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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/13/2004 12:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | Unfortunately, while I don't believe that Andrew Strom has actually left the beliefs of this movement (and I pray that God will continue the process of opening up his eyes), I do feel that his observations are interesting and valuable for those of you who were blessed enough not to ever have been a part of it.
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/leaving2.html
Excerpts below:
And speaking of the sad and grievous state of this movement, I wonder how many of you received the following notice from the Elijah List recently about a forthcoming 'School of the Prophets': "God is releasing a new level of revelation that goes beyond just operating in the nine gifts of the Spirit." [Pardon me?? -ed.] "Sessions will cover topics like Hearing the Voice of God, Activating your Spiritual Senses, Third Heaven Experiences, and Exploring Spirit Realms." The advertised speakers are Todd Bentley, Stacey Campbell, Larry Randolph, Paul Keith Davis, and Bobby Conner.
Now, I have come across Todd Bentley's teachings on "How to visit the Third Heaven" before, and I tell you, it is nothing less than 'Guided Visualization' taken straight out of the New Age movement. Nothing less and nothing more. It is exactly the same. And I want you to know that if you attend these kinds of things, or allow these men to 'guide' you or lay hands upon you, then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of spirits and demonic counterfeits. As I have stated before, this movement has absolutely NO DISCERNMENT at all. It has sunk into such deception that it's leaders are opening people up to all kinds of demonic experiences on a daily basis. It has no idea that it is even doing it. -It behaves exactly like a movement that has been "given over to deception" by God. I urge again that everyone reading this would prayerfully consider CUTTING OFF all ties to this movement, lest you yourself become tainted by it.
It is with great sadness that I make the above points. I have refrained from saying such things in the past, but I can no longer do so, because untold people are being spiritually damaged by what is going on. Please understand my heart in this.
For the same reason I also need to warn you about another 'prophetess' who is often featured on the Elijah List. Her name is Jill Austin and I have personally witnessed her ministry in action. I would describe it as one of the most disturbing (by far) meetings that I have ever been in. There was definitely a strange "power" operating, but it certainly did not seem like God to me. She is also an expert at 'hyping' an audience. Please be very careful in such environments, my friends. -You can end up taking part in things that you would never normally do, just because you are part of a large crowd.
Sadly, there seem to be many other ministries in this movement involved in similar deception. In fact, I hate to say it, but a general rule might be that if someone is featured on the Elijah List, there has to be at least an 80% chance that their ministry is "off" in some major way. I will say just one more thing about the Elijah List: I am convinced that they will one day give account to God for taking upon themselves the name "Elijah" and then doing what they have done with it. Literally, by their own words they will be judged.
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/13/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
This argument is getting old, innuendo about "occult" or "new age" practises.
Spiritual power is spiritual power - its not magic. It is not beyond the bounds of understanding that Satanis or Demonic power would operate in simliar ways to Godly power. After all, they were angels originally.
Judgement is by FRUIT. Labelling something you don't understand as "New Age" because new Agers do something similar is ridiculous, and beneath the standards you yourself espouse. The Bible does not give guidelines on "how to's", so we cannot use such to determine origins of the power used.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/13/2004 6:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I have to ask:
How can one "leave" what one isn't a part of? I have yet to hear Mr Strom's name mentioned in the same breath at any conference as any of the leaders of the movement he claims to have left. I am quite familiar with most of the ministries he mentions, and have never known him to be linked with any of them.
Sorry, he does have his "own" ministry, which in the few occasions I have encountered it has been mostly disagreeing with and sledging the leaders named.
Paul Keith Davis' comments seem quite relevent. A self-proclaimed "prophet" arrives at the pastor's lounge of a large conference, distributes his own "revelation" on what God wants for the conference (which he has had nothing to do with organising) and then gets heaps of publicity sledging the event when his version wasn't accepted by the leaders involved. Sounds like the craziness which gives all prophetic people a bad rap with pastors and leaders. There is a right way to approach leaders, this absolutely wasn't it.
If Mr Strom wants to be taken seriously, he should consider character. Daniel knew how to approach leaders and be listened to. There are many others who need to learn that lesson.
Paul D
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/14/2004 12:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
Hi Spen,
This argument is getting old, innuendo about "occult" or "new age" practises. Spiritual power is spiritual power - its not magic. It is not beyond the bounds of understanding that Satanis or Demonic power would operate in simliar ways to Godly power. After all, they were angels originally.
Judgement is by FRUIT. Labelling something you don't understand as "New Age" because new Agers do something similar is ridiculous, and beneath the standards you yourself espouse. The Bible does not give guidelines on "how to's", so we cannot use such to determine origins of the power used.
Paul D
Paul,
Your first argument is one that I've often heard to justify occult or New Age techniques in the church, Satan just conterfeits what is real. The concept is that if we are aware of an occult technique to gain or release spiritual power, there must be a true "Christian" one which is has copied. This is exactly the argument put forth by a leader to justify what Andrew believed to be pagan dancing. The concept is anti-bibical. While you claim otherwise, the Bible clearly does give guidelines on "how to's" exactly so that we can determine the source of the power.
God does explicitly and specifically give a positive "how to" regarding specific techniques that were legal and by whom. The lot and the urim v'tumim (reading sacred stones attached to the breastplate of the high priest in ancient Judaism) were both legal for the Jews. I find it interesting that the last time the lot is used for guidance is in the chapter just prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit. The true prophets also gave signs specifically to confirm guidance such as the sun going backwards and a virgin was going to be with child.
God is even more explicit concerning the negative "how to's" and the consequences of practicing them. One such list is from Deut 18:
"There shall not be found among you... one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD."
Old Testament scholar Eugene H. Merrill gives a general definition of divination: “The phrase ‘practicers of divination’ refers generally to the whole complex of means of gaining insight from the gods regardless of any particular technique.” Various techniques were developed to gain this knowledge. The concept itself is forbidden - the techniques are as varied as the cultures and imagination of the people themselves. They are not some "truth" Satan corrupted that we can go back and claim for the kingdom. I have included a URL below and a partial list of some specific techniques.
I don't believe that scriptures state that techniques are neutral anymore than I believe that spiritual power is neutral. There is a real unholy Satan and a Holy Spirit. People that experience "God" or spiritual power through extra-biblical techniques are experiencing spirits "freestyle" in rebellion to Him. People who use techniques to control or manipulate spiritual power are practicing magic, and this does happen in churches in the name of God by sincere people who justify it as you do. I am not against techniques to manage spiritual power because they are New Age. I am against them because the Bible forbids them in extremely strong language. Those that practice them are rebelling against God and those who refuse to repent from their practices God has a special place for them.
“But for the...unbelieving ... and sorcerers and idolaters ...their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
http://skepdic.com/divinati.html
Abreviated short-list of some forms of divination
aeluromancy (dropping wheatcakes in water and interpreting the result)
aeromancy (divination by examining what the air does to certain things)
alectoromancy or alectryomancy (divination by a cock: grains of wheat are placed on letters and the cock "spells" the message by selecting grains)
alphitomancy (dropping barleycakes in water and interpreting the result)
anthropomancy (divination by interpreting the organs of newly sacrificed humans)
astragalomancy or astragyromancy (using knucklebones marked with letters of the alphabet)
astrology
axinomancy (divination by the hatchet: interpreting the quiver when whacked into a table)
belomancy (divination by arrows)
bronchiomancy (divination by studying the lungs of sacrificed white llamas)
capnomancy (divination by the smoke of an altar or sacrificial incense)
cartomancy
catoptromancy or crystallomancy (using mirrors or lenses)
cephalomancy (divination by a donkey's head)
chiromancy (palmistry)
cleidomancy (divination by interpreting the movements of a key suspended by a thread from the nail of the third finger on a young virgin's hand while one of the Psalms was recited)
coscinomancy (divination by a balanced sieve)
cromniomancy (divination by onions)
dactylomancy (divination by means of rings put on the fingernails or the number of whorls and loops on the fingers)
daphnomancy (divination using the laurel branch: how did it crackle when burned?)
dowsing
extispicy (divination by examining entrails)
fractomancy (interpreting the structures of fractal geometric patterns)
geomancy
gyromancy (divination by walking around a circle of letters until dizzy and one falls down on the letters or in the direction to take)
haruspicy (inspecting the entrails of slaughtered animals)
hydromancy (divination by examining what certain things do in water or when taken out of water, such as coffee grounds or tea leaves); hydatoscopy (if rainwater is used); pegomancy (if spring-water is used)
hepatoscopy or hepatomancy (divination by examining the liver of sacrificed animals)
kephalonomancy (burning carbon on the head of an ass while reciting the names of suspected criminals; if you're guilty, a crackling sound will be heard when your name is spoken)
lampadomancy (interpreting the movements of the flame of a lamp)
libanomancy (interpreting the smoke of incense)
lithomancy (divination using precious stones)
lecanomancy (dropping precious stones into water and listening for whistles)
margaritomancy (divination by the pearl: if it jumps in the pot when a person is named, then he is the thief!)
metoposcopy (interpreting frontal wrinkles)
molybdomancy (divination by melted lead: interpreting its noises and hisses when dropped into water)
myrmomancy (divination by watching ants eating)
necromancy (communicating with spirits of the dead to predict the future)
oinomancy (divination by wine)
omphalomancy (interpretation of the belly button)
oneiromancy (interpretation of dreams)
onychomancy (interpreting the reflection of sun rays off fingernails)
ornithomancy or orniscopy (interpreting the flights of birds)
ovomancy or oomancy or ooscopy (breaking eggs into a container of water and interpreting the shape of the egg white)
papyromancy (divination by folding paper)
pyromancy or pyroscopy (divination by fire)
rhabdomancy (using the divining rod or magic wand)
rhapsodmancy (divination by a line in a sacred book that strikes the eye when the book is opened after the diviner prays, meditates or invokes the help of spirits)
scapulamancy
scrying
sideromancy (interpreting straws thrown on a red-hot iron)
skatharomancy (interpreting the tracks of a beetle crawling over the grave of a murder victim)
splanchnomancy (reading cut sections of a goat liver)
stichomancy
tasseography (reading tea leaves)
tiromancy (interpreting the holes or mold in cheese)
urim v'tumim (reading sacred stones attached to
the breastplate of the high priest in ancient Judaism)
uromancy (divination by reading bubbles made by urinating in a pot)
Spen Lake
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/14/2004 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | .
O-B-S-E-S-S-I-O-N:
quote:
Spen wrote:
http://skepdic.com/divinati.html
Abreviated short-list of some forms of divination
aeluromancy (dropping wheatcakes in water and interpreting the result)
aeromancy (divination by examining what the air does to certain things)
alectoromancy or alectryomancy (divination by a cock: grains of wheat are placed on letters and the cock "spells" the message by selecting grains)
alphitomancy (dropping barleycakes in water and interpreting the result)
anthropomancy (divination by interpreting the organs of newly sacrificed humans)
astragalomancy or astragyromancy (using knucklebones marked with letters of the alphabet)
astrology
axinomancy (divination by the hatchet: interpreting the quiver when whacked into a table)
belomancy (divination by arrows)
bronchiomancy (divination by studying the lungs of sacrificed white llamas)
capnomancy (divination by the smoke of an altar or sacrificial incense)
cartomancy
catoptromancy or crystallomancy (using mirrors or lenses)
cephalomancy (divination by a donkey's head)
chiromancy (palmistry)
cleidomancy (divination by interpreting the movements of a key suspended by a thread from the nail of the third finger on a young virgin's hand while one of the Psalms was recited)
coscinomancy (divination by a balanced sieve)
cromniomancy (divination by onions)
dactylomancy (divination by means of rings put on the fingernails or the number of whorls and loops on the fingers)
daphnomancy (divination using the laurel branch: how did it crackle when burned?)
dowsing
extispicy (divination by examining entrails)
fractomancy (interpreting the structures of fractal geometric patterns)
geomancy
gyromancy (divination by walking around a circle of letters until dizzy and one falls down on the letters or in the direction to take)
haruspicy (inspecting the entrails of slaughtered animals)
hydromancy (divination by examining what certain things do in water or when taken out of water, such as coffee grounds or tea leaves); hydatoscopy (if rainwater is used); pegomancy (if spring-water is used)
hepatoscopy or hepatomancy (divination by examining the liver of sacrificed animals)
kephalonomancy (burning carbon on the head of an ass while reciting the names of suspected criminals; if you're guilty, a crackling sound will be heard when your name is spoken)
lampadomancy (interpreting the movements of the flame of a lamp)
libanomancy (interpreting the smoke of incense)
lithomancy (divination using precious stones)
lecanomancy (dropping precious stones into water and listening for whistles)
margaritomancy (divination by the pearl: if it jumps in the pot when a person is named, then he is the thief!)
metoposcopy (interpreting frontal wrinkles)
molybdomancy (divination by melted lead: interpreting its noises and hisses when dropped into water)
myrmomancy (divination by watching ants eating)
necromancy (communicating with spirits of the dead to predict the future)
oinomancy (divination by wine)
omphalomancy (interpretation of the belly button)
oneiromancy (interpretation of dreams)
onychomancy (interpreting the reflection of sun rays off fingernails)
ornithomancy or orniscopy (interpreting the flights of birds)
ovomancy or oomancy or ooscopy (breaking eggs into a container of water and interpreting the shape of the egg white)
papyromancy (divination by folding paper)
pyromancy or pyroscopy (divination by fire)
rhabdomancy (using the divining rod or magic wand)
rhapsodmancy (divination by a line in a sacred book that strikes the eye when the book is opened after the diviner prays, meditates or invokes the help of spirits)
scapulamancy
scrying
sideromancy (interpreting straws thrown on a red-hot iron)
skatharomancy (interpreting the tracks of a beetle crawling over the grave of a murder victim)
splanchnomancy (reading cut sections of a goat liver)
stichomancy
tasseography (reading tea leaves)
tiromancy (interpreting the holes or mold in cheese)
urim v'tumim (reading sacred stones attached to
the breastplate of the high priest in ancient Judaism)
uromancy (divination by reading bubbles made by urinating in a pot)
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/14/2004 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not justifying techniques, just pointing out that occult techniques WORK in simlar ways.
God does some pretty wierd stuff in the Bible: Teleporting, levitation, out-of-body experiences, etc.
My POINT still stands, judge by fruit only.
Christianity is about relationship with God. Technique of any sort is bordering on the Occult, though the issue with the occult is ABUSE (= use without divine permission) of spiritual power. Prophetic people can have simliar experiences, though if they are using techniques rather than the invitation of the Father to "come up here" I'd be suspicious.
The danger is assuming that its all wrong because it looks occult.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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