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Tim Monson
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 2

Posted 11/2/2004 1:50 PM (GMT -6)

I have a question, I was wondering if anyone can help me out. When speaking of free will and love and the right we have to choose whether or whether not to accept Christ's sacrifice, I come across the issue of Grace. More specifically, I am talking about common grace versus specific/special grace. We as humans have the concept of recognizing common grace, but without God's triune help through the Holy Spirit we cannot recognize specific/special grace. Does this mean that we do not truly have free will because the Holy Spirit is imposing himself on us? In Romans 8 it speaks of minds who are sinful are hostile to God, and the mind controlled by the Spirit are peaceful. Is there some mediation where the Spirit imposes himself on us not giving us the chance to make a free decision by ourselves?

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 11/2/2004 2:06 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Tim,

(And welcome to the forum! I don't think I've seen you here before).

Open Theists generally side with classical Arminianism and the ante-Nicene Fathers, in its belief in what is known of as prevenient grace, as well as a synergistic understanding of grace and free will, as opposed to the classical Augustinian/Calvinian understanding of monergism. In the usual Arminian view, prevenient serves to restore fallen mankind's free will, making it possible for him to reject or accept God's offer of pardon. Another somewhat less common view among Arminians sees prevenient grace as God working to persuade mankind to comply with the conditions of salvation, not to restore man's free will but to persuade him to submit to the truth.

In both Arminian views, God's grace is not irresistible, as it is in the Aug/Cal view. Prevenient grace is viewed as what the Spirit of God does prior to our regeneration to bring us to repentance and faith. It requires us to give all credit for our salvation to God (for we cannot in and of ourselves save ourselves apart from the gracious influence of prevenient grace in our lives), while at the same time allowing for the possibility that such proferred grace can in fact be rejected due to unbelief/hardness of heart, thus avoiding the deterministic Aug/Cal concept of grace.

Hope this helps,

John

http://revivaltheology.net

Tim Monson
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 2

Posted 11/2/2004 2:22 PM (GMT -6)

John,
Thanks for your answer, but I don't think I communicated the question correctly, or maybe I just am not understanding you in the right context of my question. This prevenient grace is shown to us through the Holy Spirit and is not irresistible is what I'm getting from what you said... I side with the fact that the so called "blueprint worldview" is not correct because it pulls out free will, but I wonder if free will is totally ours based on any kind of predestination. What exactly do you view predestination in and of itself to mean? Anything from the Greek text that is different that might make my understanding skewed?

Tim*

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 11/2/2004 4:47 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Monson

I have a question, I was wondering if anyone can help me out. When speaking of free will and love and the right we have to choose whether or whether not to accept Christ's sacrifice, I come across the issue of Grace. More specifically, I am talking about common grace versus specific/special grace. We as humans have the concept of recognizing common grace, but without God's triune help through the Holy Spirit we cannot recognize specific/special grace. Does this mean that we do not truly have free will because the Holy Spirit is imposing himself on us? In Romans 8 it speaks of minds who are sinful are hostile to God, and the mind controlled by the Spirit are peaceful. Is there some mediation where the Spirit imposes himself on us not giving us the chance to make a free decision by ourselves?

Hi Tim,
Welcome to the board! I don't believe we've met. Good Question! My understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit is that His power is one of influence in our lives, strong influence, but not coersion. Meaning, that the Father orchestrates things in our lives, influences, or directs through the power of His Spirit, directs and redirects, but within the realm of all that, we still have free will. We can choose other than to do, or be what He wants, or there really is no choice (no free will) at all. He does not superimpose Himself upon us, or the gift of grace, and the invitation to come would mean nothing. His grace is not irresistable in otherwards. It is strongly persuasive, powerfully compelling. He has accomplished all that was needed at Calvary, and will continue to "call us to come" and "whosoever will may come" to Him, and receive that gift. He "draws" us to Himself, and we choose. Repentence requires a recognition of sin, and a step of obedience; a step of faith. I have no doubt that we are heavily influenced, compelled, and persuaded, and that He knows just what will speak to us individually. The good news is that when we do come, that He takes and seals that, and works to complete what He has begun in us.

At least this is the grace, and the Father that I know. I realize that some come from different theological perspectives here, and you'll likely get a popourri of answers!

God Bless,
Jo-Anne
By the way, the "new guy" brings the donuts! (or so I was told!)

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 11/3/2004 8:11 AM (GMT -6)

Tim-
You pose very good questions concerning the will of man. I agree with how you see Rom. 8 and that a person is either lead by the flesh or lead by the spirit of God. You hinted at asking if there is a probationary time period when the spirit of God is attempting to persuade you into believing Him and accepting His proposal of salvation. I have asked this in other posts as well and it is clear this probationary period is not found in the scriptures.

I believe that man does have choice and a will, but I do not believe that our will is a free as the OT'ers believe. I side with the bible in that we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Our choices will be directly influnced by our disposition. If we are lead by the flesh and its desires, then our choices will reflect this and lead to sin. If we are lead by the spirit of God, we will prefer the things of God, and our choices along with the fruit produced will reflect this. I agree with Jo-Anne that there is no coersion involved, instead when we are saved by the grace of God and lead by His spirit, we will naturally prefer the things of God.

Welcome to the board!

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Eeyore
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15

Posted 11/3/2004 8:33 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
I agree with Jo-Anne that there is no coersion involved, instead when we are saved by the grace of God and lead by His spirit

If He saves us against our will, it is coercion.

(not "coersion", teach) Big Smile

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 11/3/2004 10:10 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Monson
What exactly do you view predestination in and of itself to mean?

My understanding is that predestination is a divinely envisioned goal God has for every human being; i.e., "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8), "predestined to the adoption of sons." (Unless we are willing to say that God originally intended some people to be like Satan).

John

http://revivaltheology.net

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 11/6/2004 10:12 AM (GMT -6)

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom you gave me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."
John 17:12
"And all that were appointed unto eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards

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