jesus declares that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no man can come to the Father but by Jesus. Salvation is through Jesus Christ ALONE. I agree that God will take into account the fact that they were not preached the gospel message when He judges those standing before the white throne, but this considerarion will not lead to salvation. Your scenerio makes faith the criteria of the white throne judgment and we are told in the bible that this is not so. Those standing before the white throne will be judged according to their acts or works.
quote:
I have also heard that Jesus preached after his death, to those souls that had died before the cross. And it has been taught that at that time, as Jesus offered salvation in it's more final form, they received it.
I have heard this taught also, but I believe it flatly contradicts with what the Old Testament teaches about death...
Psa. 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 11/6/2004 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey everyone,
Thanks for your responses. i'll try to tighten down the root of my question, so I'll address each individually if possible.
I'll start with Spenlake--- I guess my first question would be whether you agree with my premises as I stated them in my initial post. Do you believe that God loves each and every individual who has ever lived?
The reason that I ask is because you seem to be set on the fact that only those who have a conscious knowledge of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in order to be saved from eternal damnation. You then seem to imply that no one wants this knowledge unless they are effectively called by the Holy Spirit. I see a pretty typical Calvinistic understanding in your explanation of the scenarios. But the question that comes to my mind is that the implication of your view is that God does not love everyone, because if he did he would effectively call all to salvation.
John--- I think that you have presented your case very well. I too think that without previent grace no one would come to God, in the same way that without God's creative act nothing would exist.
It seems that you are defending the position that someone must have some knowledge of God in order to be saved, but that we are all given some knowledge of God through creation and knowledge of the moral law.
Giving the example of Noah and Moses you seem to be implying that a person does not have to have explicit knowledge of Jesus in order to be saved. But you seem to imply that in the case of Cornelius that he was not saved until he accepted Christ.
The examples you have given are all of people recorded in the Bible who had direct contact either with the gospel or direct interaction with Jehovah in his dealings recorded in the OT. What about people who were not a part of the biblical manifestation of Jehovah's workings? What about a man who lived in China 300 BC? He was a man who hungered for the truth. Would God send him a direct revelation? He couldn't really send a Christian missionary to him, because there weren't any yet.
We still haven't addressed my concern in this thread. I take it as a necessary part of God's love for everyone that he at least give them the opportunity to have a realtionship with him- in this life or in some sort of post-mortem evangelism. But we would all agree that a person's relationship with God would not be nearly as healthy or vibrant without explicit knowledge of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Ross
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/6/2004 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Ross:I'll start with Spenlake--- I guess my first question would be whether you agree with my premises as I stated them in my initial post. Do you believe that God loves each and every individual who has ever lived?
The reason that I ask is because you seem to be set on the fact that only those who have a conscious knowledge of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in order to be saved from eternal damnation. You then seem to imply that no one wants this knowledge unless they are effectively called by the Holy Spirit. I see a pretty typical Calvinistic understanding in your explanation of the scenarios. But the question that comes to my mind is that the implication of your view is that God does not love everyone, because if he did he would effectively call all to salvation.
Spen:Yes, Ross, I believe that God loves each and every individual who has ever lived?
I also believe that those who are damned are damned because they are responsible for their own actions and disobedience to God's laws.
I acknowledge an apparent inconsistancy which you highlight when you say, "the implication of your view is that God does not love everyone, because if he did he would effectively call all to salvation." I do not believe this inconsistancy does what you claim, not because of logic, but because the scriptures clearly indicate that God died for all and that He takes death in the pleasure of no man. The "implication" that you point out, for me is to be found in "mystery" or "transcendance." I believe both sides at once because I believe the Bible teaches BOTH a loving God's sovereignty and our responsibility.
Unless you are a universalist that believes in the ultimate salvation for all, you have some kind of "limited atonement." As I understand it, the OV packages this "limited atonement" in the envelope of freewill that God has created, within which He has limited His sovereignty. I understand the argument, but I find that it simply hides the ultimate problem of evil behind another curtain and, for me, creates more problems than it solves.
I acknowledge the "tension" in my beliefs that you describe and am willing to embrace and live with them. Thank you for your kind approach to my views which you must find disagreeable.
Spen Lake
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/6/2004 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
Salvation is solely based on faith, so again, how can we claim that those who lived before Christ, who had no contact with Israel and God's law, who were taught their ancestors myths and legends instead of the truth, who have never heard the gospel of because no one was sent to proclaim it to them, had the same opportunity we have to obtain saving faith?
Lock,
Romans 1 reveals that even the heathen who, as you say, "were taught their ancestors myths and legends instead of the truth" have the knowledge of God revealed to them in the CREATIVE ORDER, and know enough to know they SHOULD serve Him and live right. For this reason Paul says, "all are WITHOUT excuse." Further, Romans 2 reveals that ALL have the law of their God-given conscience, by which they could do right if they would, and by which they know themselves to be sinners. In the last verse of chapter one of Romans, Paul says that those who suppress the truth (that they know by revelation of CREATION), KNOW that those who sin are deserving of death, BUT, they not only practice such willful rebellion (sin) against the light they do have, they also APPROVE of those who practice such things as homosexual sex and the other sins Paul lists towards the end of Rom. 1.
While it is true that the Advent of Christ and the Gospel of His Kingdom has initiated the final crisis (judgment) of this world, and "God now commands everyone to repent" (Acts 17), and while it is true that the benefits of the Gospel are incalculably extravagant and wonderful, meeting all the needs of everyone who believes, it is simply not the case that everyone who lived prior to the first coming of Christ were not able to be saved.
As I have stated earlier, Abraham is held up as the model of faith in God for all of us to emulate. What missionary or evangelist preached to him? God simply revealed himself to him. Enoch is another who is held up as an exemplary model of faithfulness to and intimate friendship with God, and what record do we have of ANY evangelist ever having preached to him?
If Romans 1 and 2 are to be believed, EVERYONE has enough knowledge of God to obey what they do know and to gain more, if they are willing to obey what they DO know.
Luke 11:9 ¶ "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or {if} he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will {your} heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
I hope this answers your questions. Do you not believe that anyone prior to Christ was truly justified by faith and saved?
John
P.S.: I think it is important to state here that the Bible never reveals IGNORANCE as a cause of damnation; the perfectly consistent testimony of Scripture is that _______ is what merits damnation, and ________ is what sends one to Hell. (As a sort of Bible knowledge drill, please fill in the blanks. Thanks, John).
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/6/2004 6:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
JEE
Interesting that you said you agreed with my scenario and my belief. Then you said all are judged by works? I know the bible references about works. I also believe for we in the house of God, our faith in Jesus blood saves us and it is His work, not mine that saves. Works are an outflow of a God-purchased life, not a way to earn salvation. Or am I not getting what you meant?
Barry
Hi Barry,
Every reference to Judgment Day in Scripture says precisely the same thing about the standard by which every person will be judged--works.
That said, I should hasten to add that one's works are only righteous if one's heart has been made new by the working of the Spirit of God, by means of believing the promises of God. In other words, in God's eyes, one's works can only reveal one's heart; obviously, God sees right through any hypocrite who tries to "earn" God's favor somehow or simply tries to impress people that he is righteous by doing good works.
This is plainly seen in the following passage, for just one example:
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: NASB
Please note that Paul condemns the stubborn and unrepentant HEART, and then commences to show that God will render to each person according to his DEEDS--This is simply the other side of the coin, so to speak, of James' famous words, "faith without works/deeds is dead." There are many other passages which could be brought forth to reveal this plain aspect of gospel truth, but the above should be sufficient.
Please also note that meritorious works are absolutely impossible, for, if one SHOULD do something, one CAN do that something, and if one should and one can, one earns nothing for doing one's duty:
Luke 17:7 ¶ "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and {properly} clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done {only} that which we ought to have done.'"
In other words, living righteous and holy before God is not somehow earning extra credit, but is merely the bare minimum (and the full maximum) which God requires of us all--to love God supremely and one's neighbor as oneself. Whenever we do not do this, it is sin. Whenever we do practice these two greatest commands, we are only doing what we ought to do. Even the rewards we may receive in heaven are by God's grace.
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/6/2004 7:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rossfadeinout
John--- I think that you have presented your case very well. I too think that without previent grace no one would come to God, in the same way that without God's creative act nothing would exist.
Thanks.
quote:
It seems that you are defending the position that someone must have some knowledge of God in order to be saved, but that we are all given some knowledge of God through creation and knowledge of the moral law.
Yes.
quote:
Giving the example of Noah and Moses you seem to be implying that a person does not have to have explicit knowledge of Jesus in order to be saved.
Did Enoch, Noah or Moses know of Jesus' Name or the fullness of His Gospel?
quote:
But you seem to imply that in the case of Cornelius that he was not saved until he accepted Christ.
I should say that I certainly believe the spiritual benefits offered under the Gospel of Christ far supercede any that even the best OT saints ever walked in. I do affirm what's known of as "progressive revelation," by which God revealed progressively more and more of Himself and the way of salvation throughout the Old Testament, culminating in His Final Word to mankind, His Only Son, Jesus Christ (Heb. 1).
What I meant about Cornelius' case is that once Peter preached the Gospel to him and his household, he received it and experienced the fullness of New Testament salvation. (I think it is important to properly define "salvation" scripturally--it is far more than simply deliverance from Hell). Cornelius was quite obviously in the process of being drawn to a full relationship with Jesus Christ before Peter ever arrived, if the narrative in Acts 10 is to be taken as truth.
quote:
The examples you have given are all of people recorded in the Bible who had direct contact either with the gospel or direct interaction with Jehovah in his dealings recorded in the OT. What about people who were not a part of the biblical manifestation of Jehovah's workings?
Why must we assume that God limited his revelation and salvation to only those in the recorded history of the Bible? (A great book by a modern missionary that brilliantly illustrates the fact that God is at work in many pre-Christian cultures to a remarkable degree, is Eternity In Their Hearts.
For instance, virtually every culture has expressed a belief in a Creator or at least a pantheon of supernatural creators, a belief in the existence of a supernatural realm of spirits, the great need for a blood atonement, etc. This is not to say that their religious beliefs are just as good as Christianity (for they obviously are not); however, my only point in bringing this up is that these facts reveal a universally intuited religious sensibility, and many primitive tribes have exhibited a remarkable degree of understanding of a "pre-Gospel" type of religion. It is often the case that the missionaries find the way has already been prepared by the Spirit of grace before the missionaries even arrived.
Also, I think we must take seriously the possibility that God could simply directly reveal himself to anyone He wished to, just like He did for Abraham, Enoch, and the Three Wise Men, for example.
quote:
What about a man who lived in China 300 BC? He was a man who hungered for the truth. Would God send him a direct revelation? He couldn't really send a Christian missionary to him, because there weren't any yet.
No, but again, it seems to me that your question as posed would require us to say that none of the OT saints were really saved, either. They certainly never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet the New Testament holds such individuals up as models of faith for us, and says that they PLEASED GOD!
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please {Him,} for he who comes to God must believe that He is and {that} He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen...
(A DIRECT revelation of God to him)...
, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called...
(A DIRECT revelation of God to him...),
...obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
quote:
We still haven't addressed my concern in this thread. I take it as a necessary part of God's love for everyone that he at least give them the opportunity to have a realtionship with him- in this life or in some sort of post-mortem evangelism. But we would all agree that a person's relationship with God would not be nearly as healthy or vibrant without explicit knowledge of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Ross
In my view, based on what God has revealed of how he dealt with people before Christ came, and based on the passages I have cited earlier in this thread, in this present age, if someone were truly hungering and thirsting after righteousness, God would see to it that he was filled with the object of his desire, by whatever means God saw fit to use, whether by direct revelation of the truth, by sending a missionary, or even, as we see in Revelation, by sending an ANGEL to preach the everlasting gospel to all the world.
Rev 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people
Hope this helps to clarify,
John
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted Yesterday 1:58 AM (GMT -6) | | John: I think it is important to state here that the Bible never reveals IGNORANCE as a cause of damnation;
Spen: There is a certain sense that people perish because of ignorance. God judges those who reject knowledge, even that knowledge of Him provided by creation, let alone the explicit knowledge provided by His Law and even more so the ultimate revelation of the knowledge of God provided in His Son, the Christ.
Isaiah 5:
Their banquets are accompanied by lyre and harp, by tambourine and flute, and by wine;
But they do not pay attention to the deeds of the LORD,
Nor do they consider the work of His hands.
Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge;
Hosea 4:
Yet let no one find fault, and let none offer reproof;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
So you will stumble by day,
And the prophet also will stumble with you by night;
And I will destroy your mother.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest.
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted Yesterday 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | John: As I have stated earlier, Abraham is held up as the model of faith in God for all of us to emulate. What missionary or evangelist preached to him? God simply revealed himself to him. Enoch is another who is held up as an exemplary model of faithfulness to and intimate friendship with God, and what record do we have of ANY evangelist ever having preached to him?
John: Also, I think we must take seriously the possibility that God could simply directly reveal himself to anyone He wished to, just like He did for Abraham, Enoch, and the Three Wise Men, for example.
Spen: John, it was exactly because of this discussion and the attempt by men in the modern apostolic/prophetic movement (such as Paul Cain) to justify their claims to DIRECT authoritative revelations that I began to consider my concept of "120 years" in which this Direct Revelation between the spirits and humans that led to so much evil (in addition to the few like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Job that "believed God and obeyed Him"). I don't believe that the three wise men, literally Magi or astrologers, are recorded as having a visitation from God, they were warned in a dream. Whether or not my understanding has validity, all of the examples you cite end with the giving of the written Law and the authoritative Word of God and the death of Moses. God continued to be active in some kind of way through the prophets, but Moses predicted the one great prophet who would come and that we were to listen. Jesus was the definitive Direct Revelation. He bridged the spirit/human interface and God/Spirit became man and we touched Him, saw Him, and heard God's direct words - the visible glory of the invisible God.
In your claim regarding the "fathers" it seems like you leave room for their being additional "fathers" and ongoing "fathers" that have the same direct revevlations as Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. The list of those that interacted directly with God is actually much longer. We have Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, Job, Sarah, Lot and others. These men all lived exceedingly long lives. They had genetic capablities that we do not have now based upon the length of their lives, which for some were many hundreds of years. Whatever happened then, we are not told to have the same Direct Revelations of God that Abraham had, we are told to believe in and obey the God of Abraham. This is why he is considered our father and Sarah our mother. We believe in the God that revealed Himself to Abraham and not to us Directly. We continue to believe in Jesus that revealed Himself to men 2000 years ago. On the basis of the writings of these men we have faith, not because of additional Direct Revelations or incarnations of Jesus.
The historical record of the cultures around the world are consistent in their claims that at one time men could directly interact with "gods." The historical record is also full of accounts of a time when men lived for very long periods of time. Then this ceased, in both the historical record and in the record of the Bible. The economy for interaction between man and God altered and became different. We had the advent of idolatry and the giving of the Law.
Thus Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner and the others cannot simply claim to be another Abraham. Even the Jews did not believe in another round of "fathers." Their time had passed on. Instead of the Direct Revlations of the fathers, God became man and dwelt among us. We have proof that He was God in that after we, in our hate and rebellion, killed Him - He rose bodily as He had predicted to prove that His claims were true.
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted Today 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
JEE
Interesting that you said you agreed with my scenario and my belief. Then you said all are judged by works? I know the bible references about works. I also believe for we in the house of God, our faith in Jesus blood saves us and it is His work, not mine that saves. Works are an outflow of a God-purchased life, not a way to earn salvation. Or am I not getting what you meant?
Barry
Hi Barry,
Every reference to Judgment Day in Scripture says precisely the same thing about the standard by which every person will be judged--works.
That said, I should hasten to add that one's works are only righteous if one's heart has been made new by the working of the Spirit of God, by means of believing the promises of God. In other words, in God's eyes, one's works can only reveal one's heart; obviously, God sees right through any hypocrite who tries to "earn" God's favor somehow or simply tries to impress people that he is righteous by doing good works.
This is plainly seen in the following passage, for just one example:
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: NASB
Please note that Paul condemns the stubborn and unrepentant HEART, and then commences to show that God will render to each person according to his DEEDS--This is simply the other side of the coin, so to speak, of James' famous words, "faith without works/deeds is dead." There are many other passages which could be brought forth to reveal this plain aspect of gospel truth, but the above should be sufficient.
Please also note that meritorious works are absolutely impossible, for, if one SHOULD do something, one CAN do that something, and if one should and one can, one earns nothing for doing one's duty:
Luke 17:7 ¶ "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and {properly} clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done {only} that which we ought to have done.'"
In other words, living righteous and holy before God is not somehow earning extra credit, but is merely the bare minimum (and the full maximum) which God requires of us all--to love God supremely and one's neighbor as oneself. Whenever we do not do this, it is sin. Whenever we do practice these two greatest commands, we are only doing what we ought to do. Even the rewards we may receive in heaven are by God's grace.
John
Appreciate your responses,Jee. Funny that we agree that all have a chance for eternal life and don't agree on how they get it. Or how they keep it. I've always been taught that believers don't get judged at the White Throne. We come to the Judgement of Christ. I don't see Jesus there examining my works to see if I'm saved. I am there to have my works examined to determine my rewards. I wouldn't even be there if I hadn't been saved first. SO do you believe in various levels of reward in heaven? As well as various levels of punishment in hell?
I especially agree with the non-judgement that must be the case with babies, mentally ill, and others who cannot be held entirely accountable. I know it's a gray area...are we accountable by 8, 12, 18? How insane must one be to be unaccountable? I am just glad that those I know and love do have the gospel preaching in their lives!
Can we be called inclusive because of the beliefs we share here?
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted Today 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Believers are included in the "Great White Throne Judgment."
Rev 20:11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one {of them} according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
If we may receive recompense for bad deeds we may have done (and in this passage Paul is specifically referring to himself and believers), it is not clear how this would be "just for rewards."
John
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted Today 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I hope this answers your questions. Do you not believe that anyone prior to Christ was truly justified by faith and saved?
John
I believe the OT saints were saved through faith, faith in the promises of God. The promises of God spoke of Christ. Jesus spoke of Abraham "seeing" Jesus' day and being glad(John 8:56). In Romans 4:6-8, Paul quotes King David, who is speaking of righteousness apart from acts. The OT saints had a concept of God's work through Jesus, even if, as others stated, they may have not known Jesus by name.
quote:
In my view, based on what God has revealed of how he dealt with people before Christ came, and based on the passages I have cited earlier in this thread, in this present age, if someone were truly hungering and thirsting after righteousness, God would see to it that he was filled with the object of his desire, by whatever means God saw fit to use, whether by direct revelation of the truth, by sending a missionary, or even, as we see in Revelation, by sending an ANGEL to preach the everlasting gospel to all the world.
The problem I see with this is that it puts a prerequisite on God's salvation.
The prerequisite= a person must truly hunger and thirst for righteousness;
Then God sends them a revelation.
The bible teaches that salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 1:18 - 3:20 has nothing of faith or Jesus; instead it speaks of mankinds' unrighteous acts which leads to God's righteous judgment. The fact that this section does not speak of faith, or on the other hand, unbelief, tells me that this does not speak of the ultimate salvation of mankind, because salvation is by faith, not works. God's judgment of the majority of mankind before the white throne according to their works, is only a part of the process of God revealing His righteousness and His work of reconciling them to Himself.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted Today 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | |
Hi again Spen,
As a followup to my earlier post, I would just have to say that I find your assertion that a false prophet (such as Cain, Joyner, et al, have abundantly shown themselves to be) can possibly have a heart that is right with God strains all credulity. Jesus refers to such people as "wolves in sheep's clothing," not, "misguided or mistaken sheep."
Additionally, as Hebrews ch. 1 reveals that in these last days God has spoken through His Son (Jesus is God's "final word"), I think I would agree with you that any contemporary revelation would have to agree with Scripture, and could never contradict God's final revelation of Christ and the New Testament Scriptures.
In other words, I completely agree with you that such men as Cain, etc., could not be "another Abraham," so to speak, in the sense of adding to or taking away from that revelation which God has already revealed to mankind; i.e., the Scriptures. My only contention in this particular discussion has been that God could reveal himself directly to someone who had no access to the Scriptures, nor to the message of Christ otherwise through human instrumentality.
As Cain, Joyner, etc., all have abundant access to the Holy Scriptures, they of course would fall into quite a different category than that of a heathen who no such access to the Bible. Indeed, the fact that Cain, etc., have such abundant access to the revealed Word of God in the Scriptures only intensifies their responsibility to obey and their great guilt in disobeying.
Blessings to you,
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted Today 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
As Christ is the light that lighteth every man who comes into the world, and as Romans 1 and 2 reveal that all people have already received enough revelation of God to act upon in faith, the "hungering and thirsting after righteousness" would not in any case precede the prevenient grace of God.
John-
Here lies my point; you state above that Rom. 1 and 2 "reveal that all people have already recieved enoigh revelation of God to act upon in FAITH," but as I stated Rom. 1 and 2 never speak of faith.
Romans 1 does in fact speak of faith:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
It is my understanding that anyone who ever is declared righteous by God is declared so for the same reason as Abraham was--"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness."
"The just shall live by faith" is true for anyone.
Further, the fact that Paul says "though they KNEW God, they did not want to retain the knowledge of God in their minds..." reveals to me that they had the opportunity to either affirm or deny God's authority over their lives--which is simply another way of defining what faith is.
quote:
Paul concludes this section of scripture with Rom. 3: 19, 20 and makes it clear that no flesh is justified by the works of the law.
With which I of course agree; no flesh can be justified by works of the law, period. In every age, anyone who is justified is justified by one way and by one way only--by faith (obedient trust in God).
quote:
Then begins the next section speaking of the faith of Jesus Christ. Being that the judgment before the white throne is based solely on works and not faith, how can this be the final judgment upon a majority of mankind determining their eternal fate?
What one does (works) reveals one's heart (what one believes).
John
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/9/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Romans 1 does in fact speak of faith:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
John-
The topic of our discussion has been the section of scripture between 1:18-3:20 which speaks of (as 1:18 states) God's indignation being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men. When I referred to Romans 1 and 2 not mentioning faith, I was speaking of this section.
quote:
"The just shall live by faith" is true for anyone.
With which I of course agree; no flesh can be justified by works of the law, period. In every age, anyone who is justified is justified by one way and by one way only--by faith (obedient trust in God).
We have common ground here. Where we differ on this subject is where we differ on many others. I believe that Romans 1:18-3:20 speaks of the works of mankind while being lead by the flesh and fleshly desires. Even though man was created with a conscience, which has the law of God written in it, and even though the Israelites were given the Law, which was in place for the recognition of sin, man choses to follow his flesh and fleshy desires. Romans 1:21 speaks of "knowing God". Every person has the intellectual ability to know God, but this does not speak of the intimate experience of being lead by God's spirit and having "faith".
If I am correctly understanding your position, you believe that this section of scripture speaks of mankind's deeds after they were sufficiently lead by God's spirit to believe God, but they chose not to and this choice is what lead them to distort God's glory.
To answer Ross' original question...
If one were to take the position presented by John above (and I agree with Ross that John has presented well) then you would have to believe that those born before Christ were given the same opportunity as we are to have faith in God's salvation through Jesus Christ and thus be "responsibile" for their condemnation and eternity in hell.
If one were to take the position I am presenting, that those born before Christ (excluding the OT saints), who never had direct or indirect contact with God through Israel and the law, the prophets, angels, etc. will be accountable for their actions at God's judgment before the white throne, but this will not be for their final destiny. Instead it is part of the process of God revealing His righteousness and they will receive their "opportunity" for faith in God's salvation through Jesus Christ at the consummation of the eons.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/9/2004 4:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
To answer Ross' original question...
If one were to take the position presented by John above (and I agree with Ross that John has presented well) then you would have to believe that those born before Christ were given the same opportunity as we are to have faith in God's salvation through Jesus Christ and thus be "responsibile" for their condemnation and eternity in hell.
Hi Lock,
The basis for condemnation, in every age, is SIN, not ignorance. No one goes to Hell because of ignorance; all that end up there will be there because of their own willful refusal of the light they DID have, (which is sin) however relatively dim the light they had may have been.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Matt. 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev. 21:7 He who overcomes...[we overcome by faith, according to 1 John]...shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars...[unrepentant sinners]...shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
2 Cor. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Sin brings condemnation, but only FAITH in God can bring justification/righteousness to a person; therefore, "those that have done good" in the John 5 passage above can only be those who have placed their faith in God, and their works reveal their change of heart/newness of life. (This prevents any from boasting that they somehow could "deserve" heaven).
John
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