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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Dreams - God's voice or spirits? | Forum Quick Jump
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/23/2004 11:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Acts 21:4
After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem. When our days there were ended, we left and started on our journey
QUESTION:
Through what "spirit" were these disciples telling Paul not to set foot in Jerusalem?
Is this a case of, "We feel that you should not set foot?"
or is it a case of, "The Holy Spirit has told us you are not to set foot?"
In any case it does not appear authoritative because Paul doesn't even respond, he just continues to go to Jerusalem - the very thing that they are telling him through the spirit not to do. A few verses later we see the true prophet Agabus tell Paul what will happen when he gets there, but gives him no direction. Agabus leaves Paul's liberty intact. All of the other Christians around Paul pleaded with him to follow their guidance, but are not recorded as claiming it was God's guidance to stay. They expressed their own advice, based upon the revelation of a true prophet, but Paul made his decision within the liberty he had in God.
Sorry, missed this one.
There's revelation (what you see/hear/sense), interpretation (whst you think it means), and application (what should be done about it).
No true or false here. The first group were receiving real warnings from the Spirit about what would happen to Paul - they APPLIED the revelation incorrectly. Its a maturity issue - learning to discern the correct response.
Agabus actually also made an error - he said the JEWS would bind Paul, in actual fact it was the Romans. Paul made a choice to proceed regardless. His application was "OK, that will happen, but I still have to go". Only in heaven will we find out who was most in line with the will of God. Maybe God was simply warning him so he could make an informed choice.
I don't believe Paul was infallible (as some in the church seem to these days). He himself claimed to have "the firstfruits of the Spirit" and wrote of events where the "Sons of God" would "restore" the creation. This was at the end of his earthly ministry (in Romans) after the events above. We can only guess at what he had actually seen about the "fulness" of the spirit.
About the Prophets. new Testament Prophecy is very different from OT. An OT prophet simply had to parrot whatever God gave him. We have the Spirit living in us, and we share in the revelation and the responsibility for appropriate delivery. The black and white rules were never applied, even by the OT Jews, and nowhere in the NT are Prophetic people censored for errors.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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pdaviesoz
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 63
| Posted 11/23/2004 11:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Paul: God NEVER even deigns to bother trying to prove anything - he simply states.
Spen: Exactly the point. You, and your prophets, are not God.
The scriptures are God's word, the revelation of God who came to us as man and ONLY spoke the words of the Father (whom we have not seen at any time). Jesus chose, in fromt of living men who were witnesses, apostles to give us His teachings, and these men wrote them down for us. These are certain. These words are certainly God's. This standard claims that those who claim authoritative revelation must never be wrong as proof. Even then, if they are 100% right and lead us to teachings of God that are inconsistent with the whole council of God and especially the God-man, the incarnate God who is the unique anointed one giving us the very words of the Father, if these men confess something else they are false.
Ahhh. Here's your problem.
None of the prophetic guys I know and trust have ever claimed revelation with Biblical authority. To claim otherwise is just wrong.
The OT teaching you claim is about 100% accuracy or False has been rebuffed by several learned theologians, such as Wayne Grudem and Jack Deere. Its an incorrect assumption about a passage taken in isolation.
Inconsistent is the key. I've actually learned a lot more about what IS in the Bible from these guys than from any non-prophetic teacher. There is a lot more support for supernatural revelation and experiences in the Bible than there is for Dunking over Sprinkling. Again, assuming that if God didn't spell it out in the Bible then we don't need to know is NOT itself consistent with the whole council of God. Scripture is full of accounts of God speaking to individuals, sometimes soveriegnly, sometimes in response to them seeking him out. Just because you can't see it in the Bible doesn't mean its not there, or not relevent.
Divination is attempting to learn something from spiritual powers by a form of magical technique or ritual. Revelation being sought from the Father is something we are able to pray for and seek.
Attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan is stated ot be unpardonable. I don't accuse you of this, but I wouldn't be comfortable judging the revelation received by others based on my limited understanding of the Bible. That's why Jesus said: " by their fruits." Few who know these men would agree with any assertion that they do not encourage "righteousness, peace and joy" in others.
Paul D | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/24/2004 1:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul: The OT teaching you claim is about 100% accuracy or False has been rebuffed by several learned theologians, such as Wayne Grudem and Jack Deere. Its an incorrect assumption about a passage taken in isolation....Agabus actually also made an error - he said the JEWS would bind Paul, in actual fact it was the Romans.
Spen: Here we see the gulf between your beliefs on who speaks for God and the beliefs that I hold. On the basis of Jack Deere and Grudem, you follow men who claim to speak for God and consider them major prophetic voices. You consider their revelations critical to your growth and maturity as a Christian. That they are proven wrong, that they are alcoholics or homosexuals, that they set up curriculum to teach their "gifts" to others, you accept as actions of true prophets.
In contrast, Agabus, with his prophecy regarding Paul, was wrong.
What you "confess" as the solution to our problems is not "Jesus coming in the flesh," what you consider to be the solution is the revelations and spiritual experiences of other men. While you may sign an orthodox statement of faith and would never deny the work of Christ, you promote and speak about the freedom and hope found in the revelations of other men.
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/24/2004 9:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen:
What you "confess" as the solution to our problems is not "Jesus coming in the flesh," what you consider to be the solution is the revelations and spiritual experiences of other men. While you may sign an orthodox statement of faith and would never deny the work of Christ, you promote and speak about the freedom and hope found in the revelations of other men.
Barryatk: The solutions and revelations of these men are not from the men but inspired by the Holy Spirit...in my opinion and Paul D's.You want to stay close to the central message of the gospel. It seems you want to stay so close and so safe that you may likely miss some of God's will and influence others to do the same. God has a Kingdom Coming Here to Earth. We know as God brings it satan will oppose. We in the church are not very used to opposition to God's Kingdom Growth coming from those in the church with us. My pastor friend and I agree, most of those opposing us are Christians. Most of their arguments are of man's wisdom for which they find relevant scriptures(they think). Paul D has written that the conflict of the ages is between Grace and Law. Put me on the side of Grace if I gotta be counted somewhere and on the side of seeking God through the manifestation of His Spirit, backed by the Word. Give me the Power that God promised at the end of Matthew along with the danger that accompanies as well as the need for the spiritual strength of the fellowship of the saints with God and with each other!
Humbly and with appealing heart,
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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