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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 4:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ok, something that's been troubling me a bit today.
I came across a page on the apologetics index on the latter rain movement, and in particular william branham (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l06.html) they seem to be implying in the series that he has some degree of influence in fathering the modern charismatic movement. I also found another article at http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain3.htm which seemed a bit more distrubing, particularly the stuff about the 'angel' it seems to be bordering on the occult to me...and it worries me that the church which I know and love might have rather dodgy influences in its history...(I'm a charismatic anglican in England)
Any thoughts? | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | it also bothers me a bit that the line between the work of the holy spirit and the occult seems so thin - how does one discern? | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Argh, it seems that wherever I go on the web, I seem to find people wanting to link charismatic manifestations, leaders, gifts, meetings etc. either to cultic activity, tribal religions, hinduism etc. to mass hysteria and manipulation, to the demonic, to heresy, to various forms of sin.
Where is the more balanced picture | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/15/2004 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | I have yet to see any solid evidence of Branham's dodgy teaching. A lot of people report this, but few reference any of it. I have listened to many of Branhams sermons, and have yet to hear any of the so-called dodgy bits.
As for the occult - what do you think it is. If you define the occult as making use of Spiritual power annd havinng spiritual experiences, then much of the Bible is in error. Ezekiel levitated, Philip and Ezekiel were transported, lots of people saw angels, had dreams (even Paul). The issue is how to judge.
Jesus said: "By their fruits..."
There has been a lot of discussion on this board on this issue. Most Christians don't like it as they don't have any valid experience to draw from, and its easier to simply lump it all together and reject the lot. That is fatal. How would these modern "thinkers" have dealt with Isaiah, who went around naked for 2 years, or Ezekiel, who lay on his side playing toy soldiers - at God's command.
Fruit cannot simply be the miraculous, as Jesus warned of false Prophets doing miracles, but certainly didn't ever imply that miracles were wrong or would cease. He said on 3 occasions: "If you don't beleive my words believe the miracles."
Fruit has to be producing Righteouness, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.
There is also an issue of maturity. We do not have the maturity in the miraculous or prophetic that we see inn the Bible (yet), though many critics seem to expect that Prophets wake up one morning 100% mature. Of course , they have no experience with the prophetic so they're largely working from theory.
I know people who see angels regularly - it happens. | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/15/2004 10:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Like I said Spen, I haven't heard such teaching from Primary sources, only reports of them. I 've only listened to a few of Branham's recorded sermons so far.
I've heard the Teacher/Prophet thing before, and it makes sense. Branham wasn't a teacher.
Also, to be fair to Branham, as you've pointed out he was greatly used by God. I think to demand accuracy in ALL doctrine, etc, is in error. though we should aim for that, and be accountable to others for correction, rebuke, etc, NONE of us have it all correct. To judge an entire ministry on errors is to "throw out the baby with the bathwater".
Similarly, to judge Bob Jones (for example) on the 35% he "misses", is to ignore the 65% he hits. Even Biblical prophets were not held to 100% accuracy in every word - it was understood that acceptance and faith were part of the equation (eg. Agabus to Paul).
We need a more realistic picture of where we are currently. Remember, the Laodiceans "did not realise" their condition. Again, its unfair to expect a prophetic person to just begin ministry with everything perfect. This gift has been largely disfunctional for nearly 2000 years (though in each age of church history there were prophets, miracles,etc), and there are no records of what was taught in the Biblical Schools of the Prophets.
Branham was a great man of God. Maybe he did go beyond his gifting. Maybe what he wanted to say wasn't said the way he meant. Everyone who has real heavenly experiences struggles to describe it (eg. Paul) - its just too beyond our experiences and language to accuratley describe.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/15/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
Like I said Spen, I haven't heard such teaching from Primary sources, only reports of them. I 've only listened to a few of Branham's recorded sermons so far.
I've heard the Teacher/Prophet thing before, and it makes sense. Branham wasn't a teacher.
Also, to be fair to Branham, as you've pointed out he was greatly used by God. I think to demand accuracy in ALL doctrine, etc, is in error. though we should aim for that, and be accountable to others for correction, rebuke, etc, NONE of us have it all correct. To judge an entire ministry on errors is to "throw out the baby with the bathwater".
Similarly, to judge Bob Jones (for example) on the 35% he "misses", is to ignore the 65% he hits. Even Biblical prophets were not held to 100% accuracy in every word - it was understood that acceptance and faith were part of the equation (eg. Agabus to Paul).
We need a more realistic picture of where we are currently. Remember, the Laodiceans "did not realise" their condition. Again, its unfair to expect a prophetic person to just begin ministry with everything perfect. This gift has been largely disfunctional for nearly 2000 years (though in each age of church history there were prophets, miracles,etc), and there are no records of what was taught in the Biblical Schools of the Prophets.
Branham was a great man of God. Maybe he did go beyond his gifting. Maybe what he wanted to say wasn't said the way he meant. Everyone who has real heavenly experiences struggles to describe it (eg. Paul) - its just too beyond our experiences and language to accuratley describe.
Paul D
Branham was not "a man of God." He was basicallly a pious man, so is the Dali Lama. I guess one could say that in as much as the Dali Lama was a man of God, so was Branham. I don't believe that Branham was following God as his fruits found in his beliefs and teachings were sorely defective. He claimed to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation. He lied. His body was not raised and you can view his tomb to this day. His defective teachigs are with us to this day, seducing another generation to his ideas and beliefs.
I understand you disagree with me, but Branham isn't a man that I would go and hear. If I went to Branham's meeting what would I be seeking, a sign? If so, then Jesus had words for those who sought signs. I also believed that I could go and receive supernatural ministry from anybody offering supernatural power in Jesus' name. I think that scriptures warn us about following men coming in His name claiming to be "the anointed." We are warned that they will seduce many. You have said we need to do miracles because Jesus said "beleive the miracles." Jesus meant to believe His miracles. Anti-christ also seduces with miracles (they are just so damned effective damning those looking for them).
He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast.
Spen Lake
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm not bothered about the guy having perfect doctrine that much, I can accept that he can be like that and God can use him, it's stuff like quote:
While conducting healing services Branham would often fall into a trance during which his angel would work through him. Asked once if the healings were done by the Holy Spirit, Branham replied, "No, my angel does it." (Kurt Koch, 'Occult Bondage and Deliverance', p.50, 1972)
that bothers me, if he were talking about the holy spirit doing all this stuff that would be fine, and if he got a bit gnostic or something here and there well, I can cope, but I'm not so sure about this. Maybe have a read through the links I put, and see what you make of the stuff written there. | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | | hmm, and the anti trinity stuff gets at me a bit too (which http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/apostateoccultprophets.htm seems to imply was taught him by his angel) and some of the revelations about the seven seals etc. at http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain4.htm I really don't know what to make of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/15/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Angels are a difficult topic. The actual mechanism of healing is also not well understood.
Angels help us, and minister to us, and they have different tasks.
Whether it is the Holy Spirit working through and Angel, or otherwise, we are never told, and must therefore infer. Which makes it very difficult to be dogmatic about such things.
The bottom line was: God was given glory for the healings. Jesus Christ was professed as Lord (has to be the Holy spirit).
Paul D
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/15/2004 3:30 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think it would be easy to tell Satan disguising himself as an angel of light from a real angel of light by "impressions" or feeling based discernment. It seems to me the key is the message. Even the term angel means messenger. We don't judge wht message based upon our "feelings" regarding the messenger. We look to the message to distinguish the messenger. This is true not only of angels but of all the "false" teachers, prophets, apostles, and brethren,
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
The true is often packaged in ways that don't "feel" special. The true messengers with the message of truth are often:
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
He was despised and forsaken of men,
Spen Lake
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 10:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
Angels are a difficult topic. The actual mechanism of healing is also not well understood.
Angels help us, and minister to us, and they have different tasks.
Whether it is the Holy Spirit working through and Angel, or otherwise, we are never told, and must therefore infer. Which makes it very difficult to be dogmatic about such things.
The bottom line was: God was given glory for the healings. Jesus Christ was professed as Lord (has to be the Holy spirit).
Paul D
Hmm, ok, maybe you're right. And it does seem that he equates this angel to a degree with the holy spirit even if he refuses to do so by name - he seems to link it to the angel of the Lord and one of the pages says he thought the angel was Jesus...so maybe it's just as a result of his modalism that he makes those views known.
one of the pages does say
quote:
For what its worth, Branham stands as an enigma. It can seem unclear at ceratin times whether it was God operating or not. When looking at the overall teaching it becomes hardly favorable to the claims made by a man who was led by an angel (who he thought was Jesus) into so much false doctrine.
I guess one of the questions has to be to what extent did the angel lead him into the dodgy doctrine | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/15/2004 10:46 PM (GMT -6) | | ooh, another quite interesting quote from the apologetics index
quote:
Another evidence is the fact that neither Edwards nor Branham were able to perform cures when faced with born-again Christians who had committed themselves to the protection of Christ. In the case of Branham, I have experienced this myself. When he spoke in Karlsruhe and Lausanne, there were several believers among the audience -- including myself -- who prayed along these lines: "Lord, if this man's powers are from You, then bless and use him, but if the healing gifts are not from You, then hinder him." The result? On both occasions Branham said from the platform, "There are disturbing powers here. I can do nothing."
hmmm | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/15/2004 11:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Another evidence is the fact that neither Edwards nor Branham were able to perform cures when faced with born-again Christians who had committed themselves to the protection of Christ. In the case of Branham, I have experienced this myself. When he spoke in Karlsruhe and Lausanne, there were several believers among the audience -- including myself -- who prayed along these lines: "Lord, if this man's powers are from You, then bless and use him, but if the healing gifts are not from You, then hinder him." The result? On both occasions Branham said from the platform, "There are disturbing powers here. I can do nothing."
Assuming of course that this guy wasn't himself deceived about the power he was accessing..........
Again, I have friends who see miracles all the time. They taught us that faith is very much a part of the process. Jesus himself couldn't do anything in Nazareth, where they refused to believe.
Its hard enough for Westerners who are desperate to be healed to have faith, but those like the gentleman above who are already doubting haven't a hope, unless God does something sovereign. Generally, He will not override our prejudices (exceptions are Damascus road etc).
Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, not the doubt as to whether the minister is true. I wonder if this man didn't have more faith in the emeny's ability to "slime" him than in God's ability and willingness to heal him. Jesus talked about "believe and not doubt.." It's hard when our experience is so missing.
Like the epileptics father, we need to pray: "Lord, help my unbelief."
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/16/2004 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
quote:
Another evidence is the fact that neither Edwards nor Branham were able to perform cures when faced with born-again Christians who had committed themselves to the protection of Christ. In the case of Branham, I have experienced this myself. When he spoke in Karlsruhe and Lausanne, there were several believers among the audience -- including myself -- who prayed along these lines: "Lord, if this man's powers are from You, then bless and use him, but if the healing gifts are not from You, then hinder him." The result? On both occasions Branham said from the platform, "There are disturbing powers here. I can do nothing."
Assuming of course that this guy wasn't himself deceived about the power he was accessing..........
I find it hard to believe that a normal christian person going along to an event and praying for the protection of Jesus would be accessing some kind of demonic power...I could rationalise the situation in a number of ways; I could perhaps note some sort of spirit of opposition involved in those attending, but the prayer presented there doesn't look much like one of opposition, I could say that the two aren't connected in any way, that it was just coincidence, I could say that the quote on the webpage is missing some sort of context somewhere that I'm missing. I don't know. It disturbs me. I'm not anti miracles etc. myself, there are those whose ministry I hugely respect, John Wimber for example, but examples like this serve to confuse things considerably, especially given the way in which all these leaders seem to be linked in some way. | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/16/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek (I am Australian!). I think the faith issue was more likely the important factor.
Branham didn't get fazed by witches in his meetings, so I can't think that any occult stuff was the problem. Whatever he meant by "disturbing powers" we'll never know. I don't think its wise to draw any conclusions from what could be sheer coincidence where this gentleman is concerned.
The faith issue is however a "biggie". We doubt too easily, which we know from the Bible is a barrier to receiving healing from the Lord.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/17/2004 4:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek (I am Australian!). I think the faith issue was more likely the important factor.
Branham didn't get fazed by witches in his meetings, so I can't think that any occult stuff was the problem.
surely if his stuff was occult in the first place then you'd expect him not to be fazed by witches but to have issues with Christians...
quote:
Whatever he meant by "disturbing powers" we'll never know. I don't think its wise to draw any conclusions from what could be sheer coincidence where this gentleman is concerned.
maybe
quote:
The faith issue is however a "biggie". We doubt too easily, which we know from the Bible is a barrier to receiving healing from the Lord.
Paul D
Not sure that the issue is doubt so much as unwilligness to believe | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/17/2004 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | How could "occult" power result in so much fruit? Jesus himself said to John's disciples that the evidence of who he was was the miraculous.
A house divided cannot stand. Many, many people were saved, healed and delivered - and God given the Glory - during the '50's revival. The case you're making is shaky at best.
You appear to be taking the position that lack of doctrinal "perfection" = evidence of occult involvement. Had any experience with the occult - its not that hard to discern? We do a reachout at the Psychic Expo in Adelaide each year - praying for the sick, witnessing to any who'll listen.
Most people there are fakes! The ones with a true (perverted) gift are easy to discern. When you walk past their booths, the holy Spirit rises up in you and goes "Yuck" (its a little hard to actually describe the sensation).
Jesus never gave doctrinal orthodoxy as evidence of true/false, and we cannot use it either, as we may well be the ones who are wrong.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/17/2004 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
How could "occult" power result in so much fruit? Jesus himself said to John's disciples that the evidence of who he was was the miraculous.
A house divided cannot stand. Many, many people were saved, healed and delivered - and God given the Glory - during the '50's revival. The case you're making is shaky at best.
You appear to be taking the position that lack of doctrinal "perfection" = evidence of occult involvement. Had any experience with the occult - its not that hard to discern? We do a reachout at the Psychic Expo in Adelaide each year - praying for the sick, witnessing to any who'll listen.
Most people there are fakes! The ones with a true (perverted) gift are easy to discern. When you walk past their booths, the holy Spirit rises up in you and goes "Yuck" (its a little hard to actually describe the sensation).
Jesus never gave doctrinal orthodoxy as evidence of true/false, and we cannot use it either, as we may well be the ones who are wrong.
Paul D
Believe in Jesus' signs as to what message is true. Jesus told us to believe in the signs that He did, and the one sign that He promised to those that pursued them is the same one we look to and believe in - His resurrection. This sign has been seen and witnessed to by credible men. There are other signs encouraging us to believe because of them.
he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast
And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
If discernment is a feeling, as you claim, "Most people there are fakes! The ones with a true (perverted) gift are easy to discern. When you walk past their booths, the holy Spirit rises up in you and goes "Yuck" (its a little hard to actually describe the sensation)." Is the love of the truth a "feeling" as well? If the love of the truth is based upon a feeling, then maybe my marriage and loving my wife is based upon feelings...
I am shocked by your comment, "Jesus never gave doctrinal orthodoxy as evidence of true/false, and we cannot use it either, as we may well be the ones who are wrong." This is simply not true in scriptures. The "precepts of men" such as the credibility test of John Paul Jackson is exactly what is being addressed. Men who claim that homosexual alcoholics are "major prophetic voices" for God is what is being addressed. I don't understand how you can believe this is true.
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. ‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/17/2004 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Believe in Jesus' signs as to what message is true. Jesus told us to believe in the signs that He did, and the one sign that He promised to those that pursued them is the same one we look to and believe in - His resurrection. [/quote/
Absolutely
quote:
he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast
Key here is "it was given him to perform". God still restricts which signs he is allowed to perform. This doesn't mean he can do all signs. It doesn mean we need to learn to be discerning about judging signs, etc.
quote:
If discernment is a feeling, as you claim, "Most people there are fakes! The ones with a true (perverted) gift are easy to discern. When you walk past their booths, the holy Spirit rises up in you and goes "Yuck" (its a little hard to actually describe the sensation)." Is the love of the truth a "feeling" as well? If the love of the truth is based upon a feeling, then maybe my marriage and loving my wife is based upon feelings...
Any marriage based on feelings is in trouble. This has nothing to do with the ability to sense/discern things. Your comment is pure sledging. There is ample evidence from all who have actually experienced spiritual power that it can be "felt" by the physical body. In the sense I was using it, its the closest word to describe something. Just 'cause you can't do it, doesn't mean no-one can.
quote:
I am shocked by your comment, "Jesus never gave doctrinal orthodoxy as evidence of true/false, and we cannot use it either, as we may well be the ones who are wrong." This is simply not true in scriptures. The "precepts of men" such as the credibility test of John Paul Jackson is exactly what is being addressed. Men who claim that homosexual alcoholics are "major prophetic voices" for God is what is being addressed. I don't understand how you can believe this is true.
Jesus absolutely caned all the "orthodox" theologians of his time. Remember the Pharisees and Sadducees? They completely missed the point. they judged the Son of God as being satanic because they didn't want to believe God would work that way, and more relevent, THEY COULDN"T SEE IT IN THE BIBLE!!!!! They looked at the "facts" of what they could see and completely mis-read it, even though their Bible clearly stated Isaiah 53 et. al.
[quote] ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. ‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Are you accusing John Paul of such things? Even Paul Cain (who has sinned in immorality) has not "taught" others that this is right before God. Have you evidence of John Paul's followers committing "acts of immorality"?
How is the truth that god speaks today a "stumbling block"? How is trying to teach others to know God's voice and seek Him for a closer walk a "stumbling block"? All of these men advocate an intimate relationship of love with Jesus.
The bottom line is that you are lumping all these prophetic leaders together and attacking all of them on the basis of Paul Cain's fall. You are accusing them of teaching falsity (based on your own interpretation of the Bible). You are pulling out verses specifically applied to practitioners of the occult and applying them to these men.
Dreams, visions, etc are IN the Bible. God doesn't change - he still does all the things he ever did. We need to learn how to listen and discern. The Bible is not a limiting book - there is much (according to the writer of Hebrews) that didn't make it in to the Bible that is useful to know once we get through the basics.
The Bible does contain the basics of how to deal with these things. By their Fruit is the ONLY way Jesus gave us to judge.
Was Ezekiel occult??? He levitated and was invoved in out-of-body experiences. His visions were as weird as anything Bob Jones sees.
How about Paul? He changed his plans because of a dream, Visited heaven, was converted by revelation only. He was present "in spirit" when people hundreds of kilometers away were worshipping (astral travel???).
Philip was teleported. Steven saw into heaven (and also got "stoned" for talking about it).
Isaiah \turned the sun back in the sky.
How about Daniel, who was trained in the mysteries of the babylonians? How occult was that?
Or Moses, who was trained in ALL the wisdom of the Egyptians. Joseph, married the daughter of a pagan priest.
And of course King David fell sexually. Strangely, when he repented, he was restored and still able to minister to God's people. Why is this impossible for Paul Cain, if and when he is brought to repentance? Even worse, God allowed David to continue as King whilst in sin before it was exposed.
Come on, get a grip. Be fair to men who are in process of learning, and allow them to make honest mistakes, and learn from them.
Paul D
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/17/2004 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul: Are you accusing John Paul of such things? Even Paul Cain (who has sinned in immorality) has not "taught" others that this is right before God. Have you evidence of John Paul's followers committing "acts of immorality"?
Spen: I am not accusing John Paul Jackson of anything except teachings that are man's words claiming to be God's. All I was using the scriptures to show is that your comment, "Jesus never gave doctrinal orthodoxy as evidence of true/false, and we cannot use it either, as we may well be the ones who are wrong," is inconsistent with the passages I cited. Doctrine means "teaching" and it seems to figure to be very important to Jesus, to such an extent that He was willing to damn those who held to the teachings of the Nicolaitans and Balaam.
Paul: All of these men advocate an intimate relationship of love with Jesus.
Spen: The Jesus that they "confess" and have an intimate relationship with is a Jesus made up of their own words, impressions, and dreams - not the one that we find witnessed to by the men who saw Him in the flesh. I find it weak and suspect. This is the kind of Jesus Branham confessed.
Paul: The bottom line is that you are lumping all these prophetic leaders together and attacking all of them on the basis of Paul Cain's fall. You are accusing them of teaching falsity (based on your own interpretation of the Bible). You are pulling out verses specifically applied to practitioners of the occult and applying them to these men.
Spen: I am not accusing all of these men as guilty of immorality as Paul Cain, gratefully. You are right, however, that I am accusing them all of being false prophets or at least promoting defective teachings regarding the authority of their modern prophets. I am attempting to do that by building a case in the scriptures. To the extent that the interpretation I have offered are true, then it is God Himself who is condemning them. I acknowledge that my interpretations may be feeble and yours may be correct. I believe, however, that the arguments that I have given are stronger than the ones you have presented. In addition to the scriptures, in this area I have a depth of experience that is sufficient to have witnessed first hand the costs and abuses that this teaching has brought upon the church. If I have strong feelings they are not because of naivety but experience. Bobby Conner has prophesied over my children I know the men you speak of better than you do.
Paul: Dreams, visions, etc are IN the Bible. God doesn't change - he still does all the things he ever did. We need to learn how to listen and discern. The Bible is not a limiting book - there is much (according to the writer of Hebrews) that didn't make it in to the Bible that is useful to know once we get through the basics.
Spen: I agree with you that dreams are in the Bible. Joseph and Daniel never opened up a school to provide Israel with a continuing supply of certified dream interpreters. I don't see the curriculem they wrote in the written Word. We had to wait for John Paul Jackson (after he had brought havoc to the Vineyard church in Aurora, CO - now that is fruit) to bring us the hidden truths so that God can finally speak to us as He has been longing to. Doesn't this raise any questions in your mind? You spent 2 weeks bringing this teaching to ones you loved and are responsible for before God. What if, just perhaps, you were wrong? God will hold you responsible for your teachings as he did the churches in Rev 2 - regardless of whether you believe He will.
Paul: Was Ezekiel occult??? He levitated and was invoved in out-of-body experiences. His visions were as weird as anything Bob Jones sees.
Spen: Where does Ezekiel or Daniel or Joseph pray to have dreams so that they could hear and experience God? All that Ezekiel said you can believe as the very word of God Himself. If you read the book you won't have to worry about the fatal 35%. It is not a case of eating the cherries and spitting out the pits. It is more like eating the brownies and spitting our the fatal ex-lax that was mixed in. Jesus called false teaching "leaven" not cherry pits. When you can eat bread and spit out the leaven, then go and get fed by these men.
Paul: How about Paul? He changed his plans because of a dream, Visited heaven, was converted by revelation only. He was present "in spirit" when people hundreds of kilometers away were worshipping (astral travel???). Philip was teleported. Steven saw into heaven (and also got "stoned" for talking about it). Isaiah \turned the sun back in the sky. How about Daniel, who was trained in the mysteries of the babylonians? How occult was that? Or Moses, who was trained in ALL the wisdom of the Egyptians. Joseph, married the daughter of a pagan priest.
Spen: Show me where he teaches us that that is where we are to search for God. Where does he teach me the principles of astro projection? Where does He pray for dreams and give us the Godly teaching on how to interpret them? Where can I learn to turn back the sun? What methods and teachings did Daniel have when all the best of Babyon (who presumeably wrote the texts) could do nothing? Daniel and his friends chose not to defile themselves with the things of Babyon and almost paid with their lives ceveral times. I cannot find your concepts nor those in this movement in scriptures.
Paul: And of course King David fell sexually. Strangely, when he repented, he was restored and still able to minister to God's people. Why is this impossible for Paul Cain, if and when he is brought to repentance? Even worse, God allowed David to continue as King whilst in sin before it was exposed.
Spen: There were many wicked kings and civil rulers, even occultists like Saul and Manassa. I challenge you to find me the Psalm David wrote while he was a murdering adulterer plotting the death of righteous Urriah. Show me the wonderful and anointed prophesies that David wrote during this time. Contrast David's words against those that claim an alcoholic homosexual is a major porphetic voice of God.
When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long.
For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.
Spen Lake
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 11/17/2004 2:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | pdaviesoz - thanks for what you've written, your answers have been extremely helpful, not sure if I have any more questions right now | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/17/2004 10:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The Jesus that they "confess" and have an intimate relationship with is a Jesus made up of their own words, impressions, and dreams - not the one that we find witnessed to by the men who saw Him in the flesh. I find it weak and suspect. This is the kind of Jesus Branham confessed.
Spen, again, this is YOUR own interpretation of both their teaching and the Bible. I have yet to hear them teach anything that is contradicted by the Gospels.
You've stated twice that John Paul left chaos in a particular Vineyard church. This could be due to lots of things, not necessarily the fault of the visiting speaker. It certainly is NOT evidence there was anything wrong with the teaching. There were pastors there, surely? And those who heard? Teachings like this can always cause chaos if not applied and followed-up carefully, and even then there are those who will use them to create havoc.
Again, it doesn't necessarily mean there was a problem with John Paul. Based on that argument Jesus was surely false - he left the entire Jewish community in chaos, shattered their most dearly-held doctrinal understandings, and seet up a revolution that succeeded in supplanting the original.
You have to ask yourself in fairness what you are trying to build through your stance. What positives are being passed on? How is the body of Christ being built up? Too much damage has been done by various christians "defending the faith" (or their own version of it). Even Gamaliel warned: "If God is in it, nothing we do will have an effect, and we could be contending against God" (paraphrase mine).
Paul Cain blew it! Others are pioneering the restoration of an Office we haven't seen much of for nearly 2000 years. We need to allow time for maturity to develop, and be gracious when errors are made.
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