quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Joanne,

I get where you're coming from. You are stating what most Westerners experience. I agree, but this is NOT what the Bible teaches. In Africa, where they have nothing except God to rely on, people see amazing miracles all the time. We are way too reliant on human methodology. Instead we need Faith, and we need to re-read the Bible for what it actually says, not our Western interpretation watering it down.

I've been reading up on John G Lake, who had a Smith Wigglesworth-type of ministry i the early 1900s. I'm discovering that the early Pentecostals had a far deeper faith and reliance on continual Holy Spirit communion than most modern Pentecostals are aware of. Hos sermons are awesome, and don't gloss over dealing with sin, but challenge christians to walk in holiness and to KNOW Jesus. They beleived that to see a doctor before you sought God was horribly wrong (which didn't mean they didn't use doctors). Their faith was in God first, and they pursued Him until they had a breakthrough. We give up too easily.

Blessings,

Paul D

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Joanne,


I've been reading up on John G Lake, who had a Smith Wigglesworth-type of ministry i the early 1900s.

Blessings,

Paul D

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Joanne,

I get where you're coming from. You are stating what most Westerners experience. I agree, but this is NOT what the Bible teaches. In Africa, where they have nothing except God to rely on, people see amazing miracles all the time. We are way too reliant on human methodology. Instead we need Faith, and we need to re-read the Bible for what it actually says, not our Western interpretation watering it down.

I've been reading up on John G Lake, who had a Smith Wigglesworth-type of ministry i the early 1900s. I'm discovering that the early Pentecostals had a far deeper faith and reliance on continual Holy Spirit communion than most modern Pentecostals are aware of. Hos sermons are awesome, and don't gloss over dealing with sin, but challenge christians to walk in holiness and to KNOW Jesus. They beleived that to see a doctor before you sought God was horribly wrong (which didn't mean they didn't use doctors). Their faith was in God first, and they pursued Him until they had a breakthrough. We give up too easily.

Blessings,

Paul D

---

The following link has an excellent article on John G. Lake and how his teachings and ministry have affected the "modern prophets" like Rick Joyner and Bob Jones.
http://www.crmspokane.org/lake.htm

I grew up believing in the spiritual greatness of men like Smith Wigglesworth (I was wrong). As part of our family devotional time, my father read us a biograpy on his life and ministry when I was 10 years old. Here are a few excerpts that consider Lake in Lake's own words.



From the above URL:
Lake’s sermons, statements and activities had many questionable and contradictory aspects to them. But there is one area in looking at this whole revival concept and Lake’s ministry, which is at the top that we need to address. It should be enough in itself to see the need to question the rest, if not reject it. It was uttered in the garden, Adam and Eve fell for it, and everything went sour after it. That was falling for the lie of lies.

You Can Be Like God

Let’s look at some of the things John G. Lake said.

"It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods. Jesus said, ‘I said ye are gods’ [John 10:34]. It is with the attitude of gods in the world that Jesus wants the Christian to live."12

"The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god."13

"I want you to hear what Jesus said about himself. God was in Christ, wasn’t He? An incarnation. God is in you, an incarnation, if you were born again. You are incarnate."14

"You are following in the footsteps of a God that says to the things that are not, and they become, and who says to the things that are and they stop being."15

"For God’s purpose through Jesus Christ is to deify the nature of men, and thus forever make them like unto,…Thus he becomes the Son of God, a Saviour and Redeemer forever."16

So, the foundation of Lake’s theology is laid, yet in opposition to the very scriptures of God that we brought forth previously out of Isaiah: there are no other gods! But I want us to look further into one of those verses out of Isaiah that reveal something very interesting of what God says about "gods".

"Is there a God beside Me? yea, there is no God. I know not any." Is 44:8

Please note that God said He did not know any. Now see what Jesus said.

"Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?’ And then I will profess unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.’." Matt 7: 22-23

We go now from the Eastern philosophy of godhood to an insight into what Lake says about Eastern philosophies [which he said he studied]. Lake said,

"Many of the ancient philosophies have marvelous light. One of the Indian philosophies, Bhagavad, were written five hundred years before Isaiah. In it they predicted the coming of a Son of God, a Redeemer, who was to come and redeem mankind." Buddha presented his philosophy five hundred years before Jesus. Pythagoras wrote four thousand years before Christ. In each one you will find many of the teachings of Jesus.

The teachings of Jesus were not unique in that they were all new. They were new because they contained something that none of the rest possessed. It was the divine content in the word of Jesus Christ that gave his teachings their distinguishing feature from the other philosophies."20


After Lake’s first wife died, a woman with a bad eye contacted him. Lake said that the "Spirit" came over her while she was sitting in a chair. Lake gave this account;

"She arose from her chair, her eyes quite shut, and came in my direction. I got up and moved my chair. She walked right around and came to me. She slipped her fingers down, gave me a little chuck just like my late wife would have done, and said, ‘Jack, my Jack, God is with you all the time. Go right on. But my baby, my Teddy, I am so lonesome for him, but you pray so hard, you pray so hard’."21
According to Lake, this was his deceased wife talking to him. Also, according to Lake, there is nothing in the Word that says contacting the dead is wrong. Lake said,

"Listen, it is not dragging spirits up, and it isn’t dragging some spirits down. There is nothing about calling spirits down from God in the Word; only about calling them up out of the depths."22

"Now I want you to fix this in your mind. The blood washed always go there [3rd heaven] and if you ever talk to anyone that is over there you will GO TO THEM. They are not going to leave the throne, but they will say, ‘Brother, come up here’. That is the only way you will ever communicate with them."23



Since much of Lake's ministry was healing, and that is the focus of the prophesied revival, let’s start with this; sickness. Here are a few of Lake’s statements about this.

"It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods…."31

"What is sin? It is disease. It is dis-ease. He is not talking about sin, because if there is any sin in you it is not in your body. If there is any sin, it is in your spirit or in your soul, isn’t it? It is somewhere in your active thinking process…Sin is a broken physical law in your body…"32

"Do you know when my legs straightened out it taught me the beginning of one of the deepest lessons that ever came to my life. It taught me God did not appreciate a man with crooked legs any more than He does with a crooked soul."33

"The Christian, the child of God, the Christ-man, who has committed his body as well as his soul to God, ought not to be a subject for healing."34

"The reason people become sick is the same reason that they become sinful, the surrender to the suggestion of the thing that is evil…. The suggestion of oppression is presented, and becoming frightened, the disease secures a foothold. ‘In the Name of Jesus Christ I refuse to have this thing’."35

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Amazing how if you quote a line out of context it goves a whole new slant on what is said. I have yet to hear anything from Spen that encourages people to grow in faith and trust God for more than they are currently experiencing. "By their fruits...."

Lake had over 100,000 documented miracle healings in Spokane alone, not to mention Sth Africa and other places. "By their fruits...."

The second quote was in reference to the attitudes built into men, even without any knowledge of God, trying to be like God, and reclaim the dominion man was given in Genesis. Read the whole sermon.

Paul D

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

"The false prophets of Matt 7 were men who prophesied, did miracles and cast out demons "

Not true. Fruit = Righteousness Peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit. Miracles are valid evidences of the Working of God, which is why Jesus sadi on 3 occasions: "believe the miracles". This does NOT mean ALL miracles, as the Bible is clear that false miracles do occur. This is why Fruit is the issue.

The key issue, as Jesus makes clear, is being known by Him. But He also said: "Those who believe in me will do the works that I am doing."

"We are not commanded as men to reclaim our dominion over this earth and rule it for God now as part of the atonement. I believe this is a doctrine of demons and not God."

Then your flat wrong! Malachi 4, Matt 17:11, and similar all talk about "restoration" and Rev 3 talks about overcomers "Sit with me on my throne". Also Rom 8 "Sons of God" and following.

We are told to preach the gospel .....

Which Gospel? The evangelical Gospel "Jesus dies on the Cross"? The Pente gospel "Baptism of the Spirit"?

How about the one Jesus preached, about which He said: "THIS gospel will be preached in all the world and then the end will come". The one summarised in Isaiah and Luke 4: Good news, recovery of sight, freedom, year of favour. The one which is: "the Kingdom of Heaven is among you". How do we know the Kingdom is among us?

Because the manifest rule of God is healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, cleansing the lepers. Jesus commanded the 12, and later the 72, to do these things (Matt 10:7,8). And He later commanded them to "teach them to obey everything I have commanded you." It's quite simple. We are ALL called to do these things in the context of preaching the gospel. If we are not, then we are NOT preaching the gospel Jesus preached.

Paul D

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Amazing how if you quote a line out of context it goves a whole new slant on what is said. I have yet to hear anything from Spen that encourages people to grow in faith and trust God for more than they are currently experiencing. "By their fruits...."

Lake had over 100,000 documented miracle healings in Spokane alone, not to mention Sth Africa and other places. "By their fruits...."

The second quote was in reference to the attitudes built into men, even without any knowledge of God, trying to be like God, and reclaim the dominion man was given in Genesis. Read the whole sermon.

Paul D

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by moon_river_j

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Amazing how if you quote a line out of context it goves a whole new slant on what is said. I have yet to hear anything from Spen that encourages people to grow in faith and trust God for more than they are currently experiencing. "By their fruits...."

Lake had over 100,000 documented miracle healings in Spokane alone, not to mention Sth Africa and other places. "By their fruits...."

The second quote was in reference to the attitudes built into men, even without any knowledge of God, trying to be like God, and reclaim the dominion man was given in Genesis. Read the whole sermon.

Paul D

---

Paul,
You're absolutely right. I spoke out of my ignorance...too soon. Forgive me. I'm really quick (too quick) to believe what I read at times, without checking it out more thoroughly for myself. I'll read the rest of the thread tomorrow.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

---

quote:

---

[I know Roberts Lairdon has studied extensively what he calls "God's Generals" and their end results are a mixed bag. Even Lairdon himself has had failures. I still believe Lairdon's books on the generals are very informative. I believe God has truth to bring to us today, spoken through the lives of these men. John G Lake is one I haven't a major opinion about. I want to read his writing and not those coming with a critical and condemning spirit to dissuade me from learning.

Barry

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

Barry and Paul,

I am not saying that any of these men, Paul Cain, William Branham, Rick Joyner, Alexander Dowie, John G. Lake or even Roberts Lairdon never said anything good. I am saying that they didn't confess "Jesus as coming in the flesh" as central to their message. The gospel, meaning:
- the incarnation of the God/man.
- His sinless life.
- the sacrifice of this Anointed One, the Christ, on our behalf to pay for our sins when He had none.
- the promise of eternal life made to those who believe, which was proven in His own resurrection.
- the sufficiency of this message and His work to overcome sin.
This message isn't central to their ministries. While they may not deny it, it isn't what they confess and it isn't what they offer as a solution to the problems they describe in their hearers.

If we have a choice of where we are to go looking to understand God, to understand His Word and to approach Him on the terms and according to the way that He himself has defined, why would we go looking in corrupted bins to attempt to find some scrap of good? While I believe that God can use whatever method He wishes to to speak, I don't think it is expedient to establish a donkey ranch in order to find a prophetic one speaking for God. If we seek signs and spiritual power, we have explicit words in God's Word on the matter and His explicit answer.
“An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet."
I maintain that the sign of Jonah, preaching the gospel with the proof of the resurrection of Christ that once and for all proves that He is God and that His work was sufficienct (and that God still does raise people from the dead), this is what we should offer to those who seek for them.

I must say, I find it ironic that Roberts Lairdon is also a homosexual in light of his facination with signs and spiritual power. His book's title, "God's Generals," is indicative that he considered the ability to perform signs and miracles as synonymous with being a leader in the church. Nowhere in his book do we find one theologian or person that didn't claim supernatural powers. You will not find this concept in Paul's epistles as criteria for church leaders. The objective criteria in Titus and Timothy would exclude most of these people, in cluding Paul Cain and Roberts Lairdon himself.

I acknowledge that my words on this subject have been a "frontal assault" instead of soft. I have attempted not to mock, although I believe that there is biblical precedent to mock false prophets before the people of God as we find in the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Correction presented in this way typically doesn't bring change, however, because it requires something more on the part of the listeners to be able to "hear."

I am truly sorry that your appetites for "God" find satisfaction in these teachings and experiences.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

Barry,

It is clear from your posts that you don't beleive that the gospel needs to be central, I believe that scriptures tell us that it is. I believe that this is dangerous because it leaves you open to satisfy you appetite for God in what you feel to be God's present revelation brought to you by those who claim to be His prophetic voice. Moreover, you say we need all the power of the Holy Spirit to fight this fight, but you mean something more than faith in the gospel. It seems like you means supernatural signs or the ability to directly rebuke the evil forces you encounter and bring them unfer your dominion as we find in Jude. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that all Christians are equally anointed with the same Spirit. Beyond that, there is only one "anointed one" and that is the Christ. If we keep the gospel central and believe in it, we are dwelling in unity, there is no magical "unity power" that will be unleashed beyond the gospel.

You say, "If we are in discord and the world hears each Christian having widely varying practice, it pulls down our effectiveness." It is also true that if we tolerate the message of the gospel to be corrupted, then the salt will have lost its savor. We are not different because of a unity around a "spiritual expereince" as the Charismatics believe, we are different because of the love and gratitude that flows from understanding that our sins were forgiven and our debt paid by another. We are grateful to our Christ who died for us and so out of this gratitude we are empowered to love others.

I don't believe Paul or you, Paul Cain, Joyner or anybody on this site is "worse" or more evil than me. We are all sinful people in need of another's righteousness. I do believe that the teachings of the "modern prophetic" including Lake, Joyner, Cain, Jones, et al are wrong and attack the gospel they claim to believe.

OK SPEN...
I appreciate your humility. I disagree about the gospel being central(with God having no other emphases) and that these myraid of ministries being so off that you won't recommend or receive from any of them. Maybe it is just a blessing that I can get something holy from so many different messengers. I have learned that God will never absolve me from responsibility as I sit under various teachers...I still have to check the word and the spirit to be sure I am hearing a true sound from heaven. YOu seem to think I am in a dangerous place to walk this way. I feel excitement. I love to fellowship with God's people from all different camps. I love to hear their stories and share mine too. I feel or know in scipture no admonition not to go this way...so I'll keep on. We can still hold up the cross and the gospel and travel on as friends and brothers in Christ, yes?

Be blessed,
Barry

---

quote:

---

I appreciate your humility. I disagree about the gospel being central(with God having no other emphases) and that these myraid of ministries being so off that you won't recommend or receive from any of them. Maybe it is just a blessing that I can get something holy from so many different messengers. I have learned that God will never absolve me from responsibility as I sit under various teachers...I still have to check the word and the spirit to be sure I am hearing a true sound from heaven. You seem to think I am in a dangerous place to walk this way. I feel excitement. I love to fellowship with God's people from all different camps. I love to hear their stories and share mine too. I feel or know in scipture no admonition not to go this way...so I'll keep on. We can still hold up the cross and the gospel and travel on as friends and brothers in Christ, yes?

---

quote:

---

I am not saying that any of these men, Paul Cain, William Branham, Rick Joyner, Alexander Dowie, John G. Lake or even Roberts Lairdon never said anything good. I am saying that they didn't confess "Jesus as coming in the flesh" as central to their message. The gospel, meaning:
- the incarnation of the God/man.
- His sinless life.
- the sacrifice of this Anointed One, the Christ, on our behalf to pay for our sins when He had none.
- the promise of eternal life made to those who believe, which was proven in His own resurrection.
- the sufficiency of this message and His work to overcome sin.
This message isn't central to their ministries. While they may not deny it, it isn't what they confess and it isn't what they offer as a solution to the problems they describe in their hearers.

---