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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/29/2004 1:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | I came across this verse from Job 12:16 and it stopped me. We have discussed the verses in 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chron 18 concerning God sending a deceiving spirit. This is supported by the passage in 2 Thess 2 concerning God sending an empowered deluding influence upon men. To me it appears that this passage brings delusion under God's rule, though perhaps not for salvation.
I find this concept both troubling and comforting. I am grateful that, while there are scriptures that portray that even deception is under the sovereignty of God and does not happen without His permission, we have the revealed one who was God incarnate, a man, who demonstrated God's love for the whole world through being obedient unto death on our behalf. His death demonstrated the love of God poured out for all, even those who killed Him. I find comfort in God's revealed and demonstrated love offered to me so that I am reconciled to Him and He rules over all.
Although this gift was for all, ultimately, we cannot make someone believe and escape. Even this is a gift of God. If God does not grant them repentance to come to know the truth, they will continue in their captivity to delusion. All we are commanded to do and all that we can do is to continue to kindly offer the truth and correct opposition to the gospel. Even the mislead and misleader are in subjection to God and only He grants escape although we are to kindly offer it in His name to all.
2 Tim 2:24
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
Spen Lake
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Tom
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| Posted 11/29/2004 1:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Especially self-delusion, in which God determines that a persion be delude themselves into believing and behaving like a Christian (no discernable differences between you and the real thing) only to discover late in life (or not at all) that they were a fake. How would any so-called believer know she was not so diluded?
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selah
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| Posted 11/29/2004 2:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I find this concept troubling. I am grateful that, while there are scriptures that portray that even deception is under the sovereignty of God and does not happen without His permission...
Hi Spen,
I'm not sure I understand how you translate those verses to mean that God gives permission to deceive. Does this mean that sometimes He says "yes, go ahead and deceive" and sometimes He says "no" or "yes, deceive that person, but don't deceive that one"...
Wouldn't that make God ultimately to blame for any specific act of deception (because he could have said no)?
quote:
2 Tim 2:24
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
I may be completely wrong, but I take verse 25 to mean something like "if perhaps those in opposition decide to repent, and God sees their heart (that their repentance has a pure motive) - He will grant that repentance and they will listen to the knowledge of the truth."
In other words, granting repentance is God's business because He knows more than His bond-servant. His bond-servant should not quarrel and should be kind to all...allowing God to work in the exchange as well.
It doesn't make sense to me that God would not grant repentance with a pure motive from anyone for any reason. He wants all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
love ya,
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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spenlake
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| Posted 11/29/2004 2:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
I think that my default is not wanting to repent but wanting to get what I want. I think that the nature of delusion is thinking that one is right when one is wrong. As long as I am deluded, there is no possibility of "repenting" because I think that I am right. God is not the author of evil or delusion, I love my delusion and pursue it to the extent I am able. The promises offered by delusion is what I want. I trust in the delusion to deliver.
God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.
Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
This is my state, I didn't seek after Him nor His truth. He sought me and gave me the repentance that I needed to turn.
I see nothing in the passage in 2 Timothy that says anything about "motives." I don't see that it implies that God responds to pure motives. To me it seems otherwise. I was hateful and full of bad motives and deceived. While I was in this condition, void of good motives, God gave me repentance. I have been found in Christ.
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Spen Lake
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selah
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| Posted 11/29/2004 2:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
...This is my state, I didn't seek after Him nor His truth. He sought me and gave me the repentance that I needed to turn.
I see nothing in the passage in 2 Timothy that says anything about "motives." I don't see that it implies that God responds to pure motives. To me it seems otherwise. I was hateful and full of bad motives and deceived. While I was in this condition, void of good motives, God gave me repentance...
Spen, if you ask me for something I may or may not "grant" it. That's all I'm saying about the sentence in question which reads: "if perhaps God may grant them repentance..." I'm just guessing that it's probable that the one who it's granted repentance sought it in the first place.
When you say God "gave me repentance" I don't know what that means. Maybe we're saying the same thing?
I do think that "Repenting" is an action we choose to DO. God doesn't turn us - we turn. How can he say he wants all to come to repentance if He's the one giving it? Why doesn't he just give it - to all?
(seems like clear instruction in the verses below)
Mt 3:2 - (you) "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mt 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mt 11:20 - Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
Mr 1:15 - and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; (you)repent and believe in the gospel."
Mr 6:12 - They went out and preached that men should repent.
Lu 13:3 - "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 - "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Lu 17:4 - "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, `I repent,' forgive him."
Ac 2:38 - Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ac 3:19 - "Therefore (you) repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
see where I don't understand. What am I missing? Maybe we have different perspectives on the meaning of the word "repent" all together. Are there other verses that suggest God gives repentance to some who don't seek it? How do we know when we've been given it?
off to class
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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Tom
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| Posted 11/29/2004 3:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
spenlake: I agree that I am plagued with "self-delusion" in that all my lusts (lusts of the eyes, lusts of the flesh, and the boastful prinde of life) lead me away from the truth of God and the gospel. It is my default mode. Gratefully, there is a loving God who has invaded my delusion and granted me repentance, and continues to do so. Because of His promises I have faith that He will keep me inspite of my deault to wander. False assurance is always the message of the false prophets who proclaim peace where there is no peace and constucting a false hope that God states does not exist. I think that universalism would be one expression of this. Preaching salvation by having faith in "election" would be another. The flavors of false are very broad, the truth remains narrow.
Spen, you might also be plagued with a God-sent dilusion in believing these things about yourself, namely, that it amounts to a confidence that you're saved at all. That's the point. If God sends such dilusions, you can have no reason to believe you are not suffering from such yourself in spite of everything you've just said, for what you've just said cannot count as evidence for genuine faith or anything else. What you've said may also constitute the dilusion itself from which you suffer. That's the point.
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orphan child
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Total Posts : 68
| Posted 11/29/2004 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
quote:
spenlake: I agree that I am plagued with "self-delusion" in that all my lusts (lusts of the eyes, lusts of the flesh, and the boastful prinde of life) lead me away from the truth of God and the gospel. It is my default mode. Gratefully, there is a loving God who has invaded my delusion and granted me repentance, and continues to do so. Because of His promises I have faith that He will keep me inspite of my deault to wander. False assurance is always the message of the false prophets who proclaim peace where there is no peace and constucting a false hope that God states does not exist. I think that universalism would be one expression of this. Preaching salvation by having faith in "election" would be another. The flavors of false are very broad, the truth remains narrow.
Spen, you might also be plagued with a God-sent dilusion in believing these things about yourself, namely, that it amounts to a confidence that you're saved at all. That's the point. If God sends such dilusions, you can have no reason to believe you are not suffering from such yourself in spite of everything you've just said, for what you've just said cannot count as evidence for genuine faith or anything else. What you've said may also constitute the dilusion itself from which you suffer. That's the point.
If a self-deluded man tells you all men are self-deluded, can you believe him?
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Tom
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| Posted 11/29/2004 4:43 AM (GMT -6) | | spenlake: I think that your point is valid.
Tom: I don’t think you get my point.
spenlake: We are only of the truth in as much as our beliefs are the truth.
Tom: No doubt. But that’s not my point.
spenlake: If the scriptures present the truth to us, then sincerely wandering from their message is delusion.
Tom: No doubt. But that’s not my point either.
spenlake: Our hope would be for God to keep us from wandering, giving us a love for the truth so that our lusts don't lead us astray when we are tempted. This "love of the truth" is a condition of the heart that is not of ourselves but given to us by God. God changes our heart from believing lies to loving the truth and this gift of God provides an anchoring.
Tom: It cannot provide an anchor. THIS is my point. Because now God also sends people delusions, and one such delusion is having people believe they love the truth, believe they’re regenerate, believe they’re committed to the gospel, behave like they believe these things, and give every indication that this is all true of them when in fact it is not--because God sends THIS kind of delusion to people--you have no anchor. You cannot know that what you feel is love for the truth is not God having determined you for self-delusion. That’s my point.
spenlake: His sheep follow His voice because they love the truth and His voice is the message of the truth.
Tom: And some of his non-sheep are deluded into believing they hear his voice and love the truth. They hang out with sheep. They look, smell, act, and bleat like sheep but are not sheep. They’re deluded and don’t know it. How can YOU know you are not so deluded? You can’t.
spenlake: The message of the truth is revealed in scriptures and it is a condition of our heart that God places there to come to our senses in response to the message and escape from being held captive by the devil to do his will.
Tom: But delusion is also a condition of the heart that God places there leading one to believe and act as though he has come to his senses when in fact he has not. How can you know you are not so deluded? You can’t.
spenlake: We are not held captive because we have no will to choose, we are held captive by our willing in our delusion. Our deception/delusion holds us captive and we will to follow it. When God grants us repentance and we come to know the truth, this sets us free from our delusion.
Tom: But God also grants to some a deluded repentance and freedom. How can you know you are not so deluded? You can’t.
spenlake: It makes sense to me. I don't see the issue being freewill/fatalism so much as delusion vs. coming to a knowledge of the truth.
Tom: I never suggested the issue was free will/fatalism or anything like that. It’s about “assurance.” Given you views, you cannot know that you’re saved. If God gives the delusions of assurance and evidences for salvation, then you cannot know whether all you have offered as reasons for assurance signify your genuine salvation or whether you are deluded by God.
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spenlake
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| Posted 11/29/2004 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
spenlake: Our hope would be for God to keep us from wandering, giving us a love for the truth so that our lusts don't lead us astray when we are tempted. This "love of the truth" is a condition of the heart that is not of ourselves but given to us by God. God changes our heart from believing lies to loving the truth and this gift of God provides an anchoring.
Tom: It cannot provide an anchor. THIS is my point. Because now God also sends people delusions, and one such delusion is having people believe they love the truth, believe they’re regenerate, believe they’re committed to the gospel, behave like they believe these things, and give every indication that this is all true of them when in fact it is not--because God sends THIS kind of delusion to people--you have no anchor. You cannot know that what you feel is love for the truth is not God having determined you for self-delusion. That’s my point.
I think that I am getting your point. I am not saying that God is the author of deception and lies, but that He is sovereign even over them. I am saying simply that unless God freed me from my own deception and captivity to my delusion, I would be held captive by them.
You are saying that my beliefs may be a delusion sent by God. In as much as I trust my "beliefs" for salvation and they take the place of trusting God and the work of Christ for may salvation - you may be right. However, I believe that the death of Christ is true and the life it offers me is true and the witness of His resurection proving it is true was given to me by men who were truthful. I believe that the message of scriptures presents this truth. I find assurance in that God has demonstrated that He has given us His true word and He does not lie. My assurance is not a feeling that I feel, but a knowledge that God's word's are only true and that scriptures are God's words to us, and that eternal life promised by Christ is freely offered to me.
Joseph Smith may be deluded, Lock and the universalists may be deluded, Paul Cain may be deluded, and I may be deluded. This current state of not knowing who is deluded or not because judgment is not immediate and cause/effect isn't now clear - this will not last (I believe). There is a time coming in which all will be made clear and we will see deception end. The stakes are very high, eternal life or eternal death. As what happens on the other side of death is still a mystery to the living, the cause and effect are not yet clear.
Spen Lake
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Tom
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| Posted 11/29/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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spenlake
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| Posted 11/29/2004 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
When you throw away general revelation (e.g. logic), then you can't know who's deluded and who isn't. But scripture never throws out general revelation, it adds God's revelation to it, strengthening it and going beyond it, but never against it.
I like this aspect. I don't have strong scriptural back-ups in my head just now, but in my experiences when I have been freed from delusion myself or seen others that have been, I witnessed something that was wrong/false (maybe event insignificant or tangential to the main issue) being accepted. When this was questioned, it led to a doorway out of delusion. In my case, it was when the church I was attending wouldn't follow its by-laws and was acting illegally in a civil way. When these actions contrary to Romans 12 were justified by the pastor shaking a bible in my face and telling me, "This is how we run the church," I saw error where I hadn't seen it before and it became a first thread leading me out. If I had accepted it as "OK" to disregard the by-laws, I may not have gotten out.
Spen Lake
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orphan child
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| Posted 11/29/2004 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
When you throw away general revelation (e.g. logic), then you can't know who's deluded and who isn't. But scripture never throws out general revelation, it adds God's revelation to it, strengthening it and going beyond it, but never against it.
I like this aspect. I don't have strong scriptural back-ups in my head just now, but in my experiences when I have been freed from delusion myself or seen others that have been, I witnessed something that was wrong/false (maybe event insignificant or tangential to the main issue) being accepted. When this was questioned, it led to a doorway out of delusion. In my case, it was when the church I was attending wouldn't follow its by-laws and was acting illegally in a civil way. When these actions contrary to Romans 12 were justified by the pastor shaking a bible in my face and telling me, "This is how we run the church," I saw error where I hadn't seen it before and it became a first thread leading me out. If I had accepted it as "OK" to disregard the by-laws, I may not have gotten out.
That's what apologetics is all about, extra-biblical proof. Otherwise you'd have the bible versus the vedas versus the Koran versus the book of Mormon versus....
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spenlake
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| Posted 11/29/2004 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
In Scripture, God only sends delusion on those who have already rejected the truth.
2 Thess 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
This is true in every case I am aware of in Scripture. I did a post here about a year ago in which I detailed each and every instance I could find of God sending "lying spirits" and "deluding spirits." In each case (as with King Saul, for instance) God did not send the delusion to the person until after the person had already rejected God and truth. (I'll try and dig up that old post from the archives).
This is a crucially important point, that God confirms our choices, whether for good or evil--for those who repent and believe, He confirms that choice by sending the HOLY Spirit. And the precise opposite is just as true--God sends an evil spirit to confirm the evil choices of those who refuse the truth, thus compounding their wickedness. I think the important point is that in no case does God do this sort of thing arbitrarily. He gives us what we want--good or evil.
John
John,
I do believe in the concept of hardening that you bring out. In some sense, though, I believe that we have all already rejected the truth before God granted us repentance. If not, God would be the author of deception/evil, which is not the case. There is none that seeks after God. Peter rejected the truth of Jesus before the slave girl. Judas also rejected the truth in betraying Jesus. Peter was granted repentance and Jesus prayed for him that his faith would not fail.
In Acts 20 Paul tells his friends the elders of Ephesus, "from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." Somehow I think that rejecting the truth is the "default" mode and God resets this when He grants us repentance and allows us to come to a knowledge of the truth instead of hardening us.
Spen Lake
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JEE
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| Posted 11/29/2004 6:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
In some sense, though, I believe that we have all already rejected the truth before God granted us repentance.
Romans 2 says that his kindness leads us to repentance.
quote:
If not, God would be the author of deception/evil, which is not the case.
Huh? It seems to me that precisely the opposite would be true, if the view you seem to be supporting is true.
quote:
There is none that seeks after God.
Other scriptures indicate that this is not always the case:
"He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
"You shall find me when you seek for me with your whole heart."
Matt 6:33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 11:9 ¶ "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 11:10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
Acts 15:17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the gentiles who are called by my name.
Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
quote:
Peter rejected the truth of Jesus before the slave girl.
Thankfully, he apparently did not reject the truth of Jesus altogether, for as we know, Peter was graciously restored.
quote:
Judas also rejected the truth in betraying Jesus.
Yes.
quote:
In Acts 20 Paul tells his friends the elders of Ephesus, "from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." Somehow I think that rejecting the truth is the "default" mode and God resets this when He grants us repentance and allows us to come to a knowledge of the truth instead of hardening us.
The problem I see with the "default" idea is that it makes it absolutely impossible to really know which category you fall into, the deceived or the enlightened, and Scripture plainly states that we can KNOW that we have eternal life.
John
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orphan child
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| Posted 11/29/2004 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
This is a crucially important point, that God confirms our choices, whether for good or evil--for those who repent and believe, He confirms that choice by sending the HOLY Spirit. And the precise opposite is just as true--God sends an evil spirit to confirm the evil choices of those who refuse the truth, thus compounding their wickedness. I think the important point is that in no case does God do this sort of thing arbitrarily. He gives us what we want--good or evil.
You have taken the most important aspect of salvation out of God's hands and placed it into man's.
God gives us what we want?!
Yeah, if we ask for bread, He won't give us a stone. If we ask for a fish, He doesn't give us a snake. Luke 11:11
Ask and you will receive. John 16:24
quote:
Basically, our choices control God's actions.
Yeah, whatever we bind on earth, will be bound in heaven. Matt 16:19
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spenlake
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| Posted 11/29/2004 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
Plus, Romans 1 shows the opposite direction, their rejection of the knowlege of God precedes their devolution.
Romans 1:
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Paul is making a case of God's evidence to non-believers in order to say "so that they are without excuse". They've rejected evidence.
Where does it once show that they/any accepted the evidence first and then sought God? It seems that this passage could also be used to point out that men, all men, rejected God. God made it evident and they refused. Thus, all men "merit" hardening while only some are hardened?
I don't think we will probably agree "wy" from this facet as this brings us around to other issues which we already disagree on. In any case, it seems that our command is identical, preach and teach the gospel and some will listen/repent. Why? If it is because God grants them repentance or they choose to repent, the most important is that they repent. I hope that we have unity here. God's gospel is offered to all and some believe it. Those that reject it are responsible for their actions and, regardless of God hardening them or not (as we don't know the heart) we continue to preach and teach even to these as we cannot tell if a person is thouroghly hardened or not.
Spen Lake
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orphan child
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| Posted 11/29/2004 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
Plus, Romans 1 shows the opposite direction, their rejection of the knowlege of God precedes their devolution.
Romans 1:
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Paul is making a case of God's evidence to non-believers in order to say "so that they are without excuse". They've rejected evidence.
Where does it once show that they/any accepted the evidence first and then sought God? It seems that this passage could also be used to point out that men, all men, rejected God. God made it evident and they refused. Thus, all men "merit" hardening while only some are hardened?
Romans 1:19, God made it evident to them. How?
verse 20, through what has been made, all around them.
verse 21, they knew God, but rejected Him. Then their devolution starts. verse 21-32
Yeah, I agree with you, we're arguing over origins which isn't as important as what do we do now given the condition the world is in.
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