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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/29/2004 7:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
This is a crucially important point, that God confirms our choices, whether for good or evil--for those who repent and believe, He confirms that choice by sending the HOLY Spirit. And the precise opposite is just as true--God sends an evil spirit to confirm the evil choices of those who refuse the truth, thus compounding their wickedness. I think the important point is that in no case does God do this sort of thing arbitrarily. He gives us what we want--good or evil.
You have taken the most important aspect of salvation out of God's hands and placed it into man's.
God gives us what we want?!
Yeah, if we ask for bread, He won't give us a stone. If we ask for a fish, He doesn't give us a snake. Luke 11:11
Ask and you will receive. John 16:24
quote:
Basically, our choices control God's actions.
Yeah, whatever we bind on earth, will be bound in heaven. Matt 16:19
The scripture you have presented above are spoken to believers, who are lead by holy spirit of God. Would they know what to bind and what to loose if not lead by the spirit?
quote:
If it is because God grants them repentance or they choose to repent, the most important is that they repent.
Good point Spen. Paul rejoiced about the preaching of Christ even though it was preached by some in contention (Phil 1:15-18). I noticed I am on your list of those deluded, does this mean a person must believe in eternal torment in order to not be in delusion?
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 11/29/2004 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Hold on Orphan Child-
I did not claim that believers' choices control God's actions.
O.K. you don't have to, either.
Jesus told some people that whatever they bind on earth would be bound in heaven. He told some people to ask and they would receive.
He didn't mention the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit hadn't even been given yet.
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
refers to "whoever". What they ask for (salvation), would be given.
1 Samuel 8:6 "But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them."
Exodus 4:
10 Then Moses said to the LORD, "Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue."
11 The LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12 "Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and teach you what you are to say."
13 But he said, "Please, Lord, now send the message by whomever You will."
14 Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, "Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.
15 "You are to speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do.
16 "Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him.
17 "You shall take in your hand this staff, with which you shall perform the signs."
of course, God knows best in all situations but He is patient with us and is flexible enough to get things done despite sometimes honoring our requests
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/29/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
I am not certain that these beliefs on eternal torment are "core" or "central," and in as much as you believe in the gospel, it will be a moot point and not something you will have to experience (whatever the "truth" of the matter).
Well said Spen.
yeah, it seems pretty harmless, imho, unless it kills the urgency to evangelize
I didn't say error is harmless, just all error is not core. It is interesting to me to see where you see the danger. Universalism is the opposite side of Hypercalvinistic fatalism. I never thought os it this way before and it is now obvious why it drew such strong reaction here. If one is fatalistic because they believe that election is inevitable regardless of their own choices, or if one is fatalistic because they feel it doesn't matter because we all end up in the same place anyways - the net effect is the same. Thank you for helping understand this.
Actually I began this thread thinking about delusion. As we can never know what "level" of hardness a person is at in their delusion, we are compelled to attempt to present the correction of the gospel and offer freedom. While I personally believe that God does have foreknowledge of who will be saved, I don't have this foreknowledge. And so, I act as if my presenting the gospel matters, because at my perspective it does. God may have foreknowledge but He has determined that my obedience in bringing the gospel is the means He will accomplish it. Thus I live and act as if I have freewill, though I believe that he has ultimate forknowledge but I am not privy to it.
Do you see danger in this as you saw danger in Lock's beliefs?
Spen Lake
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/29/2004 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
This is a crucially important point, that God confirms our choices, whether for good or evil--for those who repent and believe, He confirms that choice by sending the HOLY Spirit. And the precise opposite is just as true--God sends an evil spirit to confirm the evil choices of those who refuse the truth, thus compounding their wickedness. I think the important point is that in no case does God do this sort of thing arbitrarily. He gives us what we want--good or evil.
You have taken the most important aspect of salvation out of God's hands and placed it into man's.
I disagree that our choice is "the most important aspect of salvation." I'm surprised that you, lock, who deny free will would state or imply that free will is the most important aspect of salvation. Our choice is only one of many conditions of our individual salvation, however important it may be.
quote:
Basically, our choices control God's actions.
Ummm, no...God gives us the ability to choose, commands us to do right and shun evil, and then condemns us if we sin and accepts us if we repent and have faith in Him.
John
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/29/2004 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Oh yeah...I meant to say...about Job's statement, it is a very precarious thing to try to build sound doctrine on the statements of Job and his friends. As the ending of the book shows, none of them had God 100% right.
John
It seems to me that the end does tell us what is right. Job attempted to justify himself by condemning God's judgments. This seems to be the issue with Job, not his comments regarding God. God tells Job's friends that they have not spoken of Him what was right as His servant Job had. This means something and it seems to mean that we can take Job's description of God and His attributes as something valuable and true.
Frankly, I am suspicious of this type of comment from a proponent of the OV that would devalue the words of Job that speak of sovereignty. I imply no malice, just prejudice. I don't mean that in a nasty way, but I have difficulty in believing an OV viewpoint would be objective on this point. It seems to easy...
Then the LORD said to Job,
“Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who reproves God answer it.”
Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said,
“Now gird up your loins like a man;
I will ask you, and you instruct Me.
“Will you really annul My judgment?
Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?
“Or do you have an arm like God,
And can you thunder with a voice like His?
Then Job answered the LORD and said,
“I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
“Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”
It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job "
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/29/2004 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi spen,
I have no doubt you will not agree and will question my motives, but it is simply not true that Job was correct in everything he said about God, and I am definitely not interested in "devaluing Job's statements about sovereignty."
This is the same Job who said concerning the loss of all his children, "The LORD giveth, and the LORD taketh away; blessed be the name of the LORD," when the fact was, it was the Adversary who killed his children.
Additionally, the fact is that Job is an epic poem, not systematic theology. To try to construct systematic theology from Job is to grossly misunderstand the genre.
John
John,
I can disagree with you. I can also consider you prejudiced. This does not mean I question your motives, think you're mean or even think that I am unpredjudiced. I don't think that you have ever given me reason to question your motives. I would like to believe that you aren't attempting to deliberately mislead me. That is easy.
I do believe that Job's comments are correct when he states, "This is the same Job who said concerning the loss of all his children, "The LORD giveth, and the LORD taketh away; blessed be the name of the LORD." The adversary killed his children but God allowed it to happen. This does not destabilize me. This same God offered up His own son for me and in this I know that He is loving.
There is much about Job that I don't understand and I am sure that it is a unique genre of literature where we find a non-mosaic book recording man/God interaction after the flood and before Abraham (based upon the lifespans of Job). I may consider you predjudiced and even have silly ideas sometimes (and I am certain you do of me) but I appreciate and value your input and comments and do not read malice into your motives. Thank you for even taking the time to take my post seriously.
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/30/2004 3:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I disagree that our choice is "the most important aspect of salvation." I'm surprised that you, lock, who deny free will would state or imply that free will is the most important aspect of salvation. Our choice is only one of many conditions of our individual salvation, however important it may be.
John-
In the way I have seen you (and other OT'ers) explain the salvation process, there is no way of avoiding the fact that LFW theology has made human choice the most important aspect of salvation.
No matter what God tries to do in order to convince a person to believe in Him and "accept" His salvation for them, a person is still "free" to choose otherwise. God's actions (i.e. salvation) is completely depended on this one human choice.
In essence if a person chooses otherwise, all that God has done to convince them is of none effect. Does this not make God a failure? Being that a majority of mankind has not and will not believe during this lifetime and, as many believe, spend eternity in hell, turn God into a terrible salesman?
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/30/2004 4:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
I disagree that our choice is "the most important aspect of salvation." I'm surprised that you, lock, who deny free will would state or imply that free will is the most important aspect of salvation. Our choice is only one of many conditions of our individual salvation, however important it may be.
John-
In the way I have seen you (and other OT'ers) explain the salvation process, there is no way of avoiding the fact that LFW theology has made human choice the most important aspect of salvation.
Well, then, either they or you were simply mistaken or misconstruing "the big picture" of what salvation consists of. In my view, the most important aspect of salvation is its grounding principle; i.e., the love of God. From this basic foundation of divine benevolence flow the divinely ordained conditions of salvation; namely, Christ's incarnation, Christ's atonement for sin, Christ's PREVENIENT grace, by which all are drawn unto Him and without which no one CAN come to Him, Christ's intercession for us as our great high priest, Christ's resurrection and glorification, Christ's sending of the Holy Spirit as our all-sufficient Helper, Christ's keeping power towards all who believe (1 Pet. 1:5), and so forth. In other words, CHRIST is the Savior of mankind, not self.
As should be obvious from the above, man's choice to receive God's offer of salvation by meeting the divinely ordained human conditions of salvation (namely, repentance, faith, and perserverance in the resultant state of holiness, all three of which are volitional in nature), are clearly of rather miniscule importance in comparison to the unsearchable riches of Christ that have been offered for the life of the world.
quote:
No matter what God tries to do in order to convince a person to believe in Him and "accept" His salvation for them, a person is still "free" to choose otherwise. God's actions (i.e. salvation) is completely depended on this one human choice.
See my above response. Not only is the word "completely" terribly mistaken and simply wrong, there is far more than simply ONE human choice involved.
quote:
In essence if a person chooses otherwise, all that God has done to convince them is of none effect. Does this not make God a failure? Being that a majority of mankind has not and will not believe during this lifetime and, as many believe, spend eternity in hell, turn God into a terrible salesman?
Man's sheer stupidity and (willful) moral obtundancy in no way impugns the character of God. The very fact that God still offers reconciliation of the broken relationship to sinful men is proof of the power and supreme virtue of His love.
Ezek 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."
Ezek 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
John
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/30/2004 6:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
hi spen,
On further reflection, I see no problem with affirming that the misled and the misleader belong to Him, in the sense that God is certainly ruler over them, and may do with them as He pleases. That does not have to mean, as far as I can tell from the context of the passage in question, that God is the author of deception, sin, or evil.
Blessings,
John
Thank you John,
I am not at all stating that God is the author of evil or lies. I am simply maintaining that He is severeign even over the misled and the misleader. With the OV view on "hardening" they must surely agree with this in some measure. This sovereignty is not an excuse for those acting from their delusion. The false miracle workers in Matt 7:23 were not excused because they were sincere in their delusion. God expressed His sovereignty and damned them to the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/30/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Well, then, either they or you were simply mistaken or misconstruing "the big picture" of what salvation consists of. In my view, the most important aspect of salvation is its grounding principle; i.e., the love of God. From this basic foundation of divine benevolence flow the divinely ordained conditions of salvation; namely, Christ's incarnation, Christ's atonement for sin, Christ's PREVENIENT grace, by which all are drawn unto Him and without which no one CAN come to Him, Christ's intercession for us as our great high priest, Christ's resurrection and glorification, Christ's sending of the Holy Spirit as our all-sufficient Helper, Christ's keeping power towards all who believe (1 Pet. 1:5), and so forth. In other words, CHRIST is the Savior of mankind, not self.
John-
My contention is not that the above response does not list the important aspects of God's salvation given to us.
My point is that according to LFW, if man does not make the correct choices, then the list above means nothing for him.
What good is the love of God for the person who has rejected God's offer and is tormented in hell? Will God's love comfort him while being tormented?
What good is the work of Christ (listed above) for the human who has not made the correct choices? Will they think that Christ's intercession was not enough, being that they are being tormented in hell?
Really, how important is the drawing by the holy spirit when man can just reject this leading anyway?
No matter how important you claim God's "part" in salvation is, it does not make any difference if man chooses otherwise, according to LFW. Even if God does 99.9% of the work, it is all for naught becasue of the .1% of human choice to not "accept" God's offer.
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