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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 11/4/2004 7:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey all,
I have been struggling with a question for a long time. I have read many articles and books, but the difficulty still remains.
I guess you could classify the question under the general heading of Christian exclusivism vs. inclusivism (whatever form you take)
As Christians, we believe that God is love. As "creative love theists" (to use Pinnock's phrase) we believe that God loves every person who ever lived or ever will live. God has a desire to be in right relationship with everyone.
As Christians, we also believe that true life, true salvation, true joy only comes through a relationship with Jesus Christ. We also believe that knowledge of Jesus can only come through specific revelation through scripture.
But there were people living thousands and thousands of years before Jesus Christ ever came. When he did come, he only came to one specific spot in the world. in the 2000 years since he came, the majority of people living on the earth have not had a presentation of the good news given to them.
To me there is clearly a problem here for Christians. We say that God wants to have a realtionship with everyone, that he wants the best for everyone. BUT the majority of human beings who have lived have not had the opportunity to hear or read about God's revealtion of his love in Jesus Christ.
I have been an inclusivist for a long time. I know that if God is love and if God desires the best for everyone, then everyone will have the opportunity to have a relationship with God in some form.
But even inclusivist Christians (CS Lewis, John Sanders, Doc, and most of you on this board) would say that a healthy and full relationship with God can only come through understanding the fullness of God's love as revealed in Jesus the Christ.
And the simple fact is that most people (easily 90% or more) throughout history did not have the opportunity to know the fullness of God's love found in the self revelation of Jesus incarnation.
So how do you reconcile God's love with the lack of opportunity that most people have to know Jesus?
really wondering,
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | |
Hi Ross,
Don't have time right now to give as full an answer as I would prefer, but my understanding of the teaching of Scripture on this is that if a person truly hungered and thirsted for righteousness (found only in Jesus Christ) they would be filled. Romans 1, 2 & 3 lay out plainly the fact that all are without excuse for sin, because though they know who God is, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and do not want to retain the knowledge of God in their minds. Romans 2 also plainly states that those who do not have the Law of Moses have the Law of Conscience, by which they know right from wrong, and by which they COULD live righteously if they wanted to. Also John ch. 1 says Christ is the light that lighteth every man who comes into the world.
Cornelius is a good example of how this works--he did not know Christ, but prayed earnestly and was a sincere believer to the extent of his knowledge of God, and God sent Peter to bring him the good news.
Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all {people} life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one {man} every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined {their} appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
As to those who lived and died prior to Christ, they would fall into the same category as Abraham, who "believed God" (not necessarily Jesus per se) "and God credited it to him as righteousness."
If anyone truly wants to know God, God will reveal himself to them. (This does not lessen the import of the Great Commission in the least; if anything, it underscores the importance of believers being sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit to evangelize, just as Peter, though somewhat reluctant, was).
Blessings in Christ to All,
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
I read your post and am interested in your take on Cornelius. I have been pondering this for a while. It seems to me that he was not saved prior to hearing the gospel. I have some reasons for this but I am curious as to your opinion. Whatever confusion may exist as to his status before Peter's visit, we have the revealed salvation of God in His giving them the Holy Spirit after Peter's explanation of the gospel.
Hi spen,
I tend to agree that Cornelius & Co. were not saved until they heard and believed the gospel. My point above was simply that if anyone truly desired to know God, God would reveal himself to them eventually.
I think Peter's words to the house of Cornelius shed some light on the question:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak to them: ‘I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Earlier in the passage, it is revealed to us that Cornelius "feared God," gave alms, and prayed constantly:
Acts 10:2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God.
(Anticipating an understandable objection, I should hasten to add that there can be no meritorious good works by which God would be obligated to save someone. All God's revelation to mankind proceeds from God's great heart of love, and is truly of grace).
Blessings,
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
This still does not address the millions of people living before Christ, who never heard the gospel message, who never had any experience with Israel and God's law, who when concerning gods, only heard the legends and myths passed down by their ancestors. Can you honestly say they had the same opportuniy we have to accept God's proposal of salvation through Christ?
According to Romans 1, no one has ever been without the clear witness of the existence of God, and that they should honor Him with their lives. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
According to Romans 2, no one has ever been without the clear witness of their conscience, and they could obey what they know to be right if they would. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
According to the first chapter of John, Christ is the light that lighteth everyone who comes into the world. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
According to Paul's sermon on Mars' Hill, "In Him we live and move and have our being," and "He is not far from any one of us," and people might "grope for" Him and find Him. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
I don't think your objection poses any more of a problem than the issue of how there could be saints in the Old Testament time period, before Christ came in the flesh.
Abraham lived before Christ, and from what we know of his background, his family were polytheists. Noah lived before Christ, in a very evil age, and yet God found in Noah a man who was truly righteous.
John
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | The Old Testament saints had contact with God. I do not contend that Jesus is not the light for the whole world, but those who lived before Jesus entered the world did not, as of yet, recieve the same opportunity as we do to believe. Answer the question straight forward, did they (those living before hundreds of years before Jesus)have the same opportunity as we do to believe in Jesus? Did they as Paul writes, hear the message of Christ crucified, becasue if they do not hear, then how can they believe?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
This still does not address the millions of people living before Christ, who never heard the gospel message, who never had any experience with Israel and God's law, who when concerning gods, only heard the legends and myths passed down by their ancestors. Can you honestly say they had the same opportuniy we have to accept God's proposal of salvation through Christ?
According to Romans 1, no one has ever been without the clear witness of the existence of God, and that they should honor Him with their lives. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
According to Romans 2, no one has ever been without the clear witness of their conscience, and they could obey what they know to be right if they would. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
According to the first chapter of John, Christ is the light that lighteth everyone who comes into the world. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
According to Paul's sermon on Mars' Hill, "In Him we live and move and have our being," and "He is not far from any one of us," and people might "grope for" Him and find Him. This specifically includes all who have ever lived since Adam.
I don't think your objection poses any more of a problem than the issue of how there could be saints in the Old Testament time period, before Christ came in the flesh.
Abraham lived before Christ, and from what we know of his background, his family were polytheists. Noah lived before Christ, in a very evil age, and yet God found in Noah a man who was truly righteous.
John
Hey All!
I called 5-6 pastors locally and gave them this scenario:
I grow up in Japan. I never ever hear the gospel. I am raised as a Buddhist. I die. Where do I spend eternity?
This brought usually definite responses. You go to hell. You go to heaven.
My opinion...from Romans 1 and 2, God is revealing Himself and always has. In my scenario, I wasn't accountable to know about Jesus. The gospel wasn't preached to me. I believe in that situation, I was still responsible for my response to the revelation of GOd that was available to me. I am not saying all Buddhists will or will not go to heaven. I am saying for everyone outside of the preaching of the gospel, they have a chance that depends on how they respond to God as He is revealed to them.
Carlton Pearson, a minister I have spoken with, from Tulsa Ok. is now teaching that everyone definitely goes to heaven. He goes way beyond what I am trying to say. He also says his message is being widely and wildly accepted among evangelicals. It seems to boil down to whether I want to try to scare people with messages of damnation and get them to receive Christ or do I want to present the Love of God and the Blessing of knowing Him to persuade them to give their heart gladly to Him.
Blessings,
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The Old Testament saints had contact with God. I do not contend that Jesus is not the light for the whole world, but those who lived before Jesus entered the world did not, as of yet, recieve the same opportunity as we do to believe. Answer the question straight forward, did they (those living before hundreds of years before Jesus)have the same opportunity as we do to believe in Jesus? Did they as Paul writes, hear the message of Christ crucified, becasue if they do not hear, then how can they believe?
Lock,
As Paul himself makes abundantly clear, Abraham, the model of faith for us to emulate, was JUSTIFIED by faith, before Christ came. Christ's coming into the world did fulfill prophecy, and I would certainly say if any were saved B.C., they were saved through the saving power of Christ, even if they did not receive the full understanding of Christ and His Gospel prior to their death. However, if we do not view Abraham (and all other OT saints) as being truly righteous/justified by faith, it seems to me that we must deny Paul's entire argument in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.
"The just shall live by faith" has always been true, or else God is a liar, and is patently unfair. Hebrews 11 shows plainly that the OT saints lived by faith in God, regardless of the fact that the Messiah had not yet come.
John
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
My opinion...from Romans 1 and 2, God is revealing Himself and always has. In my scenario, I wasn't accountable to know about Jesus. The gospel wasn't preached to me. I believe in that situation, I was still responsible for my response to the revelation of GOd that was available to me. I am not saying all Buddhists will or will not go to heaven. I am saying for everyone outside of the preaching of the gospel, they have a chance that depends on how they respond to God as He is revealed to them.
Hi Barry,
I certainly agree.
quote:
Carlton Pearson, a minister I have spoken with, from Tulsa Ok. is now teaching that everyone definitely goes to heaven. He goes way beyond what I am trying to say. He also says his message is being widely and wildly accepted among evangelicals. It seems to boil down to whether I want to try to scare people with messages of damnation and get them to receive Christ or do I want to present the Love of God and the Blessing of knowing Him to persuade them to give their heart gladly to Him.
Blessings,
Barry
Where Carlton Pearson errs (like all universalists tend to) is in his misunderstanding of the nature of the atonement, or how the Cross of Christ saves us. If the Cross was a "quid pro quo" exact financial transaction, then either strict Calvinism or strict universalism by definition would be true.
If on the other hand, we stick to the Bible's own teaching on the atoning death of Christ, we find that it is never spoken of as a payment of debt or penalty for sin (quid pro quo). To the contrary, Scripture everywhere asserts that Christ's death is a ransom/redemption price, and that the conditions of inclusion in the benefits of Christ's ransom for us are repentance, faith, and continuance in the faith.
From what I've been hearing, Pearson's teaching on this has caused him to be publicly rejected by most of his former ministerial colleagues. I can only hope that such rejection of this damnable heresy continues.
John
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Can you imagine God telling someone who's just died, "Well, you know, you really wanted to know who and what I am. You even prayed several times that if there was a God--and you believed there was--would He please help you to know Him. But you died before any missionary got to you; you never heard the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sorry, but off to hell with you. 'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ'. Away with you now!"
When Paul said faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ, he was addressing the manner in which one comes to relationship to God through Jesus in view of the opposite manner Israel tried to get to God. The verse is in context to a people (Israel) who will not adhere to the message they DID receive contrasted with those who have heard (Gentiles) and believed. This has nothing to do with the fellow who has never even heard of Jesus, the God of Christianity or the Bible. Romans 1–2 deals with the issue of those who have not heard the gospel, and all that's said about them is God is able to judge and render decisions about these folk's destinies...all in due time.
Finally, some argue that God will send a missionary to the soul that is thirsting after God. Where's their Scripture? There's no Scripture that states God absolutely will send someone to a thirsty soul. (And, once again, Romans 10 doesn't even fit the bill for this context).
What I'm saying is that it's really up to God when it comes to those who have never heard; for He only is capable of rendering a decision about those who never hear the gospel. But one thing's for sure: the love of God for humanity proclaimed throughout the Bible does not allow us to rush to the conclusion that those who never hear are going to hell. It's just not quite that simple.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Starkman
Can you imagine God telling someone who's just died, "Well, you know, you really wanted to know who and what I am. You even prayed several times that if there was a God--and you believed there was--would He please help you to know Him. But you died before any missionary got to you; you never heard the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sorry, but off to hell with you. 'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ'. Away with you now!"
Hi Starkdude,
No, I couldn't imagine that.
quote:
Finally, some argue that God will send a missionary to the soul that is thirsting after God. Where's their Scripture?
(I think Jesus' words are unmistakeable: Blessed are those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they SHALL be filled. For further clarification, please see my earlier posts in this thread).
John
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/4/2004 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | |
Stark: Can you imagine God telling someone who's just died, "Well, you know, you really wanted to know who and what I am.
Spen: I cannot imagine this happening because I don't believe that there is one of us that would seek Him as he has chosen to reveal Himself, on our own. I may be a minority on this site but I believe that unless God had already sought us, we would never seek God and therefore I cannot imagine your statement if you meant God would say, "Well, you know, you really wanted to know who and what I am on your own and obey Me perfectly and come to Me."
God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.
Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/4/2004 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi spen,
I agree that no one seeks God "on their own." I affirm the Arminian concept of prevenient grace, that extends to all mankind to enough of a degree for them to respond.
John
I understand the concept and your belief, and while I may disagree, I don't consider it "fatal." It is something to me that seems more of a mystery than clear. In any case, however this happens, this still does not change the statement above. Without this grace, on their own, none would seek God and all would perish in their sins even when offered the gospel for free.
Frankly, and again many would disagree with me, I am amazed that any are saved at all as I come to understand how wicked and stubborn my sinful nature and appetites are. It seems that I run towards deception as the "default mode." I resonate with the passage:AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? This seems a strong passage regarding the teachings of men like Pearson.
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/4/2004 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | There seems to be an assumption that all mankind will be judged according to his faith before the white throne. From Romans 1:18-2:29, which speaks of God righteous judgment of mankind, not once is faith, belief, or unbelief mentioned. Instead it is clear that God will judge man according to his deeds, works, or acts (Romans 2:6, Rev. 20:12). When a person stands before the white throne they will not be judged for unbelief, but instead their acts! Those who believe during this age will be resurrected with Christ a full thousand years before the white throne judgment. Romans 1 speaks to the gentiles for the most part and Romans 2 to the Jews. Both chapters list the defient acts of mankind, and nothing about faith. Again I ask, even though mankind will be held accountable for their acts according to God's law (the Jews) or the conscience (the gentiles), how can we claim that those who walked the earth before Christ appeared had the same opportunity to obtain saving faith (with the exception of the Old Testement saints) as we have?
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