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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/22/2004 1:16 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Most of John Paul's Dream training consists of:
*Art of Hearing God - Dealing with Sin and worldliness issues that are a barrier to receiving revelation.
* Symbology - Dreams are metaphoric. The symbols the Lord uses to convey a message need interpreting. Some types of symbols tend to indicate particular things. eg. Various stones, colours mentioned in the Bible. Repeated dreams = "matter is firmly decided" (Joseph to Pharoah).
Accepting that the Bible does not give a detailed description anywhere about this topic, though it DOES deal with dreams as serious and valid, elements of the training are extra-Biblical, from the experiences of John Paul et. al. Consistency with scripture is vital.
John Paul also says that studying the passages where dreams are interpreted in the Bible allows the Holy Spirit to plant the principles into your spirit.
Spen, you seem to be looking for a blow-by-blow description of how to do it. It doesn't exist in scripture. All interpretation flows out of relationship with the Lord through the Holy Spirit. That does not mean its wrong to share things the Lord has taught an individual about a particular topic that will help them along.
As for "spoke to us through His Son...", the Bible never implies anywhere that now we have the Gospels God won't speak to us himself anymore. All true revelation comes via the Holy Spirit.
Paul D
Jackson's claim that he has "biblical" ways of interpreting dreams is abusive and not scriptural. Take the following phrase:
"* Symbology - Dreams are metaphoric. The symbols the Lord uses to convey a message need interpreting. Some types of symbols tend to indicate particular things. eg. Various stones, colours mentioned in the Bible. Repeated dreams = "matter is firmly decided" (Joseph to Pharoah)."
If we apply this to Amber's dreams and attempt to use Jackson's tools to descern what God is saying through dreams (and remember the Bible also recounts dreams that God gave that were very disturbing), what do we have? The "teachings" of Jackson, who is sincere and kind, could inflict needless pain and damage on Jo-Anne's daughter. This is the kind of abuse and destruction that Jackson's teachings brought to the church in Aurora, CO. There is no biblical example of anyone teaching others HOW to interpret dreams. There is no school and no certification because we were not commanded to do this. This is not confessing Jesus coming in the flesh but something else, something destructive to anybody who would actually believe and submit to it.
This type of teaching leaves destruction in its wake, not "new levels of revelation" that are necessary to mature and grow in God. It is a false promise that only brings confusion instead of growing faith in the power of the gospel to fogive sins and protect us.
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/22/2004 9:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Most of John Paul's Dream training consists of:
*Art of Hearing God - Dealing with Sin and worldliness issues that are a barrier to receiving revelation.
* Symbology - Dreams are metaphoric. The symbols the Lord uses to convey a message need interpreting. Some types of symbols tend to indicate particular things. eg. Various stones, colours mentioned in the Bible. Repeated dreams = "matter is firmly decided" (Joseph to Pharoah).
Accepting that the Bible does not give a detailed description anywhere about this topic, though it DOES deal with dreams as serious and valid, elements of the training are extra-Biblical, from the experiences of John Paul et. al. Consistency with scripture is vital.
John Paul also says that studying the passages where dreams are interpreted in the Bible allows the Holy Spirit to plant the principles into your spirit.
Spen, you seem to be looking for a blow-by-blow description of how to do it. It doesn't exist in scripture. All interpretation flows out of relationship with the Lord through the Holy Spirit. That does not mean its wrong to share things the Lord has taught an individual about a particular topic that will help them along.
As for "spoke to us through His Son...", the Bible never implies anywhere that now we have the Gospels God won't speak to us himself anymore. All true revelation comes via the Holy Spirit.
Paul D
Jackson's claim that he has "biblical" ways of interpreting dreams is abusive and not scriptural. Take the following phrase:
"* Symbology - Dreams are metaphoric. The symbols the Lord uses to convey a message need interpreting. Some types of symbols tend to indicate particular things. eg. Various stones, colours mentioned in the Bible. Repeated dreams = "matter is firmly decided" (Joseph to Pharoah)."
If we apply this to Amber's dreams and attempt to use Jackson's tools to descern what God is saying through dreams (and remember the Bible also recounts dreams that God gave that were very disturbing), what do we have? The "teachings" of Jackson, who is sincere and kind, could inflict needless pain and damage on Jo-Anne's daughter. This is the kind of abuse and destruction that Jackson's teachings brought to the church in Aurora, CO. There is no biblical example of anyone teaching others HOW to interpret dreams. There is no school and no certification because we were not commanded to do this. This is not confessing Jesus coming in the flesh but something else, something destructive to anybody who would actually believe and submit to it.
This type of teaching leaves destruction in its wake, not "new levels of revelation" that are necessary to mature and grow in God. It is a false promise that only brings confusion instead of growing faith in the power of the gospel to fogive sins and protect us.
But but Spen,
Hi there!
Can you seriously mean that no one today can give a real message from God by using the dream another shares? I allow that this can be screwed up...can you not allow that it can bring great life-saving Truth?
It seems this is about the same argument you bring against the prophets...it can happen you say, but but it isn't happening rightly according to your views.
I read a whole book of dreams and interpretions...I think the man was Cyanamon or something like that. He came into this area very sceptical intil dreaming and interpretation saved His Very Life! He was given a warning about a gunfight in his role as a law-enforcer. It was a premonition. If he'd ignored it he'd likely be dead today! I admit for every help this interpreting brings there may also be an equal amount if confusion or damage...does it follow that we just dump the whole idea in the garbage?
Most of us listen to lots of people and their opinions. It is only wisdom that says be careful and don't make huge decisions without proper consideration and verification!
I would suggest Amber gets input from many sources, both on her dreams as well as her other issues. I know we all have her and her family in our prayers, right?
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/22/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | There are indeed Biblical examples - they were called "the Schools of the Prophets". We don't however, have their curriculum.
Needless pain? Pain is how we grow. God disciplines those he loves - ever been disciplined - it hurts! The reality is we tend not to learn the harder lessons without pain attached.
That said, I have in no way tried to give a comprehensive outline of JPJ's teaching, merely a rough outline, and its absolutley wrong to apply that to a particular instance, and try and build a case for anything. This is why they run courses, so people don't run off half-cocked. THAT is what causes "needless pain".
As long as we are willing to recognise that we are all learning, and no-one has the entire truth yet, few people will take everything spoken as literal truth. Interpretation is NOT translation. Every Chrisitian needs to learn to hear God for themselves, not rely exclusively on those further along in learning themselves.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/22/2004 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
There are indeed Biblical examples - they were called "the Schools of the Prophets". We don't however, have their curriculum.
Needless pain? Pain is how we grow. God disciplines those he loves - ever been disciplined - it hurts! The reality is we tend not to learn the harder lessons without pain attached.
That said, I have in no way tried to give a comprehensive outline of JPJ's teaching, merely a rough outline, and its absolutley wrong to apply that to a particular instance, and try and build a case for anything. This is why they run courses, so people don't run off half-cocked. THAT is what causes "needless pain".
As long as we are willing to recognise that we are all learning, and no-one has the entire truth yet, few people will take everything spoken as literal truth. Interpretation is NOT translation. Every Chrisitian needs to learn to hear God for themselves, not rely exclusively on those further along in learning themselves.
Paul D
Paul,
I think that your comment regarding "the Schools of the Prophets" is interesting. I have heard it used to justify "prophetic training." The problem is that there is not one recorded example of a prophet "graduating" or coming from these schools in the sense that you mean. While we find that prophets like Elisha had servants, they weren't mentoring them for their job, as such.
The one example of this happening, Elijah and Elisha, was very special. God Himself told Elijah to go call Elisha. This was during the time of the school of the prophets that you mention. Elijah went and took Elisha on God's own specific and direct instruction. His successor wasn't a certified graduate from the school. There are no records of the "students" beginning with little miracles and then "growing." In fact, it isn the opposite. Elisha begins with "real miracles" and is never recorded as being wrong at first and then "growing in his prophetic skills."
Their courses ARE "half-cocked" because they are founded on misguided beliefs that John Paul Jackson has learned, somehow, the biblical curriculum of dream interpretation to such an extent that he can provide the church with certified dream interpreters. This is abusive and the "fruits" are destructive and delusion.
We are not "learning" to become better dream interpreters or how to perform more miracles. This is not part of the curriculum. If it was important and necessary, we would find it in scriptures.
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/22/2004 11:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If it was important and necessary, we would find it in scriptures.
So the writer to the Hebrews was a false prophet when he wrote "there is much more I have to say about this" but "you are too immature"?
Again, you seem to think the Bible contains absolutely everything we need to know. This IS NOT BIBLICAL! The Bible only ever claims to contain everything necessary for the SALVATION of those who believe.
I'm already saved. I want to become more like Christ, and know what he meant when he said: "the Kingdom of Heaven is among you." I want to see the rule of heaven manifested on earth where I am, which is why we pray: "let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
When that happened around Jesus, power resulted.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/23/2004 12:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
quote:
If it was important and necessary, we would find it in scriptures.
So the writer to the Hebrews was a false prophet when he wrote "there is much more I have to say about this" but "you are too immature"?
Again, you seem to think the Bible contains absolutely everything we need to know. This IS NOT BIBLICAL! The Bible only ever claims to contain everything necessary for the SALVATION of those who believe.
I'm already saved. I want to become more like Christ, and know what he meant when he said: "the Kingdom of Heaven is among you." I want to see the rule of heaven manifested on earth where I am, which is why we pray: "let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
When that happened around Jesus, power resulted.
Paul D
The writer od Hebrews went on to tell them what they needed to know. Read the commmentaries from variious viewpoints across the spectrum, it is not implying that the Bible doesn't contain all that is necessary. We have this promised to us, eternal life. This is what we hope for and this is what we work out in fear and trembling.
quote:
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
quote:
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
I believe that the Bible does contain all that we need to know for life, even eternal life, and godliness and sanctification unto maturity. I believe that God continues to speak to us subjectively and gives us guidance and wisdom through many ways how and when He sees fit. I also believe that malicious spiritual forces, evil beings that pretend to be "good," also attempt to give us guidance.
The issue of difference between us isn't, "Does God speak?" The issue of disagreement is, "How do we discern?" You have adopted a freestyle and self referential system based upon feelings and having no walls, I am attempting to appeal to an immutable and sure standard.
You continue to be gracious and kind and I appreciate our discussions. God bless you.
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/23/2004 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Contain - possibly. There's more hidden in there than I've yet discovered.
"Spell out" HOW to do things - almost never.
Again, you are attributing more ability to demons to deceive us than to God to speak to us. How can we have a relationship of any intimacy that is limited to "read my book"?
When God says he speaks through various methods, He continues to do so. "I the Lord do not change." Just because in Jesus we have a clearer revelation of the Father's heart does NOT imply that God has ceased to speak in the ways He always has.
If God speaks through dreams, which are metaphorical,or need interpretation, then we need some idea of how to interpret. The Bible gives hints, not guidebooks, so again, experience (with revelation) is valid as a learning/teaching method. This does not, nor is calimed to have, equal weight of recorded scripture.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/23/2004 2:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by pdaviesoz
Contain - possibly. There's more hidden in there than I've yet discovered.
"Spell out" HOW to do things - almost never.
Again, you are attributing more ability to demons to deceive us than to God to speak to us. How can we have a relationship of any intimacy that is limited to "read my book"?
When God says he speaks through various methods, He continues to do so. "I the Lord do not change." Just because in Jesus we have a clearer revelation of the Father's heart does NOT imply that God has ceased to speak in the ways He always has.
If God speaks through dreams, which are metaphorical,or need interpretation, then we need some idea of how to interpret. The Bible gives hints, not guidebooks, so again, experience (with revelation) is valid as a learning/teaching method. This does not, nor is calimed to have, equal weight of recorded scripture.
Paul D
Hey Paul D!
Do you agree maybe with O Chambers: "scripture is more for correcting us when we are heading away from Truth, than for revelation of Truth" (my paraphrase)
I like to use the scenario of needing a new job. What scripture tells me which of 2 good offers to take? Do I not need here the Holy Spirit to guide me in the here and now?
The word of God helps me discern. It, the written word, without wisdom, is useless. The Pharisees had the written word well-studied, and they thought they knew Christ was not the Savior? They even quoted it to Him and thought they were sooo smart and right.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/23/2004 11:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Barry,
I wouldn't entirely agree. "The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy". The entire Bible is prophetic, as well as being history, etc.
However, in the sense of specific, personal prophecy, about day-to-day events, that's not in the Bible.
However, the idea that "we don't need God to speak" about a particular issue because we have (often human) wisdom, is also NOT BIBLICAL. The testimony of the Bible is clear - God honours those who seek him about every issue. He has wisdom to impart to us about every issue. Again, Job 33:14 can be translated as: "God is always speaking, though man may not perceive it."
Fathers love to spend time with and talk with their children. They love it when their kids ask for their advice/help, etc.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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