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pdaviesoz
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/16/2004 10:31 PM (GMT -6) |   | Spen has (rightly) questioned the credibility of the Prophetic - Words given which have not happened (yet?). I just found a segment where John Paul Jackson is asked about such issues. I've saved it in MP3 and will post it on my homepage (as I cannot work out a better way to do it)
http://www.cobweb.com.au/~pdavies
Have a listen. be fair.
Paul D
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pdaviesoz
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/16/2004 11:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Having trouble uploading MP3. please be patient. Sorry!
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/17/2004 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul,
Kind of you to go to all the work. I continue to appreciate your zeal. I don't doubt the sincerity of Jackson either.
Jackson tells us that people don't listen to prophecies anymore because they don't believe them because they haven't been right. His answer is that there is a need for prophets to be right several times in a row to gain credibility before we should believe them on the "big one." Jackson's rule for discernment is that the greater the devastation or need to make a decision, the greater the credibiltiy needed. In a sense that is true but there is no reference at all to the scriptures regarding anything that he is saying. We are simply told to believe Paul because he thinks in all sincerity that this is true. Agabus was believed "out of the box." Elijah was believed "out of the box" because he was never wrong.
The same could be said about the oracle of Delphi. The "spirit of divination" that Paul opposes in Acts 16 is actually the spirit of pythos, the name for the oracle at Delphi. What this spirit spoke through the girl was true. This girl had the credibilty that Jackson is speaking about. She was right several times in a row and her "words" were considered valuable enough to make her owners lots of money. The oracle of Delphi was believed in ancient times because she was credible to those that came to her. She was right several times in a row.. This "credibility" of the oracle at Delphi (the spirit of pythos) also made alot of money for the temple. Interestingly, the church has a long history of tolerance for these oracles and listening to their words. Even in the Sistine chapel, you can see the Sybils sitting next to Daniel, Ezekiel, and the other prophets. Delphi is there in the Pope's private chapel.
I also found it interesting what Jackson specifically referred to at the end of your MP3 regarding prophecies concerning signs in the stars and comets. The only predictons I think we have in this regard quoted in the Bible is from the occult. Magi were not great Christian prophets but magicians from Babylon. Isaiah 47 says something about this that reminds me of another thread:
Those who prophesy by the stars,
Those who predict by the new moons,
Stand up and save you from what will come upon you. Behold, they have become like stubble,
Fire burns them;
They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame;
In the passage in Luke we are not told to prophecy regarding this. We already have been told by the prophect Moses predicted that things are coming and that is enough. "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken."
Jackson does consider credibility important in another way. He is promising the technology and instruction to know dreams. It is commendable that his beliefs in quality services are strong. He is certainly trying to do his best to raise the quality level of the credibility "standard" through establishing a "certification process." The body of Christ now has "certified dream interpreters" to give high quality consistent interpretations. Look at what his work and theological study has brought to the church.
COURSE 202:
ADVANCED WORKSHOP IN DREAM INTERPRETATION
Course Description
is a "graduate level" course for sharing personal dream journals, delving deeper into interpretative skills and practice interpreting others dreams. Towards the end of the course, dream teams may be formed that offer biblical dream interpretation in various local coffeehouses, bookstores, and college campuses. This course consists of 21 hours of teaching.
This now begins to sound like he is working to fulfill the great commission, preaching the good news of dreams in the highways and byways. This "confession" is becoming less and less "Jesus coming in the flesh" and more and more "experiencing a spiritual Jesus."
Spen Lake
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/17/2004 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jackson tells us that people don't listen to prophecies anymore because they don't believe them because they haven't been right.
More that they have been premature, and that the accuracy or credibility of the prophetic person has not been established by God.
quote:
In a sense that is true but there is no reference at all to the scriptures regarding anything that he is saying.
There doesn't need to be. The job of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth, and this occurs through relationship, not through human methods of study (which is not to say these aren't beneficial - just not the whole, or even a major part of the story).
quote:
The same could be said about the oracle of Delphi. The "spirit of divination" that Paul opposes in Acts 16 is actually the spirit of pythos, the name for the oracle at Delphi. What this spirit spoke through the girl was true. This girl had the credibilty that Jackson is speaking about. She was right several times in a row and her "words" were considered valuable enough to make her owners lots of money. The oracle of Delphi was believed in ancient times because she was credible to those that came to her. She was right several times in a row.. This "credibility" of the oracle at Delphi (the spirit of pythos) also made alot of money for the temple. Interestingly, the church has a long history of tolerance for these oracles and listening to their words. Even in the Sistine chapel, you can see the Sybils sitting next to Daniel, Ezekiel, and the other prophets. Delphi is there in the Pope's private chapel.
I see John Paul as simply explaining a human truth - not establishing an extra-biblical doctrine. We listen to people who get it right. The Oracle COULD tell people secrets about themselves and predict (NOT forsee) future events, which demonic power would help to establish. Note that Paul took 3 days before he dealt with the demon. Only God tells the future accurately.
We need to be careful that we don't judge prophecy as wrong simply because it doesn't happen immediately - Jeremiah suffered because of this. Some prophetic ministers have jumped the gun by trying to predict dates when God wasn't giving them, this in fairness is a sign of immaturity rather than falsity, and doesn't invalidate the part that God WAS giving. We do not yet have an established Prophetic Office.
In the same way we don't cane beginner pastors if they make mistakes in their preaching, we need to be caeful in allowing developing prophetic people the same grace.
quote:
I also found it interesting what Jackson specifically referred to at the end of your MP3 regarding prophecies concerning signs in the stars and comets. The only predictons I think we have in this regard quoted in the Bible is from the occult. Magi were not great Christian prophets but magicians from Babylon. Isaiah 47 says something about this that reminds me of another thread:
Those who prophesy by the stars,
Those who predict by the new moons,
Stand up and save you from what will come upon you. Behold, they have become like stubble,
Fire burns them;
They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame;
In the passage in Luke we are not told to prophecy regarding this. We already have been told by the prophect Moses predicted that things are coming and that is enough. "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken."
Not true. Signs in the heavens and the earth were an important part of prophetic validation, which is why Jesus was asked repeatedly for a sign. This does NOT refer to miracles, but to signs in the heaven and the earth. In other words, they were saying to Jesus: "maybe Lazarus wasn't really dead. Maybe the sick just suddenly got better. Show us something that really cannot be faked."
Joshua's long day. Isaiah's sun going backwards, etc.
"Prophesy by the sun..." refers to divination - a procedure of examining the heavens to work out what God is doing, different from stating that an event will occur as a sign that a Word from God is genuine.
quote:
Jackson does consider credibility important in another way. He is promising the technology and instruction to know dreams. It is commendable that his beliefs in quality services are strong. He is certainly trying to do his best to raise the quality level of the credibility "standard" through establishing a "certification process." The body of Christ now has "certified dream interpreters" to give high quality consistent interpretations. Look at what his work and theological study has brought to the church.
COURSE 202:
ADVANCED WORKSHOP IN DREAM INTERPRETATION
Course Description
is a "graduate level" course for sharing personal dream journals, delving deeper into interpretative skills and practice interpreting others dreams. Towards the end of the course, dream teams may be formed that offer biblical dream interpretation in various local coffeehouses, bookstores, and college campuses. This course consists of 21 hours of teaching.
This now begins to sound like he is working to fulfill the great commission, preaching the good news of dreams in the highways and byways. This "confession" is becoming less and less "Jesus coming in the flesh" and more and more "experiencing a spiritual Jesus."
"Technology"?? Haven't seen that one.
So?? Dreams are a significant way God communicates with his people, and few in the Church are daring to attempt to help understand and interpret dreams. Their Dream Teams have had huge success in evangelising people, and the principles he teaches (at least at the basic level) are quite useful. The fact is that a huge percentage of those seeking out occultists to get help with dream interpretation in the US are practising christians. Why has the church allowed Satan to monopolise this area, which is the Church's responsibility? As Joseph and Daniel pointed out, Dreams belong to God.
We had a 2-week period with our pastoral class at school where we prayed for God to give dreams, and had a go interpreting them. This amazing time had a huge impact on the students and many were greatly encouraged by the dreams they had. The 2 weeks ran to about 6, as the kids were just so keen to hear from the Lord. [The same class began the year with 4 asthmatics and 1 dyslexic. The dyslexic doesn't have any symptoms at all (his mum is greatly impressed) and 3 of the 4 asthmatics have no problems at all, even surrounded by the normal triggers. The 4th has said she hasn't noticed any asthma, but hasn't tested it.] God is good!
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/17/2004 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul: We had a 2-week period with our pastoral class at school where we prayed for God to give dreams, and had a go interpreting them. This amazing time had a huge impact on the students and many were greatly encouraged by the dreams they had. The 2 weeks ran to about 6, as the kids were just so keen to hear from the Lord. [The same class began the year with 4 asthmatics and 1 dyslexic. The dyslexic doesn't have any symptoms at all (his mum is greatly impressed) and 3 of the 4 asthmatics have no problems at all, even surrounded by the normal triggers. The 4th has said she hasn't noticed any asthma, but hasn't tested it.] God is good!
Spen: Where do scriptures tell us to pray for dreams and interpret them as a source of encouragement? When are we told to pray for dreams to hear from the Lord. We know that the Holy Spirit Himself inspired and works through the written Word. Why wouldn't I look to the written Word of God that is a sure thing when I want to pursue hearing God instead of dream? We know what is found in scriptures is certainly God speaking to us and we are told it is for our encouragement. Are you certain that your dreams were God speaking and are you certain that your interpretation was God speaking? On what basis, one miracle or several? I know one sure source of encouragement that is certainly God and I would encourage this for pastoral training.
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Spen Lake
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/17/2004 1:43 PM (GMT -6) | | It does not directly impinge upon the issue of Jackson, Cain, etc., but the fact is we do have examples in Scripture of God giving the interpretation of a dream to a believer after earnest prayer for the interpretation:
Dan. 2:16 And Daniel went in and besought the king to appoint him a time, that he might show to the king the interpretation. 17 Then Daniel went to his house and made the matter known to Hanani'ah, Mish'a-el, and Azari'ah, his companions, 18 and told them to seek mercy of the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that Daniel and his companions might not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision of the night. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. 20 Daniel said: "Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever. to whom belong wisdom and might. 21 He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding; 22 he reveals deep and mysterious things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him. RSV
According to Joel and Peter, dreams were to be a sign of the outpouring of the Spirit:
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
Acts 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
While it is true that we have no specific instruction in the New Testament to ask God to speak to us in a dream, it is clear that God does do precisely that sometimes:
Matthew 1:20 - But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 2:12 - And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Matthew 2:13 - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Matthew 2:19 - But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Matthew 2:22 - But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
Given the above, one has to wonder why it would be wrong for one who is unreservedly submitted to Jesus as LORD, who is seeking for specific direction, to ask the Lord to show him the way he should go, in whatever way He may see fit, including a dream if necessarily.
One has to wonder why Joel and Peter would mention dreams as a sign of the outpouring of the Spirit, if the recipients of those dreams were not to follow the biblical examples of people of faith such as Daniel and Joseph, who specifically asked the Lord to reveal to them the meaning of particular dreams.
Further, as we find in Scripture no case of God forbidding us to ask for Him to speak to us in dreams, it is not clear (at least to me) why this would necessarily be a wicked thing. The condemnation of false prophets, diviners, etc., in Deut. 13 is specifically addressed to those who would lead the people AWAY from the LORD. But if a child of God who truly was seeking God with all his heart simply asked the Lord to speak to him through a dream, "if that your will, O Lord," I honestly don't see anything in Scripture that would outlaw such a request.
God has spoken to me powerfully in dreams before, and I sincerely hope He does in the future. I think it should go without saying that we ought to be in a constant state of openness to God's voice. Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice." Paul said, "they that are led by the Spirit are the children of God."
Again, this is not in any way meant as some kind of endorsement of the so-called "prophetic movement;" I am only speaking to the issue of whether or not believers ought to seek to hear the voice of God.
My 2c
John
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/17/2004 10:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Further, as we find in Scripture no case of God forbidding us to ask for Him to speak to us in dreams, it is not clear (at least to me) why this would necessarily be a wicked thing.
My point exactly. The bible doesn't tell us NOT to. It does tell us that Faith pleases God, and "you have not because you ask not."
Personally, I need to hear from God more clearly and more often. I ask for it so I can grow in sensitivity to His voice.
How can we "only do what (we) see the father doing" if we aren't practised in seeing and hearing His instructions? God "rewards those who earnestly seek him". How do we seek Him without growing in 2-way communication with Him?
Basic Theology teaches you don't base a case on a negative (absence of something).
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barryatk
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/18/2004 6:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John: Given the above, one has to wonder why it would be wrong for one who is unreservedly submitted to Jesus as LORD, who is seeking for specific direction, to ask the Lord to show him the way he should go, in whatever way He may see fit, including a dream if necessarily.
Spen: We are told to pray for direction. We can cry out to God for direction. We are even told two "technologies" or techniques that were legal in the OT for seeking this direction, the Urim and Thummim and casting lots. These may even be a kind of "divination" but it was legal. I know that God can speak to us any way He chooses. But this does not mean that we are told to seek Him there. Dreams come and go and are a natural part of life that we can claim is God speaking if we happen to want to. Once we have dreams, then we say God has spoken. Why don't you raise the bar a bit if you believe in miracles and make sure it is God instead of that undigested bit of beef (or silly dream because you were simply too tired). Start a "burning bush club." Everybody could get together and go to the desert to find a burning bush. Then you could video it and here God in something a bit more spiritual.
We are never told that people sought God in dreams. We are told that God gave them dreams or came to them in dreams. There is a huge difference. We are told to seek God in the manner and ways that He commands us to. I don't find us told to seek Him in dreams this way. The fact that I create a dream club of some sort so that we can seek God in dreams and then process the results is unbiblical and a kind of divination. The shamans also do this and it is popular in native american cultures. They have "dream catchers" that they use as technologies. This is not scriptural but a new age method to seek spirits and spiritual experiences when pursued this way.
Hey All!
I have had it in my heart to offer dream interpretation in public places. My pastor HATED the idea. Most around me think dreams are the product of the late-nite pizza. I am glad to have most on this thread agreeing that God still speaks this way. Now, I want to get a bit controversial...do our dreams not expose possibly some of our unknown thoughts and desires? I call this the unconscious, and I am not a Freudian. I believe there is much hidden on our hearts that we will benfit from once we see. God keeps telling us, the church, to awaken!
A book i THINK great is Mark and Patti Virkler's "Am I Being Deceived". They com e from a once pharisaical background to a now "full gospel". They cover dreams, journaling, hearing God's voice, and more. I think it is great! They also have an internet college! ON staff are many well-receieved godly men!
Blessings!
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/18/2004 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Dreams can have 3 sources: God, Satan and "last night's pizza". learning to discern the source is step 1.
However, if we are praying and asking God for guidance on an issue, I believe its most likely Him, however wierd the dream may be.
eg. I rarely dream. I once had a crystal-clear dream in which the pastor of the church we were then in was confessing an affair. It was SO clear, but I knew in the natural it wass rubbish. He was a little stand-offish on the Prophetic at that time, and I wass relatively new in the church, so I wrote down every detail and passed it on to him, trusting that he knew the basics (ie. fugurative NOT literal, etc).
He didn't. But the upshot of all the working out of that was that a Jezebel in the leadership was exposed and immediately after left the church.
God even uses our stuff-ups! He's so cool!
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