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Originally posted by pdaviesoz

I know men who regularly see miracles, and raising the dead is happening regularly in some areas. Muslim TV in Africa reported recently that they had "lost" several provinces in Mozambique because the christians were in there raising the dead. Reinhard Bonnke produced a recent video testifying about an African pastor who was dead 3 days.
The key to all miracles is Faith. God responds to our faith. unfortunately, in the West we have little idea what Faith is, and the difference betweeen true faith and what we have. in the last 3 years, since we were taught these truths, we have seen minor miracles happening with more and more frequency. Our friends see them regularly, as they are in the position of being able to travel around.
check out www.it-is-easy.org.
Put simply, faith is believing that Gos will do what he says he will do for us.

Blessings,,

Paul D

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Originally posted by pdaviesoz

It's not an easy topic to deal with, and I have struggled with this issue. The problem is, when you look at the Bible, its quite clear that if the Faith is there God will respond. I know that I don't yet have enough faith for my thumb to grow back overnight, but I'm praying "Help my unbelief".
Consider:
"All things are possible to those who believe."
"Faith the size of a mustard seed.....mountain cast yourself into the sea..."

....and many others. Have another look at the Gospels, since it is Jesus and His words that we're to follow, whereas I believe that much of our current teaching come from interpretations of the Epistles being applied to the Gospels.

Jesus said: "He who has seen me has seen the Father." Jesus healed all who came to him, the only exception being Nazareth where there Faith was lacking. If we want to know the Father's will about healing look at the life Jesus demonstrated.

Also: "By His stripes we ARE healed" and "he TOOK our sins and Carried our diseases".

My African friends are taught to believe the Bible, and they see miracles. We have been taught to question everything, and trust Doctors and human methods. We struggle to lay hold of faith and struggle to overcome diseases. I believe we need to seek the Lord in this area, or we will be in danger of fulfilling Jesus' question: "When the Son of Man returns will he find Faith on the earth."

Since we were taught these things, we are making progress, and are seeing healings, and experiencing the Father's blessing in many areas (though I am not quite completely finished with Hayfever, though I'm off medication). "If you know the truth, it will set you free". Its the truth that you KNOW that begins to work for you and bring the life of Christ into your earthly situation and change it.

Check out Victor's website: www.it-is-easy.org, and look into TB Joshua, where every disease you can imagine is being healed regularly. Our pastor went to Nigeria last year to check it out and its true. www.themaninthesynagogue.org.

Blessings,

Paul D

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Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Whenever people pray and God actually heals, maybe the reason is that God chose to perform miracles for some and not for others.

Back that up from the Bible.

Paul D

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Originally posted by lock
2. Most believers today believe that the "gifts" of the spirit were for the apostolic age only, and once the church was established, the gifts faded away.

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Originally posted by lock

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This amazingly ludicrous statement by Lock requires us to say that Pentecostals (one of the largest groups of Christians in the world, second only to Roman Catholicism) are not real "believers."

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John-
Where did I question Pentecostals' belief in Christ crucified, buried and resurrected again? I never stated Pentecostal's could not be true believers. I was only speaking of the "gifts" of the spirit and the outpouring of the spirit that was evident during the Apostolic age. I personally believe that there are "true believer" in every christian demonination.

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Originally posted by lock

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However, MOST believers today do NOT believe that the gifts of the Spirit were for the apostolic age only. Catholics, Orthodox, Pentecostals, and an increasing number of evangelicals all believe that God still works miracles and that the gifts of the Spirit are still operative in the Church.

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My intention was not to say that only those who hold to this certain belief (#2) are the only "true" believers. I was unaware that the Catholics and Orthodox christians believe, to the extent of Pentecostals, that today we are to speak in tongues, laugh in the holy ghost, be drunk in the spirit, etc. I grew up in a Catholic town and they never spoke of raising the dead and healing the sick to the extent of the Apostolic era. Miracles happen, but do you believe the spirit is being poured out to the extent that is was during the apostolic period? Are we talking only raising the dead healing, prophecy, tongues or are we also speaking of faith and love, which also are "gifts" of the spirit? Have some "gifts" faded and others not?

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Originally posted by pdaviesoz

There are some reports of people being raised from the dead through the prayers of Christians in modern times, but obviously, this sort of miracle would by definition have to be rare, or else the Scripture would be controverted, "it is appointed unto to mankind once to die, and after that the judgment."

This is a really dangerous assumption. Sickness and death is from the enemy. Life is from the Father, who "renews our youth."

What is wrong with dying in perfect health, because its your time, you've done the things you were put here to do and its time to go on? Why do christians simply assume that death should be associated with disease, frailty (?) etc.

How is the Glory of God going to be manifest throughout the world if these miracles are not increasing, as the works of the devil (sickness, disease, etc) are destroyed?God is a SUPERNATURAL being. He gets glory out of showing WHO HE IS in truth, by displaying His mighty power in providing supernatural solutions to problems. how can we claim to worship God if we steadfastly refuse to see Him as he is?

Jesus asked: "When the Son of Man returns will he find Faith on the earth?"
Faith is believing the Father will do what he says he will do!
"I am the Lord who heals you."
"He took our sins and carried our diseases."
"By his stripes we are healed"

we truly are Laodecian - we "think we are wealthy", but "we do not realise" that we "are wretched pitiful poor blind and naked".

Blessings,

Paul D

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Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Joanne,

I get where you're coming from. You are stating what most Westerners experience. I agree, but this is NOT what the Bible teaches. In Africa, where they have nothing except God to rely on, people see amazing miracles all the time. We are way too reliant on human methodology. Instead we need Faith, and we need to re-read the Bible for what it actually says, not our Western interpretation watering it down.

I've been reading up on John G Lake, who had a Smith Wigglesworth-type of ministry i the early 1900s. I'm discovering that the early Pentecostals had a far deeper faith and reliance on continual Holy Spirit communion than most modern Pentecostals are aware of. Hos sermons are awesome, and don't gloss over dealing with sin, but challenge christians to walk in holiness and to KNOW Jesus. They beleived that to see a doctor before you sought God was horribly wrong (which didn't mean they didn't use doctors). Their faith was in God first, and they pursued Him until they had a breakthrough. We give up too easily.

Blessings,

Paul D

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Originally posted by spenlake

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Originally posted by pdaviesoz

Joanne,

I get where you're coming from. You are stating what most Westerners experience. I agree, but this is NOT what the Bible teaches. In Africa, where they have nothing except God to rely on, people see amazing miracles all the time. We are way too reliant on human methodology. Instead we need Faith, and we need to re-read the Bible for what it actually says, not our Western interpretation watering it down.

I've been reading up on John G Lake, who had a Smith Wigglesworth-type of ministry i the early 1900s. I'm discovering that the early Pentecostals had a far deeper faith and reliance on continual Holy Spirit communion than most modern Pentecostals are aware of. Hos sermons are awesome, and don't gloss over dealing with sin, but challenge christians to walk in holiness and to KNOW Jesus. They beleived that to see a doctor before you sought God was horribly wrong (which didn't mean they didn't use doctors). Their faith was in God first, and they pursued Him until they had a breakthrough. We give up too easily.

Blessings,

Paul D

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The following link has an excellent article on John G. Lake and how his teachings and ministry have affected the "modern prophets" like Rick Joyner and Bob Jones.
http://www.crmspokane.org/lake.htm

I grew up believing in the spiritual greatness of men like Smith Wigglesworth. As part of our family devotional time, my father read us a biograpy on his life and ministry when I was 10 years old. Here are a few excerpts that consider Lake in Lake's own words.



From the above URL:
Lake’s sermons, statements and activities had many questionable and contradictory aspects to them. But there is one area in looking at this whole revival concept and Lake’s ministry, which is at the top that we need to address. It should be enough in itself to see the need to question the rest, if not reject it. It was uttered in the garden, Adam and Eve fell for it, and everything went sour after it. That was falling for the lie of lies.

You Can Be Like God

Let’s look at some of the things John G. Lake said.

"It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods. Jesus said, ‘I said ye are gods’ [John 10:34]. It is with the attitude of gods in the world that Jesus wants the Christian to live."12

"The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god."13

"I want you to hear what Jesus said about himself. God was in Christ, wasn’t He? An incarnation. God is in you, an incarnation, if you were born again. You are incarnate."14

"You are following in the footsteps of a God that says to the things that are not, and they become, and who says to the things that are and they stop being."15

"For God’s purpose through Jesus Christ is to deify the nature of men, and thus forever make them like unto,…Thus he becomes the Son of God, a Saviour and Redeemer forever."16

So, the foundation of Lake’s theology is laid, yet in opposition to the very scriptures of God that we brought forth previously out of Isaiah: there are no other gods! But I want us to look further into one of those verses out of Isaiah that reveal something very interesting of what God says about "gods".

"Is there a God beside Me? yea, there is no God. I know not any." Is 44:8
Please note that God said He did not know any. Now see what Jesus said.

"Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?’ And then I will profess unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.’." Matt 7: 22-23

We go now from the Eastern philosophy of godhood to an insight into what Lake says about Eastern philosophies [which he said he studied]. Lake said,

"Many of the ancient philosophies have marvelous light. One of the Indian philosophies, Bhagavad, were written five hundred years before Isaiah. In it they predicted the coming of a Son of God, a Redeemer, who was to come and redeem mankind." Buddha presented his philosophy five hundred years before Jesus. Pythagoras wrote four thousand years before Christ. In each one you will find many of the teachings of Jesus.

The teachings of Jesus were not unique in that they were all new. They were new because they contained something that none of the rest possessed. It was the divine content in the word of Jesus Christ that gave his teachings their distinguishing feature from the other philosophies."20


After Lake’s first wife died, a woman with a bad eye contacted him. Lake said that the "Spirit" came over her while she was sitting in a chair. Lake gave this account;

"She arose from her chair, her eyes quite shut, and came in my direction. I got up and moved my chair. She walked right around and came to me. She slipped her fingers down, gave me a little chuck just like my late wife would have done, and said, ‘Jack, my Jack, God is with you all the time. Go right on. But my baby, my Teddy, I am so lonesome for him, but you pray so hard, you pray so hard’."21
According to Lake, this was his deceased wife talking to him. Also, according to Lake, there is nothing in the Word that says contacting the dead is wrong. Lake said,

"Listen, it is not dragging spirits up, and it isn’t dragging some spirits down. There is nothing about calling spirits down from God in the Word; only about calling them up out of the depths."22

"Now I want you to fix this in your mind. The blood washed always go there [3rd heaven] and if you ever talk to anyone that is over there you will GO TO THEM. They are not going to leave the throne, but they will say, ‘Brother, come up here’. That is the only way you will ever communicate with them."23



Since much of Lake's ministry was healing, and that is the focus of the prophesied revival, let’s start with this; sickness. Here are a few of Lake’s statements about this.

"It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods…."31

"What is sin? It is disease. It is dis-ease. He is not talking about sin, because if there is any sin in you it is not in your body. If there is any sin, it is in your spirit or in your soul, isn’t it? It is somewhere in your active thinking process…Sin is a broken physical law in your body…"32

"Do you know when my legs straightened out it taught me the beginning of one of the deepest lessons that ever came to my life. It taught me God did not appreciate a man with crooked legs any more than He does with a crooked soul."33

"The Christian, the child of God, the Christ-man, who has committed his body as well as his soul to God, ought not to be a subject for healing."34

"The reason people become sick is the same reason that they become sinful, the surrender to the suggestion of the thing that is evil…. The suggestion of oppression is presented, and becoming frightened, the disease secures a foothold. ‘In the Name of Jesus Christ I refuse to have this thing’."35

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